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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/5/2003 7:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | Does the free-will argument SIGNIFICANTLY ground your faith in God?
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/5/2003 9:01 AM (GMT -6) | | | F: how can there be no choice if God must presuave you...sounds like youre very confused about the issue | | Back to Top | | |
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Tiggers
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219
| Posted 9/5/2003 10:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Great Question Meph,
“Does the free-will argument SIGNIFICANTLY ground your faith in God?”
Tiggers Reply,
I do sympathize with what Modes is proclaiming, i.e., “my faith rests on the power of God, and nothing else. There exists no set of propositions that, when followed by ‘therefore,’ yields faith. “ Now, while I resonate with Mode’s proclamation, I am a little more tentative in making the assertion regarding the “no set of propositions,” you see, we all work from different philosophical frameworks (knowingly or unknowingly) , and these frameworks, for good and bad, really draw one’s conclusion (e.g., take if you will, the Jesus Seminar, i.e., as the Doc has asserted in “Cynic Sage or Son of God” the Seminar begins with their conclusion {A naturalistic worldview (presupposition) going into the Jesus Study will ultimately bring one to a natural human Jesus or Sage}…hence, the Seminar’s starting with their conclusion.) Sooo, on the real, I realize that I do not save myself at all, but rather it is Christ that saves me to salvations fullest extant; furthermore, my free will (while important in the process) only really grants me the ability to surrender to God (e.g., to choose to love God and accept her/his love or to choose the opposite). Ok, so to put an end to my babble  , for now anyways, I will have to proclaim that MY philosophical presuppositions do significantly affect my faith. Again, thanks for the good question and making me think, truly.
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 9/5/2003 12:14 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/5/2003 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/5/2003 2:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Tiggers, my point is simply that faith is in Christ, not in propositions about Christ. We are saved by grace through the person of Christ, not the proposition. The devil believes the proposition but rejects the person. Granted, as a Christian, I also agree with certain propositions about God, Christ, the Bible, etc, but that is not sufficient to account for the faith that demonstrates our absolute dependance upon Jesus Christ.
Another common version of this sort of error is to say (without qualification) that the Bible is the Word of God. No, Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1) and the Bible is the faithful witness, the inspired testimony to who Christ is. We have faith in Christ, and then only indirectly am I convinced of the Bible's trustworthiness...
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/5/2003 7:29 PM (GMT -6) | | I would say yes. With my faith in God, do I search for a faith that will make most out of Him or most out of me. Up until this time the thought that we don't have free-will and that God is sovereign and controling in everything, helps me to understand God's greatness. If I did believe in free-will, I could but imagine and strain on the possiblity that perhaps, as Luther said, I'm making God subject to me and that I'm meriting my salvation. Does it matter for salvation? God saves people with horrible theology, which is good, lest all of us should perish.
g n p
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 9/6/2003 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph,
I think this is a trick question! 
I had faith while not believing in freewill and I continue to have faith, even though I now believe in freewill. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 9/6/2003 9:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by fyodor
quote:
To my understanding, we have faith in God because He has shown himself worthy to be trusted, in Scripture as well as in our personal experience.
Please explain this more....
To me it seems as though this would be the scariest God to trust in, one whom must show that He is worthy.
Hi fyodor,
I subscribe to the definition of faith as "trust that inspires love." God doesn't need to "show" anything more to prove to me that He is worthy of all praise, honor, glory, and love. In my view He already has.
In my understanding, those who do not believe are simply denying what they already know to be true through revelation of Creation (Romans 1), Conscience (Romans 2), or Special Revelation of the Law of God (Romans 3). As Paul says, all who reject God are "without excuse." In other words, I don't find that in my view God must yet prove himself worthy, for He in fact already has done so, in all His works, most notably in the atonement of Christ for the sins of all the people.
I take it by your use of a Kierkegaard quote in your signature that you are an advocate of the "leap" concept of faith. (If I am mistaken on this point concerning your views, please forgive me). If faith is viewed as a leap, then in the end I don't see how we have anything more dependable than a Buddhist or an Islamist does. And that seems QUITE scary to me.
If I am wrong and determinism is correct, I obviously will not have been able to help what I believed. I do ultimately cast myself at Christ's wounded feet for mercy. If He has not chosen to bestow mercy on me, it obviously could not have been any other way, and so in a sense one could possibly say that I am a bit fatalistic. However, since I find abundant evidence in Scripture and in my own experience to convince me of the fact of God's benevolence, I am not afraid that I could be wrong. Simply put, I trust God because he has already made it quite clear that He can be trusted. I need no further evidence than what I have already examined in Scripture and have perceived in my own experience of God. For example, miracles in our family's life, unexplainable by any means other than a benevolent Supreme Being. And I don't mean mere coincidences.
Another powerfully convincing evidence I have of God is the witness of the Holy Spirit with my own spirit, that I am his child. I have no doubt whatsoever that God has led me in many times and in many ways throughout my life.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/7/2003 5:53 AM (GMT -6) | | So Modes, you are a determinist, if you believe there are no set of propositions...why preach the gospel at all then...people will either have an experience of God or not.
John E. I would be right next to you... | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/7/2003 6:01 AM (GMT -6) | | "But not all the Israelities accepted the good news. FOr Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed our message?' Consequently, faith coming from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear. Of course they did."
We hear to believe. We must accept the message. Therefore the message must be digested by a brain that can register what it is saying. Throughout the NT, knowledge is required. We need the God's power to believe, but we must accept the message and choose to believe it. Then God's power kicks in. The attitude that no set of propositions is needed makes one wonder why God would be so wasteful as to make us do something that isn't needed for salvation.
BTW, Modes, your verse really has nothing to do with the question specifically. I think we would all agree with the belief that our faith rests in God's power. We live by God's power. But there are other factors involved in arriving to the place of belief.
From your post I would say you are a determinist in open sheep's clothing... | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/7/2003 6:50 AM (GMT -6) | | OK, I voted no. I'm with Modes on this one. But still, I totally appreciate that theodicy IS an issue many unbelievers have to work through in coming to faith. FOr these there is no question that believing in an all determining God is out of the question. And I know that even those of us who answered no to Mephi's poll would be try to offer sensitive answers to the concerns of such seekers. My faith may not rest on the free will defense, but perhaps others who haven't yet experienced the power of God Modes speaks of will need some reason to be open to such an experience. Maybe encountering propositional truth can be, or lead to, a powerful experience upon which our conviction and assurance comes to rest.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tiggers
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219
| Posted 9/7/2003 8:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Mode’s Asserts,
Tiggers, my point is simply that faith is in Christ, not in propositions about Christ. We are saved by grace through the person of Christ, not the proposition. The devil believes the proposition but rejects the person. Granted, as a Christian, I also agree with certain propositions about God, Christ, the Bible, etc, but that is not sufficient to account for the faith that demonstrates our absolute dependance upon Jesus Christ.
Tigger’s Reply,
Hey Modes, I just want you to know how much I look up to you and your awesome intellect, truly! God has definitely blessed you, and he has used you to inspire me to think more humbly and fervently; God’s grace always be with you, brother in Christ!
I fully concur with you, in that, “faith is in Christ, not propositions about Christ;” furthermore, as I asserted above, it is only Christ that saves NOT us…sooo, on the real, we are on the same page here. Nevertheless, with regards to “that [‘believing certain propositions about God, Christ, the Bible, etc’] is not sufficient to account for the faith that demonstrates our absolute dependence upon Jesus Christ,” I am still tentative in this assertion. First, this statement sounds a bit deterministic to me, (why?) because it seems (in my limited understanding) that God places faith upon a person, not the person placing their faith on/in God (or in my words above, “surrendering to God”). For me, there is a nudging, if you will, of the big H.S. upon all humanity and it is up to humanity (in what ever form the revelation has been given her/him to accept)…now, if one were to say that saving faith is only given by God, then the free libertarian choice seems to go by the way side (e.g. the ability to love God…ok, ok, assuming love is a choice to be made…hmmm, those darn presuppositions again!) My first point, in a nutshell is, in order to make a choice about something, there are many factors that lead up to ones faith (assuming faith is a continual action (another one of my presups) for one to have a faith in God then, includes but is not limited to the H.S., presups, the contingent choices of others & yourself, etc.
Second, well…how about the problem of evil? In my understanding of the God at War deal, regarding “the problem with the problem of evil,” (i.e., the Biblical text revolves around going against this evil (warfare theodicy), as if God doesn’t want it, not intellectualizing the problem with regards to explaining God’s determination of a particular evil), obviously we can go into great detail, but I will try and stay on track. I like mackie’s take on evil, and that is, “The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends.” You see, to me, this problem of evil gives birth to need for dependence and absolute surrender to our triune God (I’m not saying it’s the scariness of evil that brings me to faith, rather, it’s seeing evil in contrast to love, and seeing then a glimpse of her/his beauty). Sooo, for me, knowing God does not need to cause or even use evil to reach her/his ends, but rather calls us (the church) to go against evil, leads me to an adequate God worthy of worship.
TGB Asserts,
“My faith may not rest on the free will defense, but perhaps others who haven't yet experienced the power of God Modes speaks of will need some reason to be open to such an experience. Maybe encountering propositional truth can be, or lead to, a powerful experience upon which our conviction and assurance comes to rest.”
Tigger’s Reply,
Tom, what does this mean, “perhaps others who haven't yet experienced the power of God Modes speaks of will need some reason to be open to such an experience.” I know you meant this out of love, and not judgment, Tom, right? Tom, in the years you were undecided, regarding Open Theism, you were the Socrates I could only dream to be, that is, you were always questioning, and understanding thoroughly the consequences of your beliefs, always searching for truth, and standing on it wherever it was found. Furthermore, I believe while your beliefs are more understood now…well, I was wondering if you wouldn’t mind rethinking this proclamation (or at least explain it to me). For me, I understand this statement as such…
Tiggers has not yet experienced the power of God Modes speaks of, and thus, believes (as a crutch) in free will propositions for his faith.
Ok, I don’t understand how one can logically go from a free will presups leading to one’s faith, to concluding that those who believe this way are spiritually immature, or if you would like, having not experienced the power of God. Tom, now not that it matters, but no matter where you go on this issue, it’s cool, and I have nothing but God’s love for ya, peace!
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers 
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/7/2003 10:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tom, what does this mean, “perhaps others who haven't yet experienced the power of God Modes speaks of will need some reason to be open to such an experience.” I know you meant this out of love, and not judgment, Tom, right? Tom, in the years you were undecided, regarding Open Theism, you were the Socrates I could only dream to be, that is, you were always questioning, and understanding thoroughly the consequences of your beliefs, always searching for truth, and standing on it wherever it was found. Furthermore, I believe while your beliefs are more understood now…well, I was wondering if you wouldn’t mind rethinking this proclamation (or at least explain it to me). For me, I understand this statement as such… Tiggers has not yet experienced the power of God Modes speaks of, and thus, believes (as a crutch) in free will propositions for his faith.
Oh gosh, my goodness no. I didn’t have you in mind at all! My point was that in agreeing with Modes that our faith doesn’t rest primarily on propositional truths (but as the passages Modes quoted point out, on the powerful reality of encountering God personally), I at the same time recognize that for many unbelievers who are searching, opening themselves up to experiencing God will be difficult unless they first find some answers. That was all.
quote:
Ok, I don’t understand how one can logically go from a free will presups leading to one’s faith, to concluding that those who believe this way are spiritually immature, or if you would like, having not experienced the power of God. Tom, now not that it matters, but no matter where you go on this issue, it’s cool, and I have nothing but God’s love for ya, peace!
My point was just that free will presups didn’t lead to my faith. I didn’t engage those issues at all in coming to Christ. I was only thirteen. I engaged them much later, after the fact. So it couldn’t possibly be for me that my faith rested on the free will defense. I had faith before even knowing what the free will defense was! But there are others, seeking God, but who have not yet believe who have passionately engaged issues related to theodicy. In their case, I think the free will defense, if it doesn’t provide the basis for faith, will at least make believing a viable option.
Make sense? I wasn’t suggesting that believers who see in the free will defense a basis for their faith are spiritually immature. Not at all.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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