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Meph, here's the thing, in my view there is nothing wrong (within the context of a disscussion board) venting negative emotions...especially if it means you are being authentic. amen. good. However, the problem (I think) comes when you (and modes and doc - in this case) vent and then disappear. If you are wanting to vent (IN ORDER to move toward authentic anything ) I think it would be good to stick around and actually "move toward" something. To vent on the discussion board and then leave... leaves everyone else wondering about purpose and motive. They end up filling in the blanks because you aren't here to do so. know what I mean?

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Originally posted by MephEternal
I said from the jump that I was going to speak from MY perspective because ultimately that's all I could do anyways. I tried to be nice about this whole thing and say SOMETHING rather than ignore it.

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The main problem I find with any of the post election comments you three made is how it goes completely against the grain of the whole Sword and the Cross series. The hypocrisy of preaching about not getting life from the kingdom of this world before the election and then turn around and display so much passion for a political ideology after the election. Am I alone in this or does anyone else see a problem here?

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My hats off to you, MephEternal. It is admirable of you to stand alone and be held accountable for what you, and to some degree what others, have said. The main problem I find with any of the post election comments you three made is how it goes completely against the grain of the whole Sword and the Cross series. The hypocrisy of preaching about not getting life from the kingdom of this world before the election and then turn around and display so much passion for a political ideology after the election. Am I alone in this or does anyone else see a problem here?

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Originally posted by MephEternal
Thanks for the kudos. To be clear, I didn't think this was an "accountability" thing more than a "clarity" thing. But whatever works is fine with me.

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Had to work late, so I just can't jump in here with much. Trosie speaks well, though, as usual. Mephi, I love you, bro, but I think you're being pretty evasive all of a sudden. If you disagreed with Modes so distinctly, it sure didn't seem like it back when you were Amen-ing his rant.

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The meaning of communication is about the receiver, right

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The hypocrisy of preaching about not getting life from the kingdom of this world before the election and then turn around and display so much passion for a political ideology after the election. Am I alone in this or does anyone else see a problem here?

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I have been following your "Craig/Talbott" thread and find it much more interesting then politics

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I tried to be nice about this whole thing and say SOMETHING rather than ignore it.

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So I hear Meph, Modes and Doc saying two distinct things:

1. They have political opinions which cause them to be disappointed with the result of the election. This, in itself, is not inconsistent with the Sword/Cross thing, right?.

2. They perceive that a significant segment of the Christian right is in fact becoming identified largely by its support of a particular political party or politician (which competes with what the Church should be identified with). This is (at least logically) separate from their personal views regarding the results of the election.

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What bothers me is not that they were disappointed by the election. I have plenty of Christian friends who were (and frankly, although I did ultimately vote for Bush, I was far less than pleased with my choices this time around). What bothers me is the divisive nature of their comments. THAT is what I found to be inconsistent with the Cross/Sword series. If politics should never get in the way of the Kingdom, then going on sarcastic and unnecessarily personal rants about one party or the other should be avoided because it unnecessarily alienates those of another political persuasion. As we discussed long ago on this board about how to determine whether our actions are loving (i.e., Kingdom-building), we need to be primarily concerned not with our own intentions, but rather to the way in which our actions affect others.

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I strongly suspect that if Kerry had won the election, and Bush-backers had come on in the days afterward and posted anything resembling the tone of the comments we are discussing, there would have been a reflexive application of the Cross/Sword principles to criticize such behavior.

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I appreciate you not ignoring me. Thank you for giving me your insights and reflections from YOUR perspective.

Just curious, Mephi, how do you feel about where this has gone? I am too worn out to continue on. I don't know why -- but I am fine with ending this discussion unless someone else wants to continue.

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BJS:

If politics should never get in the way of the Kingdom, then going on sarcastic and unnecessarily personal rants about one party or the other should be avoided because it unnecessarily alienates those of another political persuasion. As we discussed long ago on this board about how to determine whether our actions are loving (i.e., Kingdom-building), we need to be primarily concerned not with our own intentions, but rather to the way in which our actions affect others.

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I tell you what, Brett. I'd LOVE to see you on a reconciliation committee sometime! Perhaps an experiential learning exercise. Seriously!

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I hear what you are saying...about ultimately trying to promote the Kingdom at all times. I'd agree with that. However, I'd agree much more with Selah's point than yours. As long as the "heat" is DIRECTED towards giving more "light" ultimately, then things are ok.

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America's most famous shock jock, who moves to Sirius Satellite Radio in 13 months, has been reading the Bible. With all this talk about how the country is into religion and morality, Stern, 50, figures it was time to read The Good Book.

Of course, he hasn't gotten past Genesis, and he has problems with the part about God creating night and day. Too obvious. But he doesn't want to be too critical. "I'm always afraid to say anything about God. What if there is a God?"

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I never said anything pro-kerry.

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I'm completely convinced Bush is off his rocker. And, I might add, I'm glad I didn't vote! Radical right thinking (and the absolutely unbelievable picture of the guys with their balloon crosses) - completely nuts! I want no part of that. Bush can crusade all he wants, but I won't support it AND I will pray against it.

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to be honest meph's articles (long as they were!) were eye opening for me. Doc's comments have been eye opening too because I normally don't spend much time thinking about this stuff...mostly because I'm clueless what to do once I know about it.)

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There's a possibility that they heard Bush talk about Christ and connected to that

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How do we unite in that regard and reject crazy stuff?

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It's my opinion that if you would have listened to the sermon series you would have a more balanced view and much more solid ground to know whereof you speak.

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Again, in my opinion, you are only hurting yourself, your worldview, and your position to comment further on the subject if that's the route you choose.

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There may be a benefit up to a point (in terms of authenticity as a pre-requisite to reconciliation), but at what point is the line crossed where a political discussion (or any type of discussion) is more harmful (in terms of Kingdom-building) than beneficial? I guess the answer depends on the context, content, all of the circumstances, but I definitely see your point.

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BJS:

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Hmmm. I'm not sure how Selah's point conflicts with anything I have said. I will say this, though. That last sentence is a rationale that has justified a lot of repulsive, unloving behavior. Everyone who strongly believes something thinks it is the "light." If we all justified "heated" behavior by claiming it is "ultimately" about providing "light," this world would be uninhabitable. Frankly, it is that kind of moralistic hubris that you and I cringe at when we see it from the so-called "Christian right." In my opinion, it is no less harmful when it comes from the left. Or the middle. Or whereever.

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Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I thought that I said that I AGREED with the essence of what I felt you saying...that the Kingdom should be promoted at all times. That should be what we are striving for. Doing all things in love and all that. What I agreed with Selah MORE about (at least as I understood her) was that if one is going to vent negative emotion like that, one should be willing to SET UP and or MAINTAIN the context in which it can take place healthily. I didn't do that. She believed that venting authentically felt negative emotion IN AND OF ITSELF is not bad. But it helps to have a context. That's why I liked what JET said.

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Disagreements, political or otherwise, are inevitable and often healthy. No doubt. But the Cross/Sword principle, as I understand it, is that the politics of the world should rank far below the advancement of the Kingdom. And advancing the Kingdom means manifesting God's love by building loving relationships (or, as Trosie put it and WHC puts it "building bridges"). I've let politics interfere way too much in my relationships with others. Way too much. I've been sanctimonious and condescending. I've been bitter and angry at those who disagree with me. I've distanced myself from those who made me feel defensive. All of these things obviously interfere with loving relationship. The Cross/Sword series absolutely turned a switch on inside my head and convicted me about the ill-placed priority that I often gave politics. I think the series did that for a lot of us. So when we felt the so-called "heat" of some of the emotional venting that took place on these boards after Bush won, it just didn't seem consistent with the Cross/Sword principle. If we aren't to let politics divide us, then why such an attacking, divisive approach? As I understood it, that's what Trosie was asking. And I thought it was a fair question.

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First of all, it's cool that the Cross and the Sword series affected you like that. No lie. Just wanted to say that.

Second, I'm hoping that you understand that I'm NOT disagreeing with you as much as you may think that I am.



Ok. Now I'm done...

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How do we unite in that regard and reject crazy stuff?

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I don't think it's possible. There will never be true unity in this world. There will always be a huge separation between those who call Christ God and those who don't.

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We certainally can "get along" ...

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It's my opinion that if you would have listened to the sermon series you would have a more balanced view and much more solid ground to know whereof you speak.

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I would have Greg Boyd's view, not necessarily a "balanced" view. I can't say it's balanced or not, but it ceraintly sounds like its not. It sounds like its definitely "left" leaning, not BALANCED.

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Again, in my opinion, you are only hurting yourself, your worldview, and your position to comment further on the subject if that's the route you choose.

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Well, my worldview certainly isn't/won't be the same as Greg Boyd's.

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...Considering that you think he is "off his rocker." (Just imagine if I said that about Boyd).

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Originally posted by BJS

... But when expressing authentic feelings, one should be willing to accept authentic feedback and acknowledge when those expressions were not in sync with the Kingdom.

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I don't think Trosie or me is trying to stifle authentic expression (not that you are saying we were!). I do think we wanted to discuss our authentic concerns about some of the things that have been said.

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Originally posted by trosie

Sparknheart

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I have been following your "Craig/Talbott" thread and find it much more interesting then politics

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Just curious, why are you reading and posting on this thread then?

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Selah, I definitely agree with you that authentic feelings need to be expressed. That's why I'm not angry with Meph, or Doc, or Modes. I know it was emotional venting in many ways. That's cool. I do it all the time with those who I trust as friends. But when expressing authentic feelings, one should be willing to accept authentic feedback and acknowledge when those expressions were not in sync with the Kingdom. I don't think Trosie or me is trying to stifle authentic expression (not that you are saying we were!). I do think we wanted to discuss our authentic concerns about some of the things that have been said.

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I agree. I think Mephi also said something similar. The process of working through "meaning matching" has helped bring us to better understanding even in this case. cool. perfect example.

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I think Brett captured my concern when he said:
“THAT is what I found to be inconsistent with the Cross/Sword series. If politics should never get in the way of the Kingdom, then going on sarcastic and unnecessarily personal rants about one party or the other should be avoided because it unnecessarily alienates those of another political persuasion.”
Over all, there are many other positive things to focus on instead of politics. I would rather practice what Dr. Boyd preaches and stay focused on the “Kingdom of God”.

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