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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/12/2004 11:52 PM (GMT -6) |   | **I want to start this off by admitting that I am not great at expressing myself in writing so I will apologize right off the bat if I come off in any way that is not loving.**
One of the missions of Woodland Hills Church to be a bridge. Since you are all three in leadership, and are passionate about tearing down walls and building bidges, I want to address this to you:
I have been reading and listening to some of what each of you have been promoting and the concerns you have expressed about President Bush. Through what you have shared I am wondering how much you are building a bridge that unites when you are alienating half of the population of the United States. Afterall, this past election was split down the middle. If your mission and passion, as leadership of Woodland Hills Church, is to be bridge builders then it seems appropriate not to be biased (neither liberal nor conservative) I think in all fairness a bridge needs to support it's weight evenly or it will slant.
You seem to be passionate against the killing caused from the present war; are you as passionate against the killing of the unborn? You are passionate about reaching out to the inner city; are you as passionate about reaching out to the suburbanites? All people in every camp need to be valued, loved, and respected. All people are valuable -- both the victims of war and the victims of abortion are valuable. All people are deserving of love -- those who live in the inner city, those who live in the suburbs, and those who live in the rural areas are all in need of love and need to be reached. All people need to be respected -- liberals, conservatives, and all of us who fall in between need to be given freedom to think and choose without judgment.
Perhaps I am way off base but I get this feeling that the bridge you are building is slanting a bit one way -- perhaps to the left. I think is is BEAUTIFUL that Woodland Hills and the leadership have the vision of building a bridge for reconciliation -- I just hope and pray that the bridge will not lean but be balanced. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/13/2004 9:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by trosie
I think is is BEAUTIFUL that Woodland Hills and the leadership have the vision of building a bridge for reconciliation -- I just hope and pray that the bridge will not lean but be balanced.
Amen!
I attended an excellent seminar last night by Dr. Os Guinness on his version of the “Sword and the Cross”.  I would highly recommend getting whatever resources are available to study his teachings on the subject. I have never read anything by him before but was very impressed by his presentation of where Western Christianity is heading and how we can steer through the chaos of vice and virtue that we find in this age of moral confusion.
Shalom,
Mark
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/13/2004 10:10 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/14/2004 5:34 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
I attended an excellent seminar last night by Os Guinness on his version of the “Sword and the Cross”. I would highly recommend getting whatever resources are available to study his teachings on the subject. I have never read anything by him before but was very impressed by his presentation of where Western Christianity
is heading and how we can steer through the chaos of vice and virtue that we find in this age of moral confusion.
Shalom,
Mark
I heard that it was good as well from people who attended.
You heard right.
I would love to hear Dr. Boyd's response to the views Dr. Guiness holds.
Check out the following link:
www.leaderu.com/marshill/mhr08/os1.html | | Back to Top | | |
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Diogenes Perhaps
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 10
| Posted 11/15/2004 1:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
I attended an excellent seminar last night by Os Guinness on his version of the “Sword and the Cross”. I would highly recommend getting whatever resources are available to study his teachings on the subject. I have never read anything by him before but was very impressed by his presentation of where Western Christianity
is heading and how we can steer through the chaos of vice and virtue that we find in this age of moral confusion.
Shalom,
Mark
I heard that it was good as well from people who attended.
You heard right.
I would love to hear Dr. Boyd's response to the views Dr. Guiness holds.
Check out the following link:
www.leaderu.com/marshill/mhr08/os1.html
Didn't Os Guiness write "Dust of Death"?
or invent a beer?
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/15/2004 5:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks to those who have responded. I am HOPING that Greg Boyd, Mephi, and/or Modes will join in to offer their response. I appreciate the opportunity of learning and growing in Christ.
The one thing I think we all will agree with is that the reasons we are drawn to Greg's books, WHC, and/or this web site are due to the challenges Greg poses to our "traditional" Christian beliefs. I appreciate each person who contributes on this board, even if I don't agree with them. It is through diversity that beliefs are challenged and renewed.
My main concern, and the reason I started this thread, is that when we begin to become too slanted, we miss the opportunity of reaching beyond ourselves. In our slanting we begin to alienate people. If Woodland Hills Church wants to be a bridge that unites, it must begin at the top. If the leadership becomes caught up in attacking a people group (in this case Bush and the people who voted that way) -- they are being pulled into the pattern of this world. Jesus came to draw ALL people unto himself including Republicans and President Bush.
If we don't agree with President Bush, or any person in leadership, we have the liberty to write letters. If we want to spread peace and love to the people in Iraq then we can begin by doing so ourselves. "Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with ME" | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/21/2004 1:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for your affirmation, Brett and Tiggers.
I wonder (and HOPE) if Greg, Mephi, and Modes will toss in their feedback. Their response to my concern would be helpful and most appreciated by people who attend Woodland Hills such as myself.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 11/23/2004 3:20 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote
I wonder (and HOPE) if Greg, Mephi, and Modes will toss in their feedback. Their response to my concern would be helpful and most appreciated by people who attend Woodland Hills such as myself.
I doubt it.
I agree with the points that you made. I went to the church for about 1 1/2 years. We left because we live in Wisconsin, and decided to find something closer. Anyway, I was there for the cross and the sword series. I was really stretched by what Pastor Boyd shared. In fact, I don't know whether to slap Greg or hug him. I will never be able to listen to talk radio the same. I usually listen to am1280 The Patriot and it is pretty much all kingdom of the world stuff.
Anyway, there should have only been 1 sermon on the cross and the sword. The first sermon was the only one that opened my eyes. The other sermons only confused me. I think the reason was that for the first sermon Pastor Boyd was speaking, but for the others I think that Dr, Author and Professor Greg Boyd was speaking. The other sermons came from a very subjective point of view. I think I can prove it. Never once did Greg mention anything about the civil rights movement, which the government passed laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of skin color. So, did that get accomplished by the Kingdom of God or by the Kingdom of the World? So then Greg must agree that, according to his sermons, those people were wasting their time by holding signs and marches. Because he said that the people down at the Capital holding signs for the marriage ammendment rally were wasting their time because nobody is going to change someones heart by holding a sign, that to rely on the government to pass laws to change a behavior or in this case to prevent a behavior, is a waste of time. Nothing about the civil rights movement.
Also with the Christian people who vote pro-gay and pro-abortion, that it is no big deal because that is a Kindom of the World type situation because we are choosing how to wield the sword in the Kingdom of the World. He said, "religious people are so funny". I was actually pretty offended by that. For one thing, any teaching that abortion and homosexuality is a good and viable option for someone is seriously wrong. He said that we religious people are just going after the sins that we define, and not any others. What about divorce and remarriage, gluttony, greed...why don't we go after those he said. My answer to that is very simple. NOBODY IS TEACHING THAT THOSE THINGS ARE GOOD!!!!! Greg is totally missing the point. I didn't go down to the Capital to change anybodys behavior!! I went down there because the teaching that 2 men, women getting married is good, is totally wrong!!!
If a Christian can vote pro-abortion and still be a Christian as his sermons asserted, can I still be a Christian and vote against the freeing of the slaves(if in fact I were alive at the time)? It is that kind of stuff that confused me.
So these are more example of how maybe the bridge might be leaning...to the left.
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/23/2004 4:43 PM (GMT -6) | | jefscottquote:
I think Doc thinks government is used by God providentially only. That is, government, per Doc, has no divinely delegated authority. And if I'm correct, that kind of explains where Doc is coming from.
If that be the case then how do you address what Jim-Mottl said: "Never once did Greg mention anything about the civil rights movement, which the government passed laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of skin color. So, did that get accomplished by the Kingdom of God or by the Kingdom of the World? So then Greg must agree that, according to his sermons, those people were wasting their time by holding signs and marches."
Don't you think those who cared passionately won out in the end by getting laws changed? Perhaps there is still a battle in this area but those involved and who cared enough to carry signs... have made great strides in equality.
Jim-Mottlquote:
quote:
I wonder (and HOPE) if Greg, Mephi, and Modes will toss in their feedback. Their response to my concern would be helpful and most appreciated by people who attend Woodland Hills such as myself.
I doubt it.
I am hoping that they will still respond for the benefit of us all. I sincerely hope that I have not offended... | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/24/2004 5:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks, Selah. I wrote: "Perhaps there is still a battle in this area but those involved and who cared enough to carry signs... have made great strides in equality." My .... means that there was much more involved to bringing equality in the laws about -- the woman sitting on the bus that you suggested is one such example. Thank you!
Selahquote:
my guess is that they are all down in Texas having a good time with the other liberals give it a little time Trosie, I'm sure someone will respond
Yes, I was responding to Jim-Mottl's "I doubt it" response to me. I didn't know they were still in Texas. Wasn't the conference last week? I LOVE San Antonia!!!! I don't blame them for spending time there. It's a beautiful city to visit.
Love,
trosie
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/24/2004 5:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Alrighty. Let’s start with some things…
1)To all the people who have been looking for responses (ie. Selah, Ross, etc), sorry that I haven’t gotten back to you in a more timely fashion. I have been CRAZY busy with professional and personal business. No lie. This has had to take a back seat. I got a coupla emails saying that I should get to this thread and so…here I am. I'm carving out some time to do this.
2)In all of my responses, I am going to speak for ME. Though I think that I can anticipate some things that Doc or Modes may think and I may incorporate some ideas from time to time, but make no mistake, my response will be MY response.
3)Please read carefully what I am writing. I will ask you not to read into my words things that are not there (at least as much as possible). And I will strive for that as well.
Now…
Let me resummarize what I believe that I am hearing from trosie, in terms of concerns, audience, etc…
1)Trosie is addressing people who are considered to be “in leadership” at Woodland Hills Church, namely Doc, Modes and Meph.
2)Trosie has seen the concerns that we (Doc, Modes and Meph) have individually expressed about President George W. Bush…and feels that those expressions promote a more divisive than unifying element, given the context of the heated election.
3)Trosie feels that, given the mission and passion of WHC leadership to “be bridge buiders,” it is appropriate that anyone in leadership should not “be biased.” What I am currently taking this to mean is that those in WHC leadership 1) should not express ideas that either lean to far to the “liberal” perspective or the “conservative” perspective…even on an internet discussion board. And 2) At the very least, they should always promote balanced perspectives that show that we understand both sides.
4)Trosie wonders if we care about ALL people on ALL sides of the debates (War/abortion; urban/suburban; etc) This care, in her view, is demonstrated by respecting all people through “given them the freedom to think and choose without judgment” I am currently taking this last phrase to mean that all people should be able to make choices according to their own consciences and convictions without feeling “judged” for doing so.
5)Trosie believes that a bridge of reconciliation should be balanced. I am currently taking this to mean that the “bridge” should take fairly and honestly into account all of the struggles, needs, concerns, perspectives and convictions of all parties concerned.
6)Trosie believes that Doc’s, Mode’s, and my expressed perspective leans too much to the left.
I am not trying to belabor things. I just want to make sure that I am getting things as accurately as I can. Trosie?
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/24/2004 5:29 AM (GMT -6) | | I also want to respond to this, as I get time…
Jim:
Never once did Greg mention anything about the civil rights movement, which the government passed laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of skin color. So, did that get accomplished by the Kingdom of God or by the Kingdom of the World? So then Greg must agree that, according to his sermons, those people were wasting their time by holding signs and marches. Because he said that the people down at the Capital holding signs for the marriage ammendment rally were wasting their time because nobody is going to change someones heart by holding a sign, that to rely on the government to pass laws to change a behavior or in this case to prevent a behavior, is a waste of time. Nothing about the civil rights movement.
Oh, yes. We definitely must talk about that.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/24/2004 9:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Thought. Since Trosie may speak for others of you, anyone who cares please take time to give your input on my restatements. Are they fairly accurate as far as YOUR particular interpretations of Trosie's writings? This way I can hit as many people as possible with my responses. Thanks.
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 11/24/2004 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Thought. Since Trosie may speak for others of you, anyone who cares please take time to give your input on my restatements. Are they fairly accurate as far as YOUR particular interpretations of Trosie's writings? This way I can hit as many people as possible with my responses. Thanks.
I read through both a couple of times, and I would say that your restatements are accurate.
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/24/2004 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Please proceed, Mephi. I believe you've summed up my concerns accurately enough to hear your stand/response.... Please know my intention is NOT to put us against them, me against you, but to express how I personally have felt "labeled" and demeaned by some of the statements made. If I feel this way, and the mission is to bridge gaps, then let's proceed peacefully.
Your serve, Mephi..... | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/24/2004 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok. Good.
I'm leaving town today...so I may not be back on for a coupla days. But I've gotten a hold of all of the correspondence we've had on this issue...and I'm going to take out some time and work on this. Maybe I can craft some responses to Selah and others. We'll see.
For all those who celebrate it, have a happy thanksgiving holiday. For those who don't, just have a really nice weekend.
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/24/2004 3:52 PM (GMT -6) | | MephEternalquote:
I'm leaving town today...so I may not be back on for a coupla days. But I've gotten a hold of all of the correspondence we've had on this issue...and I'm going to take out some time and work on this. Maybe I can craft some responses to Selah and others. We'll see.
Thank you so much for getting on this -- it means a lot. Since you are buddies with the other two (Doc and Modes) do you think you might be able to influence them to chime in here too for the benefit of myself and others who have concerns? My prayers are with you for a safe trip. Enjoy your time
Have a Happy Thanksgiving all!
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Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85
| Posted 11/25/2004 3:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Now…
Let me resummarize what I believe that I am hearing from trosie, in terms of concerns, audience, etc…
3)Trosie feels that, given the mission and passion of WHC leadership to “be bridge buiders,” it is appropriate that anyone in leadership should not “be biased.” What I am currently taking this to mean is that those in WHC leadership 1) should not express ideas that either lean to far to the “liberal” perspective or the “conservative” perspective…even on an internet discussion board.
I'm going to take issue with just one item, the part I made bold above.
Maybe leader(s) should express balance when speaking from the pulpit, but on an internet discussion board???
CVM is NOT the official website of WHC and I don't expect ANYONE to express anything other than what they think on an internet discussion board.
Do you want to discuss real thoughts or listen to canned scripts?
I consider there's a Chinese wall* between WHC and CVM and don't think anything about WHC should be discussed through CVM. Shall we discuss your places of employment through this website as well?
And I don't expect any leader(s) from WHC to be anything other than individuals free to say what they want on CVM.
I always thought CVM was about bashing ideas around, not about 'pastoral care'.
*you got Google, look it up
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 11/25/2004 7:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Trosie,
quote:
jefscott
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Doc thinks government is used by God providentially only. That is, government, per Doc, has no divinely delegated authority. And if I'm correct, that kind of explains where Doc is coming from.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If that be the case then how do you address what Jim-Mottl said: "Never once did Greg mention anything about the civil rights movement, which the government passed laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of skin color. So, did that get accomplished by the Kingdom of God or by the Kingdom of the World? So then Greg must agree that, according to his sermons, those people were wasting their time by holding signs and marches."
Don't you think those who cared passionately won out in the end by getting laws changed? Perhaps there is still a battle in this area but those involved and who cared enough to carry signs... have made great strides in equality.
To clarify, let me say that I disagree with Doc's view of government as I understand it. But it doesn't follow from that view that nothing good comes of government. But I suspect that Doc believes even better things would come if Christians pursued his model of "activism".
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 11/25/2004 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Thought. Since Trosie may speak for others of you, anyone who cares please take time to give your input on my restatements. Are they fairly accurate as far as YOUR particular interpretations of Trosie's writings? This way I can hit as many people as possible with my responses. Thanks.
Hi Meph,
I think your interpretations are accurate. Also, please don't worry about getting back to me if you're on a tight schedule. I'd love to hear your thoughts, but really I was half kidding when I came back to pick on you for not responding. These things just aren't that vital (or even very important) to me.
NOW, about the e-mail I sent years ago -- that was regarding P.O.E. (vital) stuff. For not responding to that one - you're dead.
Oh, and For the record, I think Trosie's questions are interesting, but I'm not one of those who agrees enough to say she's speaking for me - by any means.
Exceeding Blessings 2 u,
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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