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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/14/2004 4:14 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Take a thread title, and jump into the middle, and you are sure to be un-in.the.middle -- because threads unwind.
But here's this title: "The true meaning of Christmas?"
I'll point my feet down the path of the Incarnation.
The wondrous event you describe (the Incarnation) has nothing to do with the holiday called Christmas.
The "true meaning of Christmas" is that it was (and for the most part still is) a pagan holiday celebrating the winter solstice (rebirth of the Sun-God, when days began to get noticeably longer again each year). Virtually all of the cultural traditions surrounding this holiday find their origin in paganism.
The TRUE meaning of Christmas is simply NOT Christ's first Advent.
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And I'll include Gabriel's greeting and blessing in that too. And the circumcision. Not stoping merely at "conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary", of the Apostles' Creed); nor Hippolytus' "Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was begotten by the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary." But, going so far as "incarnate of the Holy Spirit AND the Virgin Mary, and became man."
Breck quotes the words of St Gregory the Theologian, "what is not assumed is not saved." If Jesus of Nazareth was only the divine Word who was "born of the Virgin" yet did not receive human nature from her, then He never "assumed" our humanity. And we are "dead in our sins."
I affirm all the above. Just because I find unscriptural the holiday called Christmas, as to a specific day of the year or even as to its observance at all, does not mean that I in any way deny the historicity of the events surrounding Christ's birth as recorded in Scripture.
John
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2004 1:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
JEE: The wondrous event you describe (the Incarnation) has nothing to do with the holiday called Christmas.
You are choosing there to use the secular hauly-day and not the religious HOLY-day.
But in the rest of what you said its (hopefully) a 365 x 24/7. And that is good.
I "let" it neither be a secular shindig nor a pagan event. I don't want another Hallo-ween.
Question, do you gain anything by this iconoclasm, JEE. And have you thought out what the results might be (beyond your own individual piety, and local separatism) if this was followed widely. Basically, what is BOTH the missions and the spiritual development of removing Christianity from time?
Everyday is the Lord's day. But we gather on it (and not on the Sabbath).
-PoW
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 12/15/2004 3:41 AM (GMT -6) | | So far this has been a good discussion for both sides, both bringing up good points in support of Christmas or not. My concern is that when Jesus walked the earth He never attacked the Law or anything else written in the scriptures, all that He did was in line with the Old Testament. But Jesus did aggressively attack man's traditions. Being that Jesus and His disciples nor the Apostle Paul never instituted the celebration of Christmas, but instead it was instituted by the Roman Catholic church acting under divine Papal authority, should raise a red flag. Is celebrating Christmas a tradition of men? Would Christ return and refer to it as a white sepulcher? That fact that our Easter celebration does not always fall in place with passover, but instead with the spring solstise also put it into the category of man's tradition? I would agree with Jee that Easter is even worse then Christmas because the Easter traditions originated in the very pagan religions that Israel was punished for following, such as ...
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Easter is generally acknowledged to have superseded an old pagan festival in honour of a Germanic spring goddess Eostre.126 The name migrated westward from Asia into Europe with the Germanic peoples, and describes a deity equivalent to Ashtoreth of the Canaanites, the moon-goddess, so-called queen of heaven and mythical wife of Baal. Her origins can be traced to ancient Babel (Babylon).127 According to the Catholic Encyclopaedia, "A great many pagan customs celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter."128
Lent, for example, is reminiscent of the pagan fast of Tammuz, which is also mentioned in scripture: "The Lord said to Ezekiel] thou shalt see greater abominations which they [Israel] do. Then he took me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was towards the north; and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz."129 In paganism the first day of spring (1st Abib in the ancient Hebrew calendar), a new moon, marked the end of a season equivalent to Lent, known as the fast of Tammuz. Tammuz is effectively a type of Baal, who was said to have died a violent death and passed into the underworld. Whereupon his wife/mother, a type of Ashtoreth, pursued him there, in order to have him released. During the resultant winter all vegetation died and animal reproduction ceased. In order to bring about her return, humans fasted and mourned for a period of forty days, known as the fast of Tammuz. According to legend, on the day of her return, accompanied by her resurrected husband/son, spring began.
"Hot crossed buns" are another relic of the cult of Easter/Ashtoreth to which scripture refers. "...the [Israelite] women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, ...that they may provoke me to anger. "130 And elsewhere, "Did we make [the queen of heaven] cakes to worship her.. without our men?"131 The Hebrew word "Khavan," here translated "cakes," only appears these two times in the whole of scripture. Hislop demonstrates that the English word "bun" is derived from the same root, which denotes a bread made to stand erect by leavening.132 He goes on to quote other ancient sources: "One species of sacred bread which used to be offered to the gods, was of great antiquity, and called Boun." "[A worshipper] offered one of the sacred cakes called Boun, which was made of fine flour and honey." Thus the worshipper was consecrated to his or her deity, in this case the queen of heaven/Easter, in a parody and a perversion of the pattern of the worship of the Lord, 133 who expressly forbade the use of either leaven (a raising agent) or honey (a sweetener) in a burned (hot) cereal offerring.134 To do so was to bring the Lord's curse upon oneself.135 Therefore, at the Passover meal on the night that he was betrayed, Jesus took unleavened bread and said, "This is my body [the sacrifice] which is given for you.... "136 Yet it is on Good Friday, the Christian equivalent of Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, that countless Christian households eat "Boun."
The custom of giving Easter eggs to one's friends is also traceable to paganism of the type of Ashtoreth. Her cult involved ritual prostitution as a fertility rite, hence the association with eggs. Babylonian mythology relates a tale of an egg of monstrous size which fell from heaven into the Euphrates and hatched into the goddess Astarte, the Babylonian equivalent of Ashtoreth.137 In ancient Egyptian the egg was associated with the sun-god (type of Baal)138 and dyed eggs were used as sacred offerings at the Easter season.139 In pagan northern Europe eggs were coloured and used as symbols of the goddess of spring.140 Similarly, because of their promiscuity and characteristic springtime mating activities, the hare and the rabbit also became emblems of fertility and of Ashtoreth/Easter. Hence the "Easter Bunny. "141
These are but three of the many customs associated with the return of spring/Ashtoreth, which have gravitated to Easter.
www.familyrestorationmagazine.org/tishrei/tishrei017.htm
My concern is not whether or not Jesus was, is or should be spoken about during the holiday season, but instead how man's traditions have taken over the church, reminiscent to how the Pharissee's traditions took over Israel. Even worse, the christian church has allowed the very pagan practices into the church which resulted in the expulsion of Israel from the promised land.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/15/2004 4:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
MSN Encarta's article on Christmas may be of interest to some. The origins of Christmas are undoubted by scholars.
http://encarta.msn.com/text_761556859___2/Christmas.html
Well congratulations John, you have succeeded in moving beyond shattering my childhood belief in Santa, a new level yes indeed, I no longer even believe in the spirit of Christmas. It was bad enough risking my life on the icy ladder every year so people like you could enjoy the beautiful lights, now this, shame on you, you, you Puritan. No more kissing under the mistletoe. No more “gambling, flamboyant public behavior, and overindulgence in food and drink”.
Chestnuts roasting smoldering on an open fire. - Mark
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/15/2004 8:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Actually, if by "the spirit of Christmas" you mean the spirit of giving, etc., that is something we all should have every day, isn't it?
Yes everyday is special, John. Try applying your philosophy on your wedding anniversary, St. Valentine’s Day or your wife’s birthday.  | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/15/2004 9:50 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/15/2004 10:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Our wedding anniversary and my wife's birthday are observances of real historical events that have deep meaning for us, and there's nothing inherently "Christian" (or non-Christian) involved in them. And they certainly aren't made-up "holidays" based on false assumptions and compromise with pagan customs. 
Every day is special, just like every other day.
We used to celebrate my younger brothers birthday on May 4th. When he became a young adult we found out that his true birthday was on the 5th. Do you really think it took away from the love we shared with him for all of those years when we were in error?
You really don’t know the true date of Christ’s birthday, so what if we observe it on Dec. 25th. We celebrate all kinds of holidays on other dates. Memorial Day comes to mind, what is the big deal about the technicality of the true date? Did you have a bad Christmas experience as a child? | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/15/2004 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Our wedding anniversary and my wife's birthday are observances of real historical events that have deep meaning for us, and there's nothing inherently "Christian" (or non-Christian) involved in them. And they certainly aren't made-up "holidays" based on false assumptions and compromise with pagan customs.
Every day is special, just like every other day.
Did you have a bad Christmas experience as a child?
No, I still have very many happy Christmas memories from childhood. In any case, that makes no difference as to whether or not the holiday known of as Christmas is scripturally supported nor whether or not Dec. 25th is REALLY Jesus' birthday.
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We used to celebrate my younger brothers birthday on May 4th. When he became a young adult we found out that his true birthday was on the 5th. Do you really think it took away from the love we shared with him for all of those years when we were in error?
No.
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You really don’t know for sure when Christ’s birthday is. We celebrate all kinds of holidays on other dates. Memorial Day comes to mind, what is the big deal about the technicality of the true date?
Memorial Day is a secular observance in honor of our fallen soldiers, which began to be observed after the Civil War. Nobody's birthday is being recognized, and no particular date at all is being recognized per se.
Don't you think we should be honest and truthful as much as possible when we claim to observe the birthday of GOD's Son, though?
If Christmas were such an important holiday to observe, wouldn't you think God would have plainly stated it in his Word? Many, many important events in the Old Testament were specifically initiated by God himself as holidays for the Jews. Why didn't God make a big deal and specify the necessity of observing His Son's birthday?
John
Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
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Truth Aficionado
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Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/15/2004 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
No, I still have very many happy Christmas memories from childhood. In any case, that makes no difference as to whether or not the holiday known of as Christmas is scripturally supported nor whether or not Dec. 25th is REALLY Jesus' birthday.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, John. I agree that we can/should make it clear that Dec. 25th is the date we only observe Christ’s birthday and not necessarily the true date of his birth. But are you going to deprive your little girl this coming Christmas season the same joyous childhood memories you experienced as a youth?
God can take what was meant for bad (pagan holiday to celebrate the sun) and transform it into something good (the celebration of his Son). | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2004 12:46 PM (GMT -6) | | John, I had thought you would share my interest in missions. But instead you posted synicism.
In the REAL multiethnic and multicultural marketplace where I work, the gospel is witnessed to and spread LOTS OF WAYS.
That's more important than 'cool' answers. (I didn't care much for that synicism.)
May those who see pictures, hear stories, and sing songs be reached.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2004 12:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Truth is that in the 'market place' of Chicago, Christmas" is a marketplace of many competing missionaries and missions.
Nice academic sentiments aren't very useful. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 12/15/2004 1:45 PM (GMT -6) | | | John: I don't believe it is a scipturally mandated holiday ( I know of no one who does. Perhaps you could quote someone who does). Nor do I believe it is Christ's birthday. I believe it is a day set aside to celebrate the birth of Christ. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/15/2004 1:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Strange days indeed, while some Christians are trying to bring the Spirit of Christ back into Christmas there are still other Christians trying to remove the association of Jesus from the celebration.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/15/2004 2:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I am, as usual, being grossly misunderstood in this.
I'm sorry if I have grossly misunderstood you, John? Please explain "I certainly will not mislead her into thinking it is Christ's birthday or that in observing it we are somehow giving honor to Him". It sounds to me like you are protesting giving honor to Christ in observance of Christmas.
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feelinahole
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Total Posts : 754
| Posted 12/15/2004 2:29 PM (GMT -6) | | How do my two sentenses contradict each other John?
For instance, does assigning the fourth Thursday of Nov. each year to celebrate Thanksgiving contradict the fact that we all know that that might not be the exact day? I think your passion is out stripping your logic. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 12/15/2004 2:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, John but one does not have to celebrate a person's birthday on the exact day. Are you trying to tell me that a person cannot celebrate another person's birthday on any other day but their birthday!
Again, your passion and need to be right is out stripping your logic.
A birthday is a day of birth, whether or not you actually celebrate it. It is a fact of a person's birth. A day of celebration for a person's birth can be any day. People do it all the time. I have a small celebration of my wife's birth on June 26 every year because she was born on Dec. 26 and her birthday always got lost in the Christmas rush. Is June 26 my wife's birthday? | | Back to Top | | |
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