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trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/25/2004 3:50 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Maybe leader(s) should express balance when speaking from the pulpit, but on an internet discussion board???

I want to take issue here. Name calling and labeling should not be tolerant ANYWHERE for they are not productive and cause DIVISION. But, hey, I believe in freedom of speech.

Here's my issue: If Greg Boyd, Mephi, Modes or anyone wants to be thought of as a bridge builder between people groups then their actions ought to be consistent in avoiding alienating people groups through judging and labeling. A division is created when any of us labels and stereotypes people into categories such as is the case by insinutating that all of us who voted Republican are "conservatives" "followers" "fundamentalists" etc. Personally, and I ONLY speak for myself Selah Wink

, I voted Bush with reservation but did so after MUCH prayer and thought. (Those who know me know that I have a heart for prayer)

BUT again, if Greg, Mephi, Modes... want to discriminate then by all means they are at liberty to do so, especially on their own web site, but then I would hope they would instead consider themselves a wee bit judgmental towards people such as myself hence in this case have created a division/wall. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that they are passionate about bringing about social understanding towards various minorities and are passionate about being missionaries for the hurting (which are great missions) but are not bridge building. That's where I am taking issue.

Perhaps the most growing thing to do in order to grow in the Spirit is first to admit that there is a bit of judgment going on. Admit that when we judge people we alienate them. Admit that when we alienate people we create division and walls. And admit walls do not bring people together but rather separate. Bridge building is not achievable until the judgment is worked through.

I do not want to be me against you. I want to work through a concern. I want to find resolution. I want there to be peace on earth and I want it to begin with us dear brothers and sisters in Christ! Kisses

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/25/2004 5:26 PM (GMT -6)

Moderators second cousin

quote:
I consider there's a Chinese wall* between WHC and CVM and don't think anything about WHC should be discussed through CVM. Shall we discuss your places of employment through this website as well?

Well, that is a great point to bring up for the future but with this issue the can is already opened up. Shall we proceed???

The point is well taken, however. Perhaps from now on there should be a rule for this web site that no one is allowed to discuss things that have been brought up at or relate to Woodland Hills (Unless they also are willing to talk about their place of employment Wink

- just teasing)

I am in many respects sorry for having brought this up. I was hoping to shed some light on some of the comments made against those of us who voted for Bush but in the midst of this discussion am fearful that I may have been too open. I am sorry if I have created a wall in the midst of trying to bring up this concern. Sleepy

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 11/26/2004 3:42 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

CVM is NOT the official website of WHC and I don't expect ANYONE to express anything other than what they think on an internet discussion board.

The following is taken straight from the CVM home page:
Greg Boyd’s sermons are broadcast at 12:30 p.m. weekdays on the “Tearing Down Walls” program on AM980 KKMS Interactive Christian Talk Radio.

I don't think the CVM discussion board is an inappropriate place for Trosie to ask questions in regards to Dr. Boyd's sermons.

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 11/26/2004 3:51 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by trosie
...
Here's my issue: If Greg Boyd, Mephi, Modes or anyone wants to be thought of as a bridge builder between people groups then their actions ought to be consistent in avoiding alienating people groups through judging and labeling. A division is created when any of us labels and stereotypes people into categories such as is the case by insinutating that all of us who voted Republican are "warmongers" "conservatives" "followers" etc. Personally, and I ONLY speak for myself Selah, I voted Bush with reservation but did so after MUCH prayer and thought. (Those who know me know that I have a heart for prayer)

Hi Trosie,

I think "warmonger" was a word I used exclusively. If it can't be used as I used it, IN THE CONTEXT I used it, please don't drag it over here. I did not use it as a label.

Thanks.

peace and love,
selah

"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."

Scout Cloud Lee

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/26/2004 4:08 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
I think "warmonger" was a word I used exclusively. If it can't be used as I used it, IN THE CONTEXT I used it, please don't drag it over here. I did not use it as a label.

Thank you for pointing that out -- I removed that from my post.

Love,
trosie Kisses

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/26/2004 4:20 AM (GMT -6)

Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Do you want to discuss real thoughts or listen to canned scripts

You brought up some good points yet I also believe that Sparknheart is correct to an extent in that Greg does use this web site to promote WHC and his sermons so in that I am not off. Would you agree?

I do believe that people should be free to express themselves here BUT that should also include ME. Do you want people, such as myself, to keep things in or bring them to light to HOPEFULLY bring about resolution? Are my concerns not appropriate on this web site? Do I have the freedom to speak my concerns when strong accusations are being made against people such as myself? Please help me (and perhaps others) to understand the guidelines more clearly.

Thank you. Smile

trosie

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/26/2004 6:10 AM (GMT -6)

I'm looking for clarity, Jefscott. Can you help me? Shy

jefscott said: "I think Doc thinks government is used by God providentially only. That is, government, per Doc, has NO divinely delegated authority. And if I'm correct, that kind of explains where Doc is coming from."

trosie: Notice the bolded word.

jefscott said: "To clarify, let me say that I disagree with Doc's view of government as I understand it. But it doesn't follow from that view that NOTHING good comes of government. But I suspect that Doc believes even better things would come if Christians pursued his model of "activism"."

trosie: I'm confused? Dead

In your understanding do think Doc would say that NO good or SOME good comes from our involvement in changing government policies and laws for godly purposes?

Thanks,
trosie Smile

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 11/26/2004 11:33 AM (GMT -6)

Trosie,

quote:
I'm looking for clarity, Jefscott. Can you help me?

jefscott said: "I think Doc thinks government is used by God providentially only. That is, government, per Doc, has NO divinely delegated authority. And if I'm correct, that kind of explains where Doc is coming from."

trosie: Notice the bolded word.

jefscott said: "To clarify, let me say that I disagree with Doc's view of government as I understand it. But it doesn't follow from that view that NOTHING good comes of government. But I suspect that Doc believes even better things would come if Christians pursued his model of "activism"."

trosie: I'm confused? In your understanding do think Doc would say that NO good or SOME good comes from our involvement in changing government policies and laws for godly purposes?

I really hate speaking for Doc, but only do so in defense of his motives. But to answer your question, I think, from what I've read of his view, that Doc thinks some good comes from government, but that government has NO divinely delegated authority - or at least that Christians have no right to partake in any such authority, since government is FORCE. I may be wrong, but that's how I read him. And again, I'm DEFENDING his motives, which I felt were being questioned in this thread.

I, on the other hand, believe that government has divinely delegated authority to praise well-doers and put fear in evil-doers. That they are not particularly successful is irrelevant to the legitimacy of their delegated authority - just as an unsuccessful parent still HAS divinely delegated authority over his/her child. And a government, as well as a parent, can forfeit it's authority when it usurps the authority of God. As Peter said, "Shall we obey men rather than God?" That being the case, I think that Christians CAN legitimately be part of government, but that it can be extremely difficult to retain one's integrity therein.

wjs

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 11/26/2004 11:57 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by trosie

quote:
I think "warmonger" was a word I used exclusively. If it can't be used as I used it, IN THE CONTEXT I used it, please don't drag it over here. I did not use it as a label.

Thank you for pointing that out -- I removed that from my post.

Love,
trosie

Thanks Trosie, I appreciate it.

Blessings,
selah

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/26/2004 12:30 PM (GMT -6)

jefscott

quote:
And again, I'm DEFENDING his motives, which I felt were being questioned in this thread.

I am sorry if I questioned his motives. I highly respect Dr. Boyd. Truly I am in process here. I HOPE that if one thing is conveyed through my posts it is that I am NOT trying to cause division or judge people but rather I am trying to make sense out of what I know to be some goals at WHC verses some attitudes I have seen exhibited on this board that are counter-productive to meeting these goals.

I personally am trying to make sense out of the whole sermon series “The Cross and the Sword”; the bashing of President Bush and those who voted for him by some on this thread; and the laws that have been passed through citizens taking action to make them happen through becoming involved in government (ex. equal rights) How does it all fit together?! How is it consistent to judge those who voted for Bush, and to judge Bush, yet say that we should not be focused on government and not judge? How is it consistent to want to be a cavalier in bridging differences yet at the same time criticize and name call people who voted a certain way.

I am in process on this. It is important to me. Thanks for your feedback, Jefscott.

trosie Smile

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 11/27/2004 1:18 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
How is it consistent to judge those who voted for Bush, and to judge Bush, yet say that we should not be focused on government and not judge?

Right on.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

ataraxia
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 67

Posted 11/27/2004 2:12 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Trosie: The point is well taken, however. Perhaps from now on there should be a rule for this web site that no one is allowed to discuss things that have been brought up at or relate to Woodland Hills...

There actually is a rule in place that states just this ya'll. I wondered whether or not I should have jumped in after the openning post of this thread with just a word of encouragement regarding where it ought to go. It looked like it could develop into a purely issues related discussion springing out of Greg's sermons. That's cool. It's OK to discuss issues people preach on; impossible not to do so actually. But I worried that it would become a discussion of WHC's policy, philosophy of ministry, or that of particular members of their staff. We want to stay clear of that. So, for the future, let's keep it an "issues" related discussion (faith and politics is a great subject) and not a "persons" related one.

Thanks,
ataraxia

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 11/27/2004 2:23 PM (GMT -6)

Trosie,

I found this post by Sahid which quotes Doc on government. Hope this helps.

I found this on an old topic posted by Doc. I now understand better where you're coming from. I am going to argue that these points make a better case for libertarian activism than for withdrawl from politics.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I. The Demand for a King Was a Rejection of GOD

II. Jesus teaches us that the way of life among his disciples is to be radically different from the way of the governments of the world.

III. All the kingdoms of this world are depicted in Scripture as at odds with God, and in the end he shall bring them to ruin.

IV. The nations are God’s ministers of judgement. He uses them in their wickedness to carry out his plans.

V. Even though God uses them to his own advantage, ALL the kingdoms of this world belong to the Devil and are controlled by him.

VI. We cannot serve two masters and we are not to worry about the welfare of our life. What is human government about if not rallying the allegiance of people to improve the affairs of our life (ironically, inevitably resulting in the killing of those who threaten this ideology)?

VII. Jesus and the rest of the NT teaches us to pay taxes "so that we do not give offense" to the government, but to know all the while that we are NOT "children" of the government: we are free.

VIII. Jesus taught that his kingdom was not of this world.

IX. We are to understand that we are citizens of heaven. Our allegiance is to be to the Lord of heaven. We are soldiers in his army and thus strangers, aliens, in this present world age.

X. Babylon in Revelation is a symbol of all earthly governmental power. ALL nations are intoxicated with this power. Christians are called to "come out of her."

XI. The teachings of Jesus, and the entire New Testament, forbid believers participating in any program that involves vengeance against enemies.

wjs

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 11/27/2004 2:26 PM (GMT -6)

Any room at all for "righteousness exalts a nation..."? Does that fit in anywhere?

Tom

orphan child
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 68

Posted 11/27/2004 5:59 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
VI. We cannot serve two masters and we are not to worry about the welfare of our life. What is human government about if not rallying the allegiance of people to improve the affairs of our life (ironically, inevitably resulting in the killing of those who threaten this ideology)?

This is neither inevitable nor universal.

Who was killed when water was fluoridated?
Who was killed when churches got tax exempt status?
And a ba-zillion other examples...
Land grant colleges, casino rights to reservations, FHA loans, arpanet, madman drummers, bummers, indians in the summer....

illegitimate child (now orphaned) of Miss Manners (now deceased)

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/27/2004 7:06 PM (GMT -6)

Jefscott, thanks for the post by Doc. I recall that sermon. I agree with Greg in that we are to be first and foremost Kingdom of God people. "Seek FIRST the Kingdom of God....."

Ataraxia thanks for pointing out that there are rules for this board -- I haven't been posting too much so I hadn’t thought of particular rules. Sorry! Blush

I will be happy to abide and will try to stay clear of bringing into the discussion WHC's policy, philosophy of ministry, or that of particular members of their staff. Please know that my intention was to bring up a concern but not to nit pick.

TGB, I'm not sure where you're going with this: "Any room at all for "righteousness exalts a nation..."?" Shy

Orphan Child

quote:
VI. We cannot serve two masters and we are not to worry about the welfare of our life. What is human government about if not rallying the allegiance of people to improve the affairs of our life (ironically, inevitably resulting in the killing of those who threaten this ideology)?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is neither inevitable nor universal.

Who was killed when water was fluoridated?
Who was killed when churches got tax exempt status?
And a ba-zillion other examples...
Land grant colleges, casino rights to reservations, FHA loans, arpanet, madman drummers, bummers, indians in the summer....

Greg has such a heart for the Kingdom of God that I’d love to hear him address your post. I am stuck on Greg's blanket statements about Christianity and politics and would love to seek resolution. I wish he would participate so we could gain more insight from his views on this. In regard to this.... the issue I am having the most difficulty with is how cut and dry Greg has stated things. I’m confused. Government has passed MANY great bills and many of the changes we have are directly a result of Christian civilians taking an interest in the laws. BJS, I am sure you agree.

I began this thread because I felt that there wasn't a balance coming from some of those who post on here and this labeling concerned me because a bridge that isn't balanced won't be able to hold the weight put on it. It saddened me that those who voted for Bush were being labeled/categorized. When I voted I did so after much prayer. I thought about who for ME would be the best option available. I feel it is a privilege that we live in a country where we are given the freedom to participate in our government instead of being under a dictatorship. I honor and respect whatever others chose to do in voting and would ask that my choice be honored and respected as well by not hearing people name call and label those who voted for President Bush. This is where I believe we should be totally focused on the Kingdom of God. God wants us to love one another in thought, word, and deed. Kisses

God's blessings,
trosie

Shine
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 24

Posted 11/28/2004 10:23 AM (GMT -6)

I have a heart for the unborn, and a heart for the victims of war. I also have a heart for the people who don't know the love of God. I pray that we all can come together and pray for them.

Sincerely,

Shine

Mayflower
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445

Posted 11/28/2004 1:54 PM (GMT -6)

Amen.
I understand the language of your heart...

Shine wrote:

quote:
I have a heart for the unborn, and a heart for the victims of war.
I also have a heart for the people who don't know the love of God.
I pray that we all can come together and pray for them.

Sincerely,

Shine

==========================================

EXCERPTED FROM ANOTHER CVM THREAD:

Sahid wrote:

quote:
Why is it that I can talk about any random thing I please and people will discuss with me, but as soon as I talk about anything related to politics or voting no one has anything to say? It's happened a couple times now. You can talk about being loving, but you can't talk about how to use our vote lovingly....

07/04/2004:

Mayflower replied:
.

quote:
Some are quiet because they know they'll get "whacked" if they voice
their views.

POLITICS:

It's a divisive issue -- especially amongst brothers & sisters in Christ who
have differing worldviews regarding what it means -- to use ones vote "lovingly."

It may genuinely surprise a few folks to learn that:

YES, there are Pro-LIFE Democrats; and
YES, there are Republicans who are Christian -- and (for whatever reason) have chosen to end a pregnancy through abortion.

Indeed -- there really are Christians who are both progressive in their political views (advocating for real-life solutions to homelessness, poverty, racism, etc.); AND conservative in their theology.

The two can and do co-exist very nicely.

I "vote my conscience."
Not easy when a person believes in The Sanctity of Life (ALL life!); while
ONE political party supports abortion and
THE OTHER political party supports the death penalty.

Can I endorse the plank-by-plank political platform of either
major political party??
In good conscience, I cannot.

Therefore, each time I enter a voting booth to cast my ballot, I feel like I am faced with choosing between -- the lesser of two evils.

(Okay. I made myself vulnerable. Whack me. And then -- listen to the deafening silence that results).

.

SEE:
Christus Victor Ministries Discussion: It's quiet. Too quiet.
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3424&whichpage=1
.

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/28/2004 5:34 PM (GMT -6)

Shine and Mayflower,

Just to make sure you understand my intention for starting this thread.... I agree with standing in unity to pray. And, Mayflower, just like you I too go into the voting booth with the knowledge that I am basically choosing between what “I” feel is the lesser of two evils. The hardest part for me is that I do not know the candidates outside of what they portray.

The reason I started this thread was due to MY feeling labeled and judged due to how I voted. I am concerned that when we alienate (any of us) we are NOT statisfying the job of building unity and bridging gaps.

Thank you,
trosie Smile

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/6/2004 10:50 PM (GMT -6)

It's been almost about two weeks since Mephi posted on here. Hmmmm. I'm wondering how long he was going out of town for? Mephi? Are you reading this? Are you back yet? I'm still waiting and haven't given up hope of hearing from you. Shy

On the other hand I have given up hope that I will hear from Greg Boyd or Modes. I don't take it personally necessarily but it is too bad that they did not have the time to address my concern on here. Sad

I know how busy life can get, however -- especially this time of year.

I am appreciative that I was able to express my concern instead of holding it in. I've learned some things from this experience. I've learned that discussing WHC policies/philosophies or bringing up staff is out of bounds on this forum. I've learned that there is a bit of prejudice in all of us --though the ultimate goal is to bring our prejudice to light and truth. I've experienced what it feels like to be labeled and categorized because of voting a certain way. I have experienced, through this concern, what it feels like to be judged and I know that I too am guilty at times of judging. This will help me to STOP the next time I want to label or categorize a person that is different from myself. This experience has helped me to better understand why some people groups fight so hard for their rights for individuality. It has given me a deeper understanding of why it is so important to get our life from Christ and NOTHING else. We are ALL individually and wonderfully made! Smile

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/14/2004 5:05 AM (GMT -6)

Yo,

Sorry it's been awhile, y'all. Things are consistently crazy. Here's the thing. I just don't have time to do all the typing to get my answers on the table. But I don't want to keep you waiting any longer than I already have. What I would like to do--if you wouldn't mind, Trosie--is get some email correspondence, set up and time, and then talk face-to-face about this. I can go point-by-poin and talk about it much faster than I can type all my stuff out. If you're down for this...

yielded@hotmail.com

Later,
Evil

PS: Selah, I'd like to talk to you too about your earlier question. You know you need to holla at me ANYWAYS....heh. Hit me up.

Big Smile

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/14/2004 12:16 PM (GMT -6)

Hi Mephi,

I would be open to talking face to face instead of via the board. Cool

I can understand not wanting to type everything up -- it definitely can be time consuming! I am wondering, however, if others would like to be in on the conversation and if so it might still be easier to discuss this on the board (although more time consuming for you)

I guess that I would like to ask if there is anyone else who would like to correspond with Mephi about this topic? If not, I will set up a time with Mephi off the board to talk. I will await responses before proceeding.

Mephi, since we are coming upon the holidays perhaps waiting until next year (2005) would be best.

Thank you for your continued heart in wanting to help me understand. I appreciate it!
trosie Smile

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 12/14/2004 3:23 PM (GMT -6)

trosie,

quote:
I guess that I would like to ask if there is anyone else who would like to correspond with Mephi about this topic? If not, I will set up a time with Mephi off the board to talk. I will await responses before proceeding.

I'm certainly curious as to Meph's thoughts, but perhaps he'll trust you to type them for him. Eyebrow

wjs

justvisiting
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 12

Posted 12/14/2004 9:24 PM (GMT -6)

Trosie,

This post is very interesting to me. Could you please share with me some? I no longer attend Woodland Hills and am intersted in these particular sermons that you mentioned. Did Greg Boyd speak against George Bush and in favor of John Kerry? Were there comments made putting down those who voted for Bush? That is what it sounds like. I am surprised, yet unforunately, also not surprised. I voted for Bush, but not at all with the hesitation that it seems you had. Rather, I enthusiastically voted for him and prayed very earnestly that Kerry would be defeated. It seems apparant from your comments that Boyd and the others were pro John Kerry and anti- George Bush. Is this true? How unsettling it is to hear this.

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/15/2004 1:57 AM (GMT -6)

Jefscott

quote:
I'm certainly curious as to Meph's thoughts, but perhaps he'll trust you to type them for him.

This is why I am hesistant to meet with Mephi face to face -- I feel that there are others, such as yourself, who are interested in what he, Greg Boyd, and Modes have to say in regard to some of the comments presented to us on this board. I could NOT do justice to Mephi's thoughts but I sure could try to share them with everyone if this is the only means available -- we'll see what Mephi has to say in response.

Justvisiting

quote:
This post is very interesting to me. Could you please share with me some? I no longer attend Woodland Hills and am intersted in these particular sermons that you mentioned. Did Greg Boyd speak against George Bush and in favor of John Kerry? Were there comments made putting down those who voted for Bush? That is what it sounds like. I am surprised, yet unforunately, also not surprised. I voted for Bush, but not at all with the hesitation that it seems you had. Rather, I enthusiastically voted for him and prayed very earnestly that Kerry would be defeated. It seems apparant from your comments that Boyd and the others were pro John Kerry and anti- George Bush. Is this true? How unsettling it is to hear this.

I feel that I have opened a can of worms that the moderators do not want discussed on this web site. You might be interested to listen to Greg's sermons from his 'Cross and the Sword' series. I don't know how Greg voted and he never advocated for or against any candidate. He has made it clear that he does not want to be involved in the kingdom of this world but rather wants to focus on the Kingdom of God. The series was interesting and gave me a fresh perspective about where to focus my attention... Go to the WHC web site if you want to download any of his sermons on this topic.

My main concern in bringing up this thread was due to some of the comments that Greg Boyd, Modes, and Mephi have made on this board regarding George Bush. Through some of the things that were said I felt they were causing division rather than unity within the body of Christ. I know there was division being created because I felt defensive within myself about how I voted and I was not a person who had been passionate about either candidate. I cannot imagine how some might have felt if they were strong Bush supporters. My main concern was that the comments against Bush were not productive in bringing about unity and bridge building.

Thanks,
trosie

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