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BJS
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 12/15/2004 4:25 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
My main concern in bringing up this thread was due to some of the comments that Greg Boyd, Modes, and Mephi have made on this board regarding George Bush. Through some of the things that were said I felt they were causing division rather than unity within the body of Christ. I know there was division being created because I felt defensive within myself about how I voted and I was not a person who had been passionate about either candidate. I cannot imagine how some might have felt if they were strong Bush supporters. My main concern was that the comments against Bush were not productive in bringing about unity and bridge building.

This is precisely the concern I have. Loved the Cross and the Sword series. Very challenging and convicting. Unfortunately, however, some of the comments made by Mephi, Modes and Greg in the direct aftermath of the election last month seemed highly inconsistent with the apolitical theme of the sermon series.

By the way, I love all these guys, and have found each of them truly wonderful human beings. This "disagreement" won't change that. Big Smile

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/15/2004 5:55 AM (GMT -6)

Hmmm...

Actually, I WAS hoping that perhaps Trosie would want to post some (if not most) of our discussion here. I was going to suggest that actually. I figured I could spend the time necessary with Trosie to clarify everything and she could put stuff in her own words. It's sometimes easier to do this stuff in dialogue. (You can get clarification so much easier in a convo than in a "post-response" way!) And this way, everyone would see my points FROM HER PERSPECTIVE. There's actually something to be said for that.

So, I'd like to do it that way...if at all possible. If anything needs to be clarified from her statements, I can do that. I think this will save us ALL some time in the long run.

Thoughts, Trosie?

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/15/2004 6:32 AM (GMT -6)

BJS

quote:
By the way, I love all these guys, and have found each of them truly wonderful human beings. This "disagreement" won't change that.

AMEN! I ditto that. Smile

Mephi

quote:
Actually, I WAS hoping that perhaps Trosie would want to post some (if not most) of our discussion here

That works for me. Mephi, I will email you to set up a time that works for us to meet. I look forward to finding clarity and understanding through this.

I will "attempt" to post what we discuss after we meet but you may need to edit or restate some of it -- I'm no reporter ya know. Tongue

Thanks,
trosie

BJS
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 12/15/2004 7:53 AM (GMT -6)

I'm all for whatever y'all want to do, but in my humble opinion, if the intent of this conversation is for more than the two of you to be involved in it, then why have a conversation and then try to describe it to everyone else? Why not just have the conversation along with everyone else?

But, whatever, I'm cool. Bandit

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 12/15/2004 7:57 AM (GMT -6)

I would like a summary as well. Big Smile

Ross

"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/15/2004 8:08 AM (GMT -6)

BJS and Rossfadeinout,
I am willing to discuss this either way. I know there are others who are interested in what Mephi (as well as Doc and Modes) have to say and that is why I wasn't sure meeting would be best BUT Mephi feels he can convey this better in person than in words....

Mephi, if there is more interest than just with myself -- wouldn't it be best to discuss this on the board? Couldn't perhaps you, Greg, and Modes write out a response (couldn't you each find a little time?) and post your responses here for ALL to read? I think this would be so helpful for many. Ya'll don't even need to discuss or debate your responses but they would be beneficial. I believe there is an interest. What do you think of that?

Again, I am open either way.

Thanks,
trosie

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/15/2004 9:05 AM (GMT -6)

My main concern was time. I don't have a lot of it. And that which I do have, I'm trying to be wise about it's allocation. I'm not sure but that's probably a big reason why Doc and Modes aren't posting. I figured I could condense some things this way. I wanted to try to get as much clarity in as short a time as possible, without being to reductionistic. Tell you what. I'll just carve out some time and try to do it. Maybe it's be better in the long run to do it that way. Yeah...I'll just do it that way...

justvisiting
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 12

Posted 12/15/2004 4:00 PM (GMT -6)

Trosie,
Could you please tell me where I could find the comments you are referring to? I am very interested in reading them. I left Woodland Hills for a reason, G. Boyd and his beliefs being the main reason. I don't say this to stir things up, but to simply share where I am coming from. To be honest, I'm not surprised that there were divisive comments made that subtly bashed G. Bush, a man who I regard as a very God-fearing man. I also believe that while we are to be concerned with the kingdom of God, we also need to make our voices heard in government. I thank God for godly leaders such as President Bush, and others in government who fight for things like the sanctity of life, the protection of marriage, the safety of our nation, and the list goes on. It's hard for me to understand the position of a pastor being that of being pro-Kerry, a man who had very ungodly world views and values, but like I said, I left WHC.

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 12/15/2004 4:52 PM (GMT -6)

Justvisiting, I want to make something perfectly clear. I am not interested in a conversation in which Greg Boyd or WHC is attacked. I'm sure Trosie isn't interested in such a conversation, either. I am interested in a very humble and respectful dialogue about some of the ideas put forth in Greg's excellent Cross and the Sword series. If you find Greg's ideas so offensive that you would leave his church, then why, pray tell, would you find it necessary to be on this website searching for more material to criticize? Just move on and leave him alone.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I'm just plain weary of the way some people seem to go after Greg.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/15/2004 5:13 PM (GMT -6)

Justvisiting,

I do not recall which specific posts any of them made comments on but if you do a search perhaps you will be able to find the particulars you are looking for.

To be honest, I can see how people could vote on both sides -- it all depends on where each person felt most passionate. I know of great Christian folks who felt passionate on both sides of the debate for differing reasons. As with all things there is no black and white.

I must say that I agree with Greg in that we are to be utmost focused on the Kingdom of God. I do not believe Greg Boyd necessarily tells people that Christians are never called into politics but I do believe that he has been trying to get people to focus on LOVING above all else. I believe what his passion has been about is to get people out of the mentality of believing that "America" is the savior of the world. I believe he has been trying to get people to see that we have brothers and sisters living in Iraq and that every person is loved by God thus is to be loved by us. I believe this has been his passion in the whole thing. Yet I believe that in trying to make his point some of "us" have been attacked through blanket statements that have been made.

I believe that when Greg was referring to Hitler on another thread he was actually trying to help all of us to understand and take caution that when Christians become too confident in a leader to lead the way they can be led astray. I "think" Greg was sharing that it is scary how Christians as a whole have put so much stock in President Bush because it has been a pattern in history that this type of patriotism to a leader has led to destructive ends.

I understand not putting anyone on a pedestal yet in the way that things have been expressed by Greg, Mephi, Modes -- they had labeled people who voted for Bush as being "fundamental" "conservative" "Republicans" Since I voted for Bush I felt attacked and felt a defensiveness building inside and this is exactly what leads to division. This concerned me hence I decided to express my concern because I care about WHC. I WANT to see unity and acceptance among the body. I pray that we can be a body that is known to the world as a people who LOVE. When labels are thrown out or people are categorized I feel this can be equally as scary.

Hope this helps,
trosie

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/15/2004 5:16 PM (GMT -6)

BJS

quote:
Sorry to be so blunt, but I'm just plain weary of the way some people seem to go after Greg.

I agree. I HOPE that Greg does not feel that I am going after him. I respect Greg Boyd very much -- he has helped me grow in huge ways. I am only trying to express a concern that I had with the hopes of bringing about understanding/resolution.

Jim Mottl
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57

Posted 12/15/2004 5:43 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal

I also want to respond to this, as I get time…

Jim:
Never once did Greg mention anything about the civil rights movement, which the government passed laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of skin color. So, did that get accomplished by the Kingdom of God or by the Kingdom of the World? So then Greg must agree that, according to his sermons, those people were wasting their time by holding signs and marches. Because he said that the people down at the Capital holding signs for the marriage ammendment rally were wasting their time because nobody is going to change someones heart by holding a sign, that to rely on the government to pass laws to change a behavior or in this case to prevent a behavior, is a waste of time. Nothing about the civil rights movement.

Oh, yes. We definitely must talk about that.

justvisiting
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 12

Posted 12/15/2004 6:10 PM (GMT -6)

Trosie,

Would it be fair to say that you find the words "Republican," "conservative," and "fundamental" offensive, or perhaps when they were spoken by the men you mention, they had negative connotations to them? I consider myself to be all of the above: Rep., cons., fund., but don't find offense if someone labels me those things; however, I also know that when some people use these labels, they do so with a certain connotation, implying that these lables describe intolerant, uptight persons.

I had no luck doing a search but will try again.

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 12/15/2004 6:32 PM (GMT -6)

Trosie, you are expressing yourself very, very well. I think you have set a very healthy and loving tone for this discussion. Ditto from my end. Thanks.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/15/2004 6:40 PM (GMT -6)

justvisiting

quote:
Would it be fair to say that you find the words "Republican," "conservative," and "fundamental" offensive, or perhaps when they were spoken by the men you mention, they had negative connotations to them?

I did NOT vote because I am fundamental (I am not sure that I am), nor did I vote because I am a Republican (I don't hold to any one particular party), nor did I vote due to being conservative (I know I'm not that) I voted the way I did due to my passion for the unborn who have NO voice of their own and neither candidate was that outstanding in my opinion.

I entered into the campaign and Presidential debates with an open mind. I attended parties thrown by Democrats as well as Republicans and listened. I prayed and sorted out my own value system before making my decision. I did not do so because I was a Republican, fundamentalist, nor a conservative so when I read some comments made I thought that it was unfair and unwarranted.

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 12/15/2004 6:40 PM (GMT -6)

This whole thing points out in bold relief the inescapable sheer hypocrisy of the "love, not judgment" approach to Christian living. In comparing Bush to Hitler, how Greg was NOT judging him and being very unloving towards him is simply beyond my comprehension. (Not to mention it being a completely unfair and unreasonable judgment on top of all that).

It appears they can dish it out but they can't take it. Typical of the "love, not judgment" malarkey. It really can't be any other way with that philosophy, really.

How is judging judgers not judging? How is calling those who voted Republican "Nazis" NOT judging them?

StickmewithaforkI'mdone.

John Earp, the BushNazi. Borg1

http://revivaltheology.net

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/15/2004 6:45 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks so much, BJS. That means a lot. Smile

I believe EACH person has the right to vote the way THEY want without being labeled or judged. Heck, if God gives us freedom to choose I believe we owe that to each other.

justvisiting
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 12

Posted 12/15/2004 6:56 PM (GMT -6)

Trosie, thanks. I believe I understand better the basis of your concern (having not heard the series or read the comments you have refered to).

Jee, let me repeat what you said. Greg compared Bush to Hitler. Is this true? Could you please point me in the direction where I could find this comment? As much as I disagree with Greg Boyd, I find this hard to believe (although I do believe it but would like to read it for myself). Or was this said in a church service?

Out of curiosity, how did it make you feel when you heard it? Did it change your opinion of Boyd at all, or cause you to feel the division that Trosie feels? Do you attend WHC?

From what I hear, it sounds as if you are "disgusted" with Greg's comments re: Bush, but I might be reading more into your comments.

Also, you mentioned that those who voted Republics were called "Nazis?" Is that a refernce that Boyd and others made? I am truly astounded if this is the case.

Thank you.

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 12/15/2004 6:59 PM (GMT -6)

http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3804&whichpage=1
Here's the famous GregBoyd quote from the other thread:

quote:

ANYONE who declares his nation is "the light of the world" and that "darkness" will "not overcome it" is SCARY... I always thought Jesus -- not America, or political freedom, or anything or anyone else -- was "the light." Yet, I heard no Christian except Wallis cry out "Blasphemy" when this was spoken by Bush. And THEN we hear that the only sure way to peace is for OTHER nations to accept demoncracy -- the light of the world. So, we'ze going to get evangelistic bout this! Shoudl be interesting. Say hello again to the crusades (he used THAT word too).

I honestly don't care much for Bush or Kerry or Nader or Ronald McDonald (my favorite). But the relationship between Bush and the Evangelical Right is, in my opinion, very very scary. Its not TOO FAR from the relationship of conservative Christians to another notorious quasi religious politician in Germany not too long ago.

When religious faith and nationalistic pride get fused, nothing but demonic stuff is going to result. In all history, this has never resulted in anything but massive massive bloodshed and the further desecrationn of the reputation of Christ. No exceptions. NONE.

Hang on. This isn't going to be pretty.
Greg

A fair reading of the speech Wallis was referring to will reveal that GWB has been taken extremely out of context by liberal bias. That smart people like Doc could fall for this pile of crap is a study in the psychology of ideological blind spots.

John

http://revivaltheology.net

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 12/15/2004 7:08 PM (GMT -6)

Hi justivisiting,

quote:
Originally posted by justvisiting
Did it change your opinion of Boyd at all, or cause you to feel the division that Trosie feels?

It didn't change my opinion of him at all; that has pretty much been formed in the past couple of years since I've been frequenting this website.

quote:
Do you attend WHC?

No. I would no doubt not be welcome there. Black Eye

According to the "love, not judgment" crowd, I'm not even a real Christian, because I don't tow their unscriptural and patently absurd "love, not judgment" line. Big Smile

Christians are to "judge righteous judgment," according to Jesus Christ. And Jesus said some things that would be considered VERY judgmental and "hurtful" by lots of folks today.

quote:
From what I hear, it sounds as if you are "disgusted" with Greg's comments re: Bush, but I might be reading more into your comments.

That would be putting it mildly.

quote:
Also, you mentioned that those who voted Republics were called "Nazis?" Is that a refernce that Boyd and others made? I am truly astounded if this is the case.

Read it for yourself on the other thread I linked above.

Happy Hanukah!

John

http://revivaltheology.net

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/15/2004 7:09 PM (GMT -6)

JEE

quote:
How is judging judgers not judging?

John, I believe those you speak about are on the right track and their hearts are genuine in wanting to love not judge. Yet, I also believe that their approach needs to be tweaked a bit. My attempt in starting this thread was to point out how some of "us" are feeling judged by being labeled for having voted a certain way.

I believe that Greg and others are concerned with all the negative things that have been said by some well meaning Christians which have ended up alienating/wounding segments of society. I believe that to compensate for the wounding they are attempting to undo the damage yet in the process have gone to the other extreme and in this have almost alienated an entirely different segment. Does this make sense? I'm not sure it does to me. Blush

JEE

quote:
In comparing Bush to Hitler, how Greg was NOT judging him and being very unloving towards him is simply beyond my comprehension.

I don't think he is judging Bush as much as he is commenting on what he perceives to be the hype within churches to rally for Bush. I think it's more a concern with equating the churches support for Bush with that which happened in Germany. Again, I wish Greg would have the time to clarify this for all of us.

But again, I know what you mean by feeling labeled a Nazi for how I voted yet truth be told I am not a Nazi but I am a Viking fan. Viking

justvisiting
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 12

Posted 12/15/2004 8:26 PM (GMT -6)

Jee, you are John Earp? I have read your comments before, quite some time ago, though, and had the impression that you were a staunch O.V'er and Boyd supporter. But here I get a different impression. Out of curiousity, have your views changed?

I am truly astounded at what I read at the thread you provided a link to. Boyd never addressed several of the comments made to him after his post, such as the person who corrected his comment that Bush said U.S. is "light of the world."

MephEternal was extremely emphatic about his beliefs anti-Bush and pro-Kerry on the thread, as were several others (Selah), and in all honesty, I see his strong, and even sarcastic comments ("God friggen bless America"), as no different than the Christian "right" being extremely emphatic re: beliefs pro-Bush and anti-Kerry.

I also find it almost humorous, in a tragic sort of way, that Meph questioned whether Dobson and Colson are really doing people good? Unbelieveable, considering that these two leaders alone have helped countless lives with their teachings and ministries (Focus on the Family and Colson's prison ministry and Angel Tree ministries). Their minstries have saved marriages, mended families, provided for families with a loved one in prison, and many, many other ways. It is no less than a slap in their face to say what Meph said about them.

I also find it interesting that Meph is concerned about the word "evangelical" being "polluted" and Christians now being seen as "conservative" and so on. Hasn't the name of Christ and anything associated with it been "polluted" since the beginning of time? Didnt' they literally crucify Christ, laugh at him, spit on him, mock him, beat him, because they thought he was an absolute nut with a following? The name of Christ has been and always will be rejected. This will include it being mocked, misunderstood, and "polluted." Long before this election, Christians were seen in a "bad" light as a bunch of strange, uptight, intolerant nuts. All one has to do is watch the portrayal of Christians on t.v. and movies to see this.

I have the impression that the majority of the people here see Bush in the same light as Hitler (cruel, arrogant, deceitful, delights in killing, etc). Either they wouldn't vote for him if their life depended on it, or they voted for him with great hesitation. This is interesting, and I can't help but be curious about this.

Jee, I am wondering what you think of this. Do you have any thoughts of why it is that Bush is so unpopular at this particular website where there is a great population of O.Ver's of course. Do OV'ers reject the term "evangelical" and/or "fundamental?" You seem to be not one who ambivalently voted for Bush, but rather like myself, emphatically and wholeheartedly voted for Bush.

I must say I am glad I missed the Sword series and have no desire to listen to those or any other of Greg's sermons.

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 12/15/2004 10:07 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by justvisiting

Jee, you are John Earp? I have read your comments before, quite some time ago, though, and had the impression that you were a staunch O.V'er and Boyd supporter. But here I get a different impression. Out of curiousity, have your views changed?

see Jee, I'm not the only one who thinks that you USED to post differently Wink

remember when I told you this?

quote:

MephEternal was extremely emphatic about his beliefs anti-Bush and pro-Kerry on the thread, as were several others (Selah),

note: I never said anything pro-kerry. Also, you're right, I was pretty emphatic over there. I really was surprised to see the pic/quotes about Bush and his supporters. Don't you agree that people (especially those with rosary/crosses hung around their guns) have taken Bush to the extreme?

I'm not sure you noticed the other 3/4 of my post:
(quote taken from other thread)
"At this point, my question continues to be about our practical/Christ-like response. How do we deal with this? I think Doc's message (long ago) about taking care to of your family > neighbor > community > city > state > and then country is helpful, however, it doesn't address how we respond specifically to an incident such as this.

I can only imagine that many (most?) voters had good intentions. There's a possibility that they heard Bush talk about Christ and connected to that - because they know He is our hope. It's possible that many/most voters were out of their heart wanting to reject the moral decay in our nation and turn toward goodness. Can't blame them for that. How do we unite in that regard and reject crazy stuff? Obviously we can't change the vote. What can we do?

I understand it's big. I understand it's ugly. What I don't understand is what to do next. Do we have faith that Bush could change? Should we pray for that? Is our faith aligned with those types of prayers? I'm asking because I don't know. (to be honest meph's articles (long as they were!) were eye opening for me. Doc's comments have been eye opening too because I normally don't spend much time thinking about this stuff...mostly because I'm clueless what to do once I know about it.)
end quote.

I'm still wondering why we don't talk about this stuff instead.

quote:

I have the impression that the majority of the people here see Bush in the same light as Hitler (cruel, arrogant, deceitful, delights in killing, etc). Either they wouldn't vote for him if their life depended on it, or they voted for him with great hesitation. This is interesting, and I can't help but be curious about this.

well, I can't speak for the majority, but since my name was brought up I will say that I don't see Bush in the same light as Hitler... at least not yet. I will add though that he has some scary potential. What's wrong with thinking about that? AND praying about/against that?

quote:

I must say I am glad I missed the Sword series and have no desire to listen to those or any other of Greg's sermons.

It's my opinion that if you would have listened to the sermon series you would have a more balanced view and much more solid ground to know whereof you speak. As with any person who prays that God would use them (to speak through them to others) in a sermon series, Dr. B. had much more to say then what you address here. To toss out all of his sermons is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Again, in my opinion, you are only hurting yourself, your worldview, and your position to comment further on the subject if that's the route you choose.

just a thought,
love
selah

"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."

Scout Cloud Lee

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/16/2004 2:29 AM (GMT -6)

justvisiting

quote:
Either they wouldn't vote for him if their life depended on it, or they voted for him with great hesitation. This is interesting, and I can't help but be curious about this

I will address this as one of the people who voted with hesitation. NEITHER candidate was ALL good nor ALL bad in what they were presenting on their platform.

I watched 911 and it did bring up some red flags for me. The biggest thing it did in me was to let me know that these two men are fallible human beings that are representing their parties. Since I am neither an avid Republican nor Democrat I can't say that I back either platform even close to 100%. I instead had to weigh all this out along with the issues most important to ME and then cast my vote. I will admit it was hesitantly but that is because I am a cynic -- I don't buy everything I see or hear through the media.

Hope this helps your curiosity at least on my end.

Selah

quote:
I think Doc's message (long ago) about taking care to of your family > neighbor > community > city > state > and then country is helpful

I agree with this approach. And I agree we should all be praying for our leaders especially George Bush. United we stand/divided we fall as a family > a neighborhood > a community > a city > a state > and a country. A house divided will crumble. This is why I was so concerned with how some comments have alienated half the body of Christ.

God's blessings!
trosie

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 12/16/2004 4:15 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by justvisiting

Jee, you are John Earp? I have read your comments before, quite some time ago, though, and had the impression that you were a staunch O.V'er and Boyd supporter. But here I get a different impression. Out of curiousity, have your views changed?

Yes, I am John Earp. I still believe in the Open View of the future; In all the time I have been involved with this board, however, I have never, held to Boyd's Bonhoefferian view of "ethics." I happen to know personally of more than a few OVers who would never subscribe to the "love, not judgment" concept of "ethics" typically touted on this board and promoted in Boyd's Repenting of Religion. (A book which, by the way, has so many fundamental and factual errors as to make one blush to think that a mind so sharp as Greg Boyd's would ever admit to having written it).

Just because I believe in the Open View does not mean I subscribe to everything GB teaches.

Blessings,

John

http://revivaltheology.net

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