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Tiggers
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219

Posted 9/9/2003 5:21 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by ModesofThought

Thanks for helping me out while I have been unable to respond TGB. I owe Brandon a response on another thread, and then I will try to come back here if I am able. Today doesn't look good though, maybe tomorrow. Tiggers, I hope you don't think I am ignoring you, its just that a friend's emergency situation has made it impossible for me play much for a little while here.

blessings...

Hey Modes,
Take your time, my man, truly! Your friend definitely comes first, heck loving someone (especially ones in need) always comes first. I’ll tell ya what, Modes, I’ll lift you and your friend up in prayer right now, for whatever the circumstances may be, God can and does work miracles Nurse

. May the grace of God be with you both!

Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers

“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie).

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 9/10/2003 6:37 AM (GMT -6)

I’m crazy busy. But I think I have something here.

I can see WHY people want to hold on to the free-will argument so much.

I’ve been thinking. I can see why people are really trying to keep this free-will argument.

1) Doc’s WHOLE BASIS for his understanding of “natural” evil is BUILT upon it. Why? Because Doc says, and I would agree, that the free-will argument is necessary to demonstrate why God would allow Satan and demonic forces such CARTE BLANCHE reign with respect to Creation…hence bringing forth “natural evil” All of the other explanations won’t do it alone. Nature red in tooth and claw, remember? So, to take away the free-will argument is to shoot Doc’s idea about “natural” evil out the window. Check “Satan and the Problem of Evil’!

2) Iconoclast’s view of personhood is built upon the ABSOLUTE PRIMACY of the will, not a confluent action of will and nature. To kill the free-will argument is to negate what he thinks is central about what it means to be a person.

3) Even more than these, we would NOW have no explanation OUTSIDE OF GOD’S WILL and PURPOSE to say WHY God allowed free will. Gasp! How shocking. How torturous. How insane a concept!

So, this whole “free-will argument/love requires freedom” thing means a whole lot. Yup.

Oh, well. Let’s kill it quickly. No need to let it linger. Heh.

Wink

“Free-will argument? We don’t need no stinkin’ free will argument!”
--Me

"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."

--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God

Modes of Thought
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817

Posted 9/11/2003 6:02 AM (GMT -6)

Meph, is the problem (in your mind):
1. THAT a person holds to a free-will defense/concept?
2. HOW a person holds to the free-will defense/concept or any other philosophical crutch for faith?
Or,
3. The massively overblown (in your mind) ROLE that the free-will defense/concept plays in the systems we hold?

Secondly, would it make a different to you which way it is stated above in terms of whether this is a "concept" or a "defense"?

BTW: I do still plan to get back to the other posts, but I could respond quickly to this one...

"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc

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