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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/15/2004 2:46 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
How is lying to my daughter justifiable in this case? And how does a observing a made-up "birthday of Christ" give any honor to Him at all? I intend to give honor to Him in the life I live daily, not in lip-service I may give to heathen customs.
Who is being “grossly misunderstood” now? I never implied we should lie in order to observe Christ’s birthday. I find it fortunate in this day and age that we have a day set aside to observe the birth of Jesus. To try and remove the reference of Jesus and God in our secular culture goes against the efforts of many loving Christians. . I’m all in favor of removing the commercial aspects of Christmas we have come accustomed to and return it to a holy day of prayer, peace and brotherhood.
Merry Christmas,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2004 3:07 PM (GMT -6) | | | Fact. Early on the Church (The same that instituted "The Lord's Day"--not commanded by Christ but was a tradition that goes back to Emmaus.) The "OBSERVANCE" (A symbolic rather than historical activity.) of the historical life and ministry of Christ was designed to immitate the Paschal observances. Our Lord's Baptism and Birth were both observed together. | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/15/2004 4:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
For the umpteenth time, I'm simply saying:
1. Dec. 25th is not Jesus' birthday.
2. Christians are nowhere instructed in Scripture to observe the Savior's birthday.
3. The historical roots of Christmas, as is well known to historical scholarship, are virtually 100% pagan.
4. Therefore, to condemn someone for not observing this holiday is profoundly ironic and is inherently hypocritical.
I do not recall that anyone has condemned you or anyone else for not observing Christmas. Did I miss something? If I read Romans 14 correctly, neither those who observe nor those who do not observe should condemn one another. Let each one be convinced in one's own mind, as Paul says. If some have liberty to observe and others do not have liberty to observe, let each do as they are convinced in their own minds.
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2004 4:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Sunday is "The Lord's Day" -- not a Christian sabbath. It's the EIGHTH day. It is the emblem of the eschata. But every day belongs to the Lord. Every hour, every minute, every second...
And we can gather together anytime.
But, that both what is to come and what is now belongs to God is vital. And in our worship this must be so. So, in worship we are constantly living to prepare for worship, that in worship we might prepare for living.
And that we somehow observe both the temporal and the transcendent is a very real need of ours.
Christmas is a pause in our lives where we, in the stream of our lives, intentionally notice the life that infuses all the minutes of our life in Him. Each moment we are to bear Christ in our hearts.
The people gathering make the day THE DAY. Not astronomy. It is the day beyond days. The day that dwells in all the others, and is beyond them.
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 12/15/2004 6:15 PM (GMT -6) | | | John: peace be with you this Christmas season no matter how you do or don't celebrate it. If I have ever condemned you for not celebrating the season, I do apologize. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/16/2004 4:32 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Gerry Attrick
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/16/2004 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
To my way of thinking, to say someone is wrong for doing something or (not doing something) is the same thing as condemning them.
John
Then, should all who read this thread and celebrate Christ's advent, using the desgination "Christmas" to describe this (accommodating the conventions of tradition), feel condemned because you have asserted that Christmas is pagan and that people who celebrate Christmas are wrong?
Just checking.  | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Total Posts : 754
| Posted 12/16/2004 5:56 PM (GMT -6) | | | YOu go, John. I have no problem with you telling the truth. I would be upset if you didn't tell the truth. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/16/2004 6:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
...concerning the historical roots of Christmas, that it is manifestly not "Christ's birthday,"
In what I snipped, there is nothing disagreable at all.
But, neither does that answer the question of what the MEANING of the Feast of Christ (Christ's Mass) is.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/16/2004 6:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Advent liturgy proclaims "Today Christ is born...", for THAT is the point. The point is that Christ is born in our hearts. And that the incarnate Son was forn of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary.
The point is NOT what day of the year. "Today" does not denote a day of the month or a month of the year. "Today" denotes the present.
But neither would iconoclasm be right, manifesting as reluctance to recognize that God was 'born.'
"Today Christ is born..." | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/17/2004 12:58 AM (GMT -6) | | | You didn't disagree with me; though you thought you did. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/17/2004 5:50 AM (GMT -6) | | 1 Cor. 9:20-22 (NRSV)
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) so that I might win those under the law. [21] To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law) so that I might win those outside the law. [22] To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some.
I still don't understand, John. What is wrong with taking a pagan day of celebration and turning it into a day of praise and worship?
May the season bring you Peace, Joy and Love - Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/17/2004 6:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
I still don't understand, John. What is wrong with taking a pagan day of celebration and turning it into a day of praise and worship?
Nothing, I suppose. However, calling it "Christ's birthday," and acting as if celebrating this holiday is the defining characteristic of Christianity (as some seem to assume) would be patently false. I don't celebrate Christ-mass for precisely the same reason that I am not Roman Catholic (or Eastern Orthodox, PoW  ). Praying to Mary, works of penance, the doctrine of purgatory, and Christmas all stem from the same syncretistic impulse in post-Nicene Christianity.
quote:
May the season bring you Peace, Joy and Love - Mark
I trust that Christ is more than sufficient to bring me peace, joy, and love, not any particular season. But thanks for the kind thoughts.
Blessings in Christ to you today and forever.
John
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/17/2004 6:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I don't celebrate Christ-mass for precisely the same reason that I am not Roman Catholic (or Eastern Orthodox, PoW ). Praying to Mary, works of penance, the doctrine of purgatory, and Christmas all stem from the same syncretistic impulse in post-Nicene Christianity.
Aaaha, so it’s not the pagans you’re boycotting after all, it’s our fellow Catholics. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/17/2004 8:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Looks like Christmas is irrelevant for JEE.
But it didn't look irrelevant for Jo-Anne
quote:
Interesting Pow...thanks. ...Christmas...I see it as a time of concentrated focus on the birth of Christ, and the purpose for His incarnation in our lives. It is also a time when more people are open to the gospel message than any other time of year. It is a time when there are more hurting, lonely people open to a touch from the Savior (which often comes through our hands, through our voice...). We have to pick a time. December 25th is a wonderful time of year as far as I'm concerned. It is the Spirit of the holiday that is more important than the exact date, or details.
Merry Christmas!
Jo-Anne
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/17/2004 8:05 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
It is the Spirit of the holiday that is more important than the exact date, or details.
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