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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/13/2004 10:03 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey Spen and Paul,
I always wonder when a debater compliments the other. So this issue of Truth and what is the Word of God and what is central to the Gospel is sticking here. I think I've asked this before, maybe not here, but certainly with others...how will God lead me if I have only the written word to be absolutely sure of. I just read an essay by Tozer where he said some Christians have the word or the bible and do not have the spirit. Gotta have both, he says. And it is risky, cause I know I have thought I heard God before when it was my own voice or satan talking. We do need still, to hear God. We will not get His Message by looking only at the written word and we'll not get it either if we ignore the written word. Both are extremes and extremely wrong. I believe it was Oswald Chambers who said the written word's chief use for the believer is to correct us when we move into error, rather than to be the main light as we walk in the Spirit. I know this may set you off, Spen and I'm not saying I totally agree or suppose I totally understand Chamber's idea. I just see my walk with Christ as something organic, from the heart, a constant, and far more than going by a guidebook or instruction manual. I think he walks with me and he talks with me and he tells me I am His own...and the joy we share as we tarry there..." I guess Spen and Paul, I'd LOVE to hear how God has spoken to you and guided you in hard times. I just know He Does this.
Barry
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/13/2004 10:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Barry: I believe it was Oswald Chambers who said the written word's chief use for the believer is to correct us when we move into error, rather than to be the main light as we walk in the Spirit.
Spen: I agree with Oswald's approach as long as we understand that "error" consists both of:
- sins of commission, where we act/believe what is contrary to what is written.
- sins of ommission, where we fail to act/believe as commanded in the written word.
All that is not covered by these two categories is an area of liberty. We are free to choose without fear of sinning. You may choose to marry or not. You may choose to marry a certain individual or not with complete liberty. If you choose a person and get married I can promise you and state with all the authority of God, "God Himself has joined you tegether." In all that is liberty we make our best decisions with all of the objective factual information that we have combined with all the subjective feelings and impressions we may feel. We believe that God is leading us in our choices and go forward in faith. No "prophet" has the right to intrude on or limit this liberty because of his "revelation." He has no authority to call any action/inaction of another sin because simply because he claims that God revealed it to him.
This is the basis of the control and authority exercised by the modern prophets, taking the conscience of their followers captive to obey their revelations and words instead of the liberty and freedom that God has given them. Whereas the scriptures say, "Those who forsake the law praise the wicked but those who keep the law strive with them." These men say of the sheep's action regarding erring leaders, "They will not have it all correct, but it is still not our place to criticise." The scriptures support the concept that actually it is the sheep who judge their shepherds. "The sheep hear his voice.. sheep follow him because they know his voice...a stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers." It is required of the sheep to certainly hear the voice of God. We discern this not by believing the men claiming to be the prophetic voice of God (whose predictions often fail to come true, 35% of the time according to Bob Jones) but because of the written words that He has given and are truth and never wrong.
These men and the modern prophetic movement is an attack on the liberty of free will and an attempt to bring sheep under their "guidance."
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/13/2004 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
Didn't God command Hosea concerning marriage in a way that was not specifically required by the torah? I'm no expert on the book of Hosea, so please correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm right, I'm not saying it contradicts your view - I would just like for you to address your view, then, in light of Hosea's situation.
Spen: I believe you are refering to the verse "the LORD said to Hosea, 'Go, take to yourself a wife of harlotry and have children of harlotry.'" God told Hosea, who was a real prophet to take a harlot as a wife. Marrying a harlot is never called a sin in the law. When Israel entered Canaan, Rahab the harlot was accepted into the children of Israel in marriage and even became the part of the lineage of David and thus Christ. If you mean to ask do I think that God certainly spoke to Hosea in ways that He doesn't to us now, I would answer, "yes." The word of the Lord came to the prophets. God chose them and it wasn't dependent on the people to choose to become a prophet. There was even a 400 year period where there were no "modern" prophets just the writings of the past ones. Why? I don't know. We have already heard and have the words of the great prophet Moses spoke of in Deut 18. Hebrews tells us that while God spoke to the the fathers in many passages and in many ways in the last days He has spoken to us in His Son. This Word became flesh has now ascended to the right hand of God in heaven and we have His certain words with us now in the writings of the men who heard Him while He was on earth and whom He chose in front of witnesses.
I do believe that God can speak to individuals today, and even give predictions to real prophets is recorded twice with Agabus in Acts. Both these predictions came true. The big difference between Agabus and the Old Testament prophets and those that claim to be modern prophets is that Agabus, in his predictions, never gave extra-biblical "direction" as the voice of God. Agabus never usurped the freedom of the church in his prophecies. Look in Acts 11 regarding the famine concerning their actions, "in the proportion that any of the disciples had means, each of them determined to send a contribution for the relief of the brethren living in Judea." The same LIBERTY and freedom of decision is given to Paul regarding going to Jerusalem. Agabus never demanded extra-biblical actions or inaction from his hearers. He simply predicted and the word was confirmed and his ministry was confirmed because it happened, just as we see in Deut 18.
I think that there is a place for subjective "leading" in which we pray for guidance and believe that God is speaking to us to the point that we step out in faith and walk forward in faith concerning an impression or feeling. I do not say that I think this is sinful. If however the action doesn't bring about the desired result, it isn't because:
- God failed
- OR the feeling failed.
Perhaps God gave us feelings to accomplish something in us that could only be learned in our suffering or failing. Whatever the result of such decisions (apart from sin) we must simply trust that God is and has been leading as we move forward in faith. Becoming rich is not an indication of "great discernment" and suffering and becoming poor is not a mark of "poor discernment." They just are. They just are what God has given and we learn as Paul to be content in abounding or lack. Thus I don't believe an extra-biblical "result" can certainly prove that a revelation was certainly from God concerning direction.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/14/2004 8:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Spen,
quote:
If you mean to ask do I think that God certainly spoke to Hosea in ways that He doesn't to us now, I would answer, "yes."
I guess I'm asking for some solid biblical evidence of that. For without it, a modern man claiming to be a prophet can say "God told me that you should marry so-and-so.." and we have no way of arguing against that biblically. And it is the bible by which we test the spirits, eh?
In the Hosea example, God spoke to Hosea. Hosea didn't speak on God's behalf to someone else. If someone felt that God was speaking to them to marry someone, they have liberty to do so within the limits set by scripture. If a modern prophet commanded me, "God told me that you should marry so-and-so.." I believe that we do have a way of arguing against it biblically. We are told:
1 John 2
These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
1 John 4
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
This command is beyond their jurisdiction. They are manifesting themselves as false by even making it. Commanding me to marry is not confessing Jesus' work in the flesh nor is it confessing Jesus. It is confessing themsleves and their authority over areas of liberty. I find no support for claiming directive prophecy for others is certainly from God in matters of Christian liberty in the New Testament. Perhaps this is an oversight on my part that you can help explain. I believe that 1 John 4 is clear that the test for false prophets (testing the spirits) is whether they confess Jesus' ministry in the flesh. The confession of those claiming to be prophets is exactly what we are commanded to judge them by.
The claim of a modern "prophet" telling me that God's will is the I marry a specific person leaves me two options if they truly speak for God - obey or sin. We are told to judge and discern prophesy and teachings given by brothers in the church as whether it is supported by the written Word of God. This is how we judge the shepherds.
When someone claims to be a prophet the passage in 1 John 4 gives us the test to apply. Based upon this, the prophect that acts according to your example "is not from God."
Spen Lake
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/14/2004 2:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen,
Let's cut to it.
Do you believe that God speaks (prophetically) today?
Do you believe that he "gave ...some to be prophets....until we all reach unity in the faith..." (Eph 4:11-ff)?
Bob Jones is on record over many years for decrying those who run after Prophets. he maintains we all need to learn to hear God for ourselves. The job of the Prophet in this instance is to confirm the Word we are hearing from God. John Paul Jackson has also taught on incorrect use of Prophecy and the dangers of control.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/14/2004 3:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
Spen,
Let's cut to it.
Do you believe that God speaks (prophetically) today?
Do you believe that he "gave ...some to be prophets....until we all reach unity in the faith..." (Eph 4:11-ff)?
Bob Jones is on record over many years for decrying those who run after Prophets. he maintains we all need to learn to hear God for ourselves. The job of the Prophet in this instance is to confirm the Word we are hearing from God. John Paul Jackson has also taught on incorrect use of Prophecy and the dangers of control.
Paul D
Paul,
I am not saying and have never said that any of these men, or even Satan himself, can say nothing true or good. How would a "false" be considered a sheep if they didn't put on sheep's clothing? Bob Jones may decry those who run after prophets in one breath and collect $40 from the ones that attend his conference this year while he contemplates the fees for the needed conference next year that will finally allow the gospel to work its power over sin. That men make mistakes is fine. That these men claim to be prophets and the "prophetic voice of God" with a special anointing is something different. A man speaking as a man has the authority of a man. A man truly speaking for God has the authority of God and to disobey these words leads to damnation.
John Paul Jackson's teaching on dreams devastated the Vineyard church in Aurora, CO. His ministry, "Streams" is centered on dreams and he has a training course where you can become a certified dream interpreter. There is also a dream interpretation "subscription service" that you can sign-up for and register you dreams for interpretation at three different service levels - silver, gold or platinum. There is a growing market for certified dream interpreters based upon this site.
http://www.interpretmydream.com/index.php
He recently spoke in Minneapolis (Luthernan Conference on the Holy Spirit, 2004) on dreams and his ministry to restore this lost and important method of guidance and truth to the body of Christ.
Excerpts from FAQS
· Would it be possible, that if I have extra dream credit, to pay for someone else on the site to have a month of subscription using my dream credit?
Not at the present. In future we may allow you to transfer dream credit to another person.
· I do not have an active account but I would like to see my old dreams; and the system will not allow me to submit new dreams or access my dream journal.
We ask users to contribute to the maintenance of the site according to their use of the site’s resources. Dreams that have been interpreted are emailed to the dreamer. We do have an access only supporting subscription that is about half the cost of the economy supporting subscription.
· How do I apply for platinum, gold or silver membership ?
You need to goto the 'Subscription Manager'. From here you can purchase basic, silver, gold or platinum subscriptions. Make sure you cancel one subscription type if you are switching to another. You will get the unused portion of the cancelled subscription type added to the new number of interpretations you will be getting. If you do not cancel the current subscription when adding a new type you will be getting billed for both and interpretations from both.
· If I suspend my subscription, due to being out of town for a time, will I lose my dream credit?
The way to suspend your membership is to cancel your subscription from the 'Subscription Manager'. Your account will be active to the end of that month's subscription and then it will not be renewed until you log back into the 'Subscription Manager' and purchase another subscription. You will not lose any dream credit it will still be there when you renew your subscription.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/14/2004 4:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Guidance - How does God certainly lead?
Simplistically! | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/15/2004 11:19 AM (GMT -6) | | If you want a Biblical basis for God leading we're talking dreams, visions, angels, etc, which leaves the modern cessationists in a bit of a bind..
Paul D
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/15/2004 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
If you want a Biblical basis for God leading we're talking dreams, visions, angels, etc, which leaves the modern cessationists in a bit of a bind..
Paul D
I am not a cessationist and I do not deny that God gives people dreams, visions, angels and even puts them into trances. I don't feel in a bind because all of this subjective "input" is subject to scrutiny, to be evaluated, and not "certainly" God's expressed guidance. If I find the concept of my dream explicitly in scriptures, I can know God's leading with certainty there. Unless I do this, I may not be feeling/understanding the subjective properly. I can say that a prophecy given in a church was instrumental in my marrying my wife and considered along with other inputs as "uncertain" guidance. I cannot tell you with certainty that it was God speaking, but it seems to me that it was. My pastor is also not a cessationist and considers a dream that he had regarding the ministy as very influential. Will he claim that it was certainly God? I don't think that we would make that claim.
My wife and I made a decision to get married on lots of input. Subjective feelings of romance were a large part of the mix along with prophecies and other objective criteria. It would not have been a sin to not marry one another regardless of the prophecy we heard. You may consider me a cessationist but you aren't treating me honestly if you do.
Spen Lake
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/15/2004 1:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Sorry, I didn't intend to imply you personally - I was making a general statement. I wasn't sure exactly where you stood, so I was keeping well away from that.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/16/2004 9:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Don,
I don't know any of the major prophetic guys who insist on being obeyed - most of them go to quite major efforts to avoid such. There is always the freedom to listen to God for yourself, and most of these people teach this. The role of the Prophet is to share things we're not hearing for ourselves, and call us to respond, not demand our response. Evaluation is up to us.
In the same voice, individual freedom in the US model is NOT ever a Biblical concept. It is freedom in Christ, who only ever did what He saw the Father doing. Most of us wouldn't recognise the Father's working of he hit us with it. Another reason why he uses Prophets.
I just finished reading an excellent chapter in Shawn Bolz new book: "The Throne Room Company", where he makes the point that we're called to be lovers of God before lovers of those around us. Most Western christians have the 2 greatest commandments backwards. The second flows out of the first (loving god). I know I struggle with those who seem to have a "blown away" love relationship with the Father, but I recogise that I need to change in this area..
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/16/2004 9:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
Most Western christians have the 2 greatest commandments backwards. The second flows out of the first (loving god).
AMEN | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/16/2004 6:03 PM (GMT -6) | | On guidance:
When we came to Adelaide from Sydney in 1997 on holiday, we attended a "Catch the Fire" conference, and both Sarah and I felt the Lord was calling us to move to Adelaide. One of the speakers moved in the prophetic so we asked him for advice. He prayed for us both and prophesied a number of details that were on our hearts (though we hadn't shared them with him) - confirming what we were sensing from the Lord. Most have already been fulfilled (even the house - picket fence goes up in 3 weeks), and the financial provision the Lord has blessed us with in the last 2 years.
We went back, resigned and moved, and God has looked after us every step of the way. It didn't always look as though we'd done the right thing at particular times, but became clear as we persevered.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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