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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 12/3/2004 3:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | quick question. Why would Jesus suggest that we pray like this? (see bold)
quote:
"Matthew 6:9-13 9 "Pray, then, in this way: `Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 `Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 `Give us this day our daily bread. 12 `And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 `And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Even though He's not THE tempter, are their times He "leads us into temptation?" If so, what's up with that? If not, why would we pray for Him not to?
thanks for your help anyone who helps...
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/3/2004 4:38 AM (GMT -6) | | That's a hard one, Selah.
But what first occurs to me is that we should consider this prayer BOTH as it functions privately AND as it functions corporately in the gathering of faithful.
The next thing that occurs to me is a book I enjoyed:
http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=214
Our Father
Alexander Schmemann
ISBN 0-88141-234-1
5 x 7
96 pp
Price: US $9.95
This commentary on the Lord's Prayer has been complied from a series of broadcasts made by Fr Alexander Schmemann on Radio Liberty to listeners in the former Soviet Union. Because this single short prayer of Christ has everything that needs to be said about God, his kingdom, this life - about all of us - it is not an exaggeration to suggest that in this commentary Fr Schmemann provides us with a map for seeing anew the purpose and measure of our whole life. Fr Schmemann awakens in us a fresh understanding of these familiar petitions. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/3/2004 4:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Good Q Selah. I lika youra minda! I'd like to think on this too. I don't think it's "trying too hard" to want simply to understand what the words of Scripture mean. And that's all you're doing.
I've read this too and, unconsciously I suppose, wondered about it. What seems to make the LEAST sense to me is praying this while also believing that whether and what I pray are both equally unconditionally determined by God. Seems its meaning should take into account the very real, libertarian given-and-take of the world. Seems clear enough (for the moment at least!) that "lead us not into temptation" means the opposite of what it's juxtaposed with, that is, "deliver us from evil." And we already agree that though God does what God can do to prevent and minimize evil, our prayers are at least ONE of the factors that influence how much God is able to do (assuming, as we argue, that God does make SOME of his involvment in the world contingent upon our prayers). Seems to be that this is what's going on here in Jesus' prayer.
For starters,
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/3/2004 4:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Schmemann points out that it was very early that this same passage began causing problems for people.
But as to its companion, "from the evil one" is its literal reading.
Schmemann goes on, that evil comes to us as temptation, as doubt, cynicism, helplessness. "The awesome force of evil does not lie in evil as such, but in its destruction of our faith in goodness -- our conviction that good is stronger than evil. This is the very meaning of temptation. ... For the Christian attitude towards evil consists precisely in the understanding that evil has no explanation, no justification, no basis, that it is the root of rebellion against God, falling away from God, a rupture from full life, and that God does not give us explanations for evil, but strength to resist evil and power to overcome it. And again this victory does lies not in the ability to understand and explain evil but rather in the ability to face it with the full force of faith, the full force of hope, the full force of love. For it is by fiath, hope, and love that temptations are overcome, they are the answer to temptation, the victory over tempations, and therefore the victory over evil."
Hope that helps, Selah!
- P o W | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/3/2004 5:00 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 12/3/2004 10:54 AM (GMT -6) | | I love you guys :)
Tom said quote:
Seems clear enough (for the moment at least!) that "lead us not into temptation" means the opposite of what it's juxtaposed with, that is, "deliver us from evil."
This was my first thought too. (I went over it and over it and over it... ) Of course our prayers influence God, but, if you think about it, it still doesn't make much sense as to why we would ever need to influence God in this area. Right? I can't imagine praying with my children "Father, lead us not into temptation today."
It seems very odd.
In His very short illustration on how we ought to pray, why did Jesus INCLUDE this? After all, He could have left it out and just said "deliver us from evil."
know what I mean?
John/Spen I think you're onto something, but I'll have to study a little later. Tell me if you know other verses where God leads/led someone into a possible temptation event?
PoW...wellllllllllllll hello stranger - thanks for your thoughts too! I'm going to check out that book and others that were written specifically on this subject. (ps. please send me some Icons via email when you get a chance. I love em and I need a little pick up, thanks :)
for starters indeed!
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 12/3/2004 12:02 PM (GMT -6) | | 2 Samuel 24:1
Now again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
Parallel passage: Seems to equate Satan with the anger of the Lord.
1 Chron 21:1
Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel.
Interesting inferences regarding the above verses are found in Job.
The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.”
Other interesting passages on temptation. We find sovereignty (God allows), free will (self-control), and demonic oppression (Satan tempting) all intertwined.
“Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
When He arrived at the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray,
Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated(men of whom the world was not worthy)
if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.
I find that God's response and "rescuing" seems linked to our honoring His authority and sovereignty. Odd...
Spen Lake
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Tom
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| Posted 12/3/2004 1:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Don't have my Greek right here. But if the word for "temptation" here is peirasmos, then it also stands in for "trial/testing."
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/3/2004 1:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake, I understood not a thing from your post on how you actually would answer Selah's question. Several of your passages speak of "trial" and "testing" and not what we normally think of as "temptation" to evil.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/3/2004 2:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen: I think only a masochist would pray for either temptation or trials. Why do you think that they are different.
Tom: Because I think God "tests" us but doesn't "tempt" us to sin.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/3/2004 2:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah-
Check these out:
1) http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LAL/is_3_31/ai_94330381/pg_2
2) http://renewalfellowship.presbyterian.ca/channels/r04201-5.html
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 12/3/2004 2:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Spen: I think only a masochist would pray for either temptation or trials. Why do you think that they are different.
Tom: Because I think God "tests" us but doesn't "tempt" us to sin.
Tom
]Tom,
I understand your "thinking" but it doesn't seem strong based upon the scriptures. The words used for tempting/testing occur 55 times in the New Testament (peirasmos-20 times; peirazoô-35 times). Over 50 times we see men testing God and the devil tempting/testing men, but not God testing men. It seems that He allows the devil to test them for Him. Of all these times it is used I can find only the following 2 examples that God may have tested. Jesus tested His disciples with a question and in Hebrews we see "Abraham was tested" (not stated by whom) regarding slaying Isaac. We see in Rev 2 that the devil will throw some into prison so that they would be tested. It seems to me your thinking is weak concerning this unless you can help me understand you better with scriptures.
Therefore Jesus, lifting up His eyes and seeing that a large crowd was coming to Him, said* to Philip, “Where are we to buy bread, so that these may eat?” This He was saying to test him, for He Himself knew what He was intending to do
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Spen Lake
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JET
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Total Posts : 397
| Posted 12/3/2004 3:01 PM (GMT -6) | | From TGB's second link:
http://renewalfellowship.presbyterian.ca/channels/r04201-5.html
What is Jesus teaching us to pray? I think it is this: "Father, as you lead us into the test, do not let the test become a temptation, but deliver us from the evil-one." Or, "Father, you know that we cannot stand up under very much pressure. As you lead us to the test -- all of life is a test! -- as you seek to prove and improve our faith, do not let the test become a temptation, a seduction to sin, but deliver us from the subtle wiles of the deceiver against whom we are no match. Father, rescue us from the evil one!" | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/4/2004 1:30 AM (GMT -6) | | I liked Darrell Johnson's article too. But I gotta tell ya, a good part of it just doesn't make sense to me. Now, spenlake says:
quote:
What are tests except for temptations?
I say, every test is an occasion for temptation, and every temptation becomes either a test failed or won. But they're not one and the same thing. As a father (oh gee, another analogy from OUR being parents; let's hope this isn't dismissed as rediculous), I test my children. I test them. I want to improve their minds, characters, and bodies. My purpose is proven character, a proven life. You don't get that without "being proved," and that's precisly what a "test" is. But there's also no way to get around the fact that each and every "test" can be failed. More specifically, each and every test is the occasion for our own flesh (James says each is tempted when drawn away by the flesh; the devil doen't need to be anywhere nearby). But I still see a difference in God's activity in a circumstance "testing" us and the enemy's (or our own flesh's) activity providing an opportunity to (like Eve) doubt God and serve self. So yes, spen, every event which "tests" us also provides an opportunity for us to fail the test. That's the definition of a "test." But that doesn't make the testER a temptER.
This is the problem I have with Johnson's take on Jesus' prayer. Johnson says the sixth petition amounts to "Lord, as you lead us in life, life's 'test', don't let the 'test' become an 'temptation'." My reply is, there is no way a "test" cannot BUT, by defintion, also occasion an opporunity for sin. Or am I missing something?
spenlake again:
quote:
This prayer is appealing to God's sovereignty to not allow the devil to tempt us.
Given the fact that our own flesh is behind temptation (James) and the devil doesn't have to be within a hundred miles for us to be tempted, I don't see how Jesus can be understood as thining the devil is personally behind every person's every temptation. Not possible.
The problem is that in examining the two juxtaposed parts (God, YOU lead us not into peirasmos but YOU deliver us from the EVIL ONE) it appears that in the first part God is responsible for leading or not leading us into what in the second part the Evil One is responsible for. That's the problem Selah's talking about. Right, Selah? And that's no fixed by (as Johnson says) understanding the prayer to mean "God, lead us into "tests" but don't let the tests become "temptations." That doesn't work because, as I understand it, it's impossible that a test not also provide an occasion for sin, just as it is that every temptation to sin which we triumph over "proves" (tests) us. What would a "test" which does NOT occasion an opportunity for failure and sin look like? I don't know. So Johnson doesn't convince.
Anybody read the first (Jeffrey Gibson's) article?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/4/2004 1:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Gibson's article has six parts. I only posted the second. But the third and fourth are interesting too.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LAL/is_3_31/ai_94330381/pg_3
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LAL/is_3_31/ai_94330381/pg_4
But I don't see that Gibson addresses Selah's question, which is, why ask God not to do what you and God both know God can't and would never do? What does it mean to ask God not to lead us into "temptation to sin" if we also believe God "tempts no one"? What healthy child would say to a perfectly loving and affectionate Father, "Oh please, Dad, don't take me to the drug-and-porno infested part of town where prostitutes stand on every corner and drug wars rage out of control and drop me off at midnight! Please don't do that to me!" What IS it we are asking God?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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