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Lomman
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Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 12/7/2004 4:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | Greetings all,
I just finished reading a book by Thomas Talbott entitled The Inescapable Love of God. Towards the end, Talbott poses the argument that a fully informed choice to reject God could never be considered rational (b/c there could be no rational motive for making such a choice), and thus it is incoherent to say that someone freely rejects God forever. This would seem to imply that libertarian free will itself is unintelligible, and no moral being could be held responsible for such an irrational choice, in the end. The only just thing God could do for them would only be to free them from their self-delusion by revealing to them the error of their ways, and the full truth. Talbott explains: "If someone does something in the absence of any motive for doing it and in the presence of an exceedingly strong motive for not doing it, then he or she displays the kind of irrationality that is itself incompatible with free choice. A necessary condition of free choice, in other words, is a minimal degree of rationality on the part of the one who acts freely." He then goes on to say, "A free choice implies not only indeterminism of a certain kind, but a minimal degree of rationality as well. The latter is required in order to distinguish a free choice from a purely random event or chance occurrence, such as the unpredictable change of state of a radium atom, and it also limits the range of possible free choice. That which is utterly pointless, utterly irrational, and utterly inexplicable will simply not qualify as a free choice for which one is morally responsible."
Let me say that I've always been a firm believer in libertarian free will. However, Talbott's argument really got me thinking! I mean, if a fully informed choice to sin by its very nature is irrational, how could God hold any agent responsible for making such a choice, and condemn them to an eternity in hell? And if a fully informed decision to reject God is not irrational, what possible rational motive could there be to do so, fully knowing that he has our best interests at heart, and that we could not be truly happy without yielding to him? To really know this truth for a fact, experientially, how could any choice to reject him be considered rational and truly free?
Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
God bless,
Lomman
"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to promote justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:8
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The Russian Judge
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Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 12/7/2004 5:00 AM (GMT -6) | | William Lane Craig on Talbott's pipedream:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/talbott1.html
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/talbott2.html
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 12/7/2004 5:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Lomman,
quote:
Let me say that I've always been a firm believer in libertarian free will. However, Talbott's argument really got me thinking! I mean, if a fully informed choice to sin by its very nature is irrational, how could God hold any agent responsible for making such a choice, and condemn them to an eternity in hell? And if a fully informed decision to reject God is not irrational, what possible rational motive could there be to do so, fully knowing that he has our best interests at heart, and that we could not be truly happy without yielding to him? To really know this truth for a fact, experientially, how could any choice to reject him be considered rational and truly free?
Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
The reason why all choices are not completely rational is because not all decisions are made dispassionately even WHEN we have sufficient facts. Our passions and desires truly affect our objectivity - they can actually move us to suppress/deny facts. In other words, doing the rational thing is not the EASY thing. Therefore, people have an interest in believing what makes life EASY.
The biblical concept of watchfulness is particularly relevant here. We are to gird up the loins of our mind, knowing that it is our tendency to be taken off guard and be swept away to irrational non-objectivity by our passions, desires, etc.
On the other hand, the hardening of the heart may very well make some choices impossible which were once possible. So, there can be true points of no return in a human's psychological evolution. I.e., a person's free-will can be diminished by hardening of the heart, addictions, etc. It doesn't seem to be true that all people are equally free in all respects.
Romans 1 speaks of people "having known" facts that make them without excuse. But what is pertinent is that the aorist tense is used there. They KNEW, but now suppress that "knowledge" in a way where they are no longer troubled by it.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/7/2004 5:59 AM (GMT -6) | | A choice can be intelligent and responsible and still be irrational (in the sense of immoral), like when Hitler organized the mass genocide of the Jews. Such a plan obviously requred the use of intelligence, diabolical as it was.
In saying we have the power of rationality, we are not saying that everyone uses their rational faculties appropriately. In fact, it is precisely because they could (and should) have chosen otherwise that they are morally responsible, regardless of how much they have "suppressed the truth in unrighteousness," as Romans 1 says is true of all depraved humans:
Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (their intelligent faculties were misused, and in rejecting the light of truth, their hearts and minds necessarily became darkened and futile in irrationality--JE)
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 ¶ Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Yes, sin is unbelievably STUPID, and is clearly contrary to wisdom (the proper use of intelligence). I submit that this is the mystery of inquity.
Eccl. 12:13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
John
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/7/2004 6:35 AM (GMT -6) | |
http://www.gospeltruth.net/1856OE/560910_moral_insanity.htm
III. This moral insanity is a state of unmingled wickedness. The special feature of it which makes it a guilty state, is that it is altogether voluntary. It results not from the loss of reason, but from the abuse of reason. The will persists in acting against reason and conscience. Despite of the affirmations of reason, and reckless of the admonitions of conscience, the sinner presses on in his career of rebellion against God and goodness. In such voluntary wickedness, must there not be intrinsic guilt?
Besides, this action is oftentimes deliberate. The man sins in his cool, deliberate moments, as well as in his excited moments. If he sins most overtly and boldly in his excited moments he does not repent and change his position towards God in his deliberate moments, but virtually endorses then the hasty purposes of his more excited hours. This heightens his guilt.
Again, his purposes of sin are obstinate and unyielding. In ten thousand ways, God is bringing influences to bear on his mind to change his purposes--but usually in vain. This career of sin is in violation of all his obligations. Who does not know this? The sinner never acts from right motives--never yields to the sway of a sense of obligation--never practically recognizes his obligation to love his neighbor as himself, or to honor the Lord his God.
It is a total rejection of both God's law and gospel. The law he will not obey; the gospel of pardon he will not accept. He seems determined to brave the Omnipotence of Jehovah, and dare his vengeance. Is he not mad upon his idols? Is it saying too much when the Bible affirms--"Madness is in their heart while they live?"
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/7/2004 7:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jeff: The reason why all choices are not completely rational is because not all decisions are made dispassionately even WHEN we have sufficient facts. Our passions and desires truly affect our objectivity - they can actually move us to suppress/deny facts. In other words, doing the rational thing is not the EASY thing. Therefore, people have an interest in believing what makes life EASY.
Now THAT, Bro, rocks. I second that!
Of course, Talbot says that hell strips away all deception, all illusions, so that the one in hell really DOES see things clearly and rationally. My point is that even IF this happens, and we are brought to utter dispassionate reason, we still remain free to choose against God; otherwise, we are not exercising the sort of freedom which alone can move us into a personal, loving, and worshipful experience of God which things I take salvation to mean.
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 12/7/2004 7:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Lomman-
You are on the right track. It is unnatural to sin, but natural to follow God's law (which has been planted in our conscience; Rom. 2:15). Even though the inner man delights in the law of God, it must war against another law which is found in our members (Rom. 7:23). Because the flesh is enmity towards God and is not subject to God's law, those in the flesh are unable to please God (Rom. 8:5,6). Our only hope is that we are no longer in the flesh, but in the spirit (Rom. 8:9). We are to reckon ourselves as if dead and resurrected with Christ and living in newness of spirit (Rom. 6 and 7). Upon resurrection we will no longer be in the flesh, lead by its desires, but fully lead by the spirit and our choices will align with the will of God. The bible does not teach the idea of free will. The bible speaks of being lead by our disposition (Rom. 8:5,6). God locks all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all (Rom. 11:32).
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/7/2004 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Lomman-
By the way, I agree that sin is the ultimate irrational act.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/7/2004 5:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
dis·pas·sion·ate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ds-psh-nt) adj.
Devoid of or unaffected by passion, emotion, or bias.
To say God is "unaffected" by passion, emotion, or bias is simply untrue to Scripture, as far as I can tell. God is touched by the feelings of our infirmities. God was moved in his heart of compassion for mankind to the extent that He sent his Son to redeem them. You get the picture, I'm sure.
Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 The more I called them, the more they went from me; they kept sacrificing to the Ba'als, and burning incense to idols. 3 Yet it was I who taught E'phraim to walk, I took them up in my arms; but they did not know that I healed them. 4 I led them with cords of compassion, with the bands of love, and I became to them as one, who eases the yoke on their jaws, and I bent down to them and fed them. 5 They shall return to the land of Egypt, and Assyria shall be their king, because they have refused to return to me. 6 The sword shall rage against their cities, consume the bars of their gates, and devour them in their fortresses. 7 My people are bent on turning away from me; so they are appointed to the yoke, and none shall remove it. 8 How can I give you up, O E'phraim! How can I hand you over, O Israel! How can I make you like Admah! How can I treat you like Zeboi'im! My heart recoils within me, my compassion grows warm and tender.
(AV has "mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together").
9 I will not execute my fierce anger, I will not again destroy E'phraim; for I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come to destroy.
John
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/7/2004 5:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Lomman: I no longer see Talbott's arguments as near a threat to libertarian free will like I did before.
Tom: Talbot doesn't have a problem with libertarian free will. He affirms it (though I think his universalism can't explain it). What Talbot feels is incoherent is the claim that a person can irrevocably choose hell. It's that specific application of libertarian free will that he finds problematic.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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