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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/14/2004 7:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | Okay I’ve heard enough  bashing the spirit. I’m taking you both off my Christmas list!  | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 12/14/2004 7:11 AM (GMT -6) | | | John and i have been around on that one and we have agreed to disagree. I believe a holiday is what you make it. I do not have to commanded by scripture to celebrate a holiday. As far as it being a "pagan" holiday, I believe a person can redeem any holiday simply by dedicating it to the Lord. Having said that I believe each person should do what is best in their own mind and I certainly would not advocate someone celebrating a holiday that would make them stumble. A holiday can easily become an idol. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/14/2004 7:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I don't believe in the holiday known of as Christmas. It is nowhere commanded in Scripture, is almost certainly NOT Christ's birthday, and is in actuality simply a pagan holiday baptized by compromising Roman Catholicism. Whenever I bring these facts up, I am generally denounced as if I were the anti-Christ or something. 
Ba humbug!
AS GOOD A PLACE TO JUMP IN AS ANY.
Won't argue about Christians 'stealing the thunder' from pagans. Seems a good thing.
But the real history of that is more interesting than JEE might be aware. Christmas as 25th was a SMALL jump from its being celebrated WITH the Feast of Theophany(baptism)/Epiphany on January 6th. And THAT was devised as a counterpart to Pascha (which ONLY in Engliah is called 'Easter.') The Eastern churches have a long, long lenten fast leading up to Christmas.
Why the two (2) feasts, Pascha and Theophany? I'm betting on that one is history/earth bound by being always on the same date. In fact, the whole nine-month thing is born out with the celebration of the Annunciation (Mary got pregnant) on March--you guessed it--25th. And the circumcision is celebrated too. FULLY/TRULY MAN, AND FULLY/TRULY GOD. And so the Paschal Feast that 'travels' across the calendar, and Pentacost with it are the intervention/heaven bound feasts.
Quite symbolic. Quite effective. And not a problem even when the actual Birth of our Lord in the Flesh occurred when the Paschal Lambs were being tended in the fields by shepherds...in preparation for Passover. Those guy's saw the TRUE LAMB! (in March April) | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/14/2004 7:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I don't believe in the holiday known of as Christmas. It is nowhere commanded in Scripture, is almost certainly NOT Christ's birthday, and is in actuality simply a pagan holiday baptized by compromising Roman Catholicism. Whenever I bring these facts up, I am generally denounced as if I were the anti-Christ or something.
Ba humbug!
AS GOOD A PLACE TO JUMP IN AS ANY.
Won't argue about Christians 'stealing the thunder' from pagans. Seems a good thing.
But the real history of that is more interesting than JEE might be aware. Christmas as 25th was a SMALL jump from its being celebrated WITH the Feast of Theophany(baptism)/Epiphany on January 6th. And THAT was devised as a counterpart to Pascha (which ONLY in Engliah is called 'Easter.') The Eastern churches have a long, long lenten fast leading up to Christmas.
Why the two (2) feasts, Pascha and Theophany? I'm betting on that one is history/earth bound by being always on the same date. In fact, the whole nine-month thing is born out with the celebration of the Annunciation (Mary got pregnant) on March--you guessed it--25th. And the circumcision is celebrated too. FULLY/TRULY MAN, AND FULLY/TRULY GOD. And so the Paschal Feast that 'travels' across the calendar, and Pentacost with it are the intervention/heaven bound feasts.
Quite symbolic. Quite effective. And not a problem even when the actual Birth of our Lord in the Flesh occurred when the Paschal Lambs were being tended in the fields by shepherds...in preparation for Passover. Those guy's saw the TRUE LAMB! (in March April)
Interesting Pow...thanks. Our daughter has all but denounced the celebration of Christmas, though she takes part in it still for our sake I think. I see it as a time of concentrated focus on the birth of Christ, and the purpose for His incarnation in our lives. It is also a time when more people are open to the gospel message than any other time of year. It is a time when there are more hurting, lonely people open to a touch from the Savior (which often comes through our hands, through our voice...). We have to pick a time. December 25th is a wonderful time of year as far as I'm concerned. It is the Spirit of the holiday that is more important than the exact date, or details.
Merry Christmas!
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/14/2004 12:53 PM (GMT -6) | | JEE, if you have ever PREACHED on the Nativity of Our Lord According to the Flesh, then you too have celebrated it.
Do so 365 days a year!
Joanne, here's a link for "The Birth of Our Lord and God and Saviour, Jesus the Anointed, Sermons of Pope St. Leo" http://www.arimathea.co.uk/leoxmas.htm
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/14/2004 12:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Joanne, from sermon six of that list:
quote:
II. Christians are essentially participators in the nativity of Christ.
Although, therefore, that infancy, which the majesty of God's Son did not disdain, reached mature manhood by the growth of years and, when the triumph of His passion and resurrection was completed, all the actions of humility which were undertaken for us ceased, yet to-day's festival renews for us the holy childhood of Jesus born of the Virgin Mary: and in adoring the birth of our Saviour, we find we are celebrating the commencement of our own life. For the birth of Christ is the source of life for Christian folk, and the birthday of the Head is the birthday of the body. Although every individual that is called has his own order, and all the sons of the Church are separated from one another by intervals of time, yet as the entire body of the faithful being born in the font of baptism is crucified with Christ in His passion, raised again in His resurrection, and placed at the Father's right hand in His ascension, so with Him are they born in this nativity. For any believer in whatever part of the world that is re-born in Christ, quits the old paths of his original nature and passes into a new man by being re-born; and no longer is he reckoned of his earthly father's stock but among the seed of the Saviour, Who became the Son of man in order that we might have the power to be the sons of GOD. For unless He came down to us in this humiliation, no one would reach His presence by any merits of his own. Let not earthly wisdom shroud in darkness the hearts of the called on this point, and let not the frailty of earthly thoughts raise itself against the loftiness of GOD's grace, for it will soon return to the lowest dust. At the end of the ages is fulfilled that which was ordained from all eternity: and in the presence of realities, when signs and types have ceased, the Law and prophecy have become Truth: and so Abraham is found the father of all nations, and the promised blessing is given to the world in his seed: nor are they only Israelites whom blood and flesh begot, but the whole body of the adopted eater into possession of the heritage prepared for the sons of Faith. Be not disturbed by the cavils of silly questionings, and let not the effects of the Divine word be dissipated by human calculation; we with Abraham believe in GOD and "waver not through unbelief" but "know most assuredly that what the LORD promised, He is able to perform."
http://www.arimathea.co.uk/lesix.htm
Anything else strike you?
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/14/2004 1:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Pre-Christmas texts:
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/pre-christmas.htm
Look how the main actors are: Isaias, Joseph, Bethelehem, Cave, Virgin | | Back to Top | | |
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 12/14/2004 1:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Just wondering, is it an actual fact or is it opinion-turned-factlike that the date of Christmas was decided solely for conversion and evangelistic purposes? If we don't know for sure, here's one of my theories for the Christmas date...
Suppose you live in a community where everyone is pagan and celebrates the pagan holiday and everyone has that day off from work. You don't want to celebrate that holiday because you're now Christian and absolutely don't believe in the pagan holiday-it's worthless to you... yet you and your other few Christian brothers and sisters all have that day off (gee, no football, or even TV! What are we going to do???) You all love Christ and decide, hey, let's have our own celebration... let's have a celebration for God! Then after years and years of this celebration, (knowing people) they look for something to focus on, and eventually start celebrating when the Lord manifested Himself through Jesus and focusing more and more on His birth.
So my take is, if everyone has the day off to have their own celebrations (though pagan and not good), why shouldn't Christians decide to use the day for throwing a celebration for the Lord (something very good)? Is there a possibility that Dec. 25 was chosen not simply for evangelistic purposes, but to throw a party for God?
Just because Christmas is the same day as another pagan holiday, that doesn't make Christmas itself something pagan. (Same goes for Easter)
Unfortunately, now many people do not use the day to throw a party for God, but for family only. I've been guilty of that, unfortunately.
"Reality is harsh to the feet of shadows." - C.S.Lewis, The Great Divorce | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 12/14/2004 3:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
John and i have been around on that one and we have agreed to disagree. I believe a holiday is what you make it. I do not have to commanded by scripture to celebrate a holiday. As far as it being a "pagan" holiday, I believe a person can redeem any holiday simply by dedicating it to the Lord. Having said that I believe each person should do what is best in their own mind and I certainly would not advocate someone celebrating a holiday that would make them stumble. A holiday can easily become an idol.
I would like to add that I do not believe Christmas is a more holy day...
Feelin-
Let me start by saying I am not trying to tell you (or others) that you should not celebrate Christmas. With that said, my question for you is do you celebrate Christmas as a holiday honoring the birth of Christ or in some other way or reason redeeming it to the Lord?
Lock, my point was simply that each should be of good conscience about the subject. If a person believes it is important to celebrate Christmas as Christ's birth, then, yes, they should be fighting to keep Christ in Christmas. If they believe as JEE does, then it wouldn't matter either way to them (I suppose). I believe it is an important holiday to celebrate because it was an important event in the history of the Christian church. So I set aside a day (specifically) to reflect on the event, and a month of days leading up to it to honor the event.
I do have to add that I do not understand JEE's rational about the Apostles not instituting it. Does that mean we can never celebrate any church holiday unless the Apostles instituted it? IS nothing important UNLESS it began with the Apostles?
In the end, though, this certainly isn't a matter of doctrine or theology, so it isn't something I have any interest in converting people to my point of view. Don't believe in celebrating Christmas? I have no problem with that...Merry Christmas, BTW | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | | Is it right to celebrate either Christmas or Easter? It is evident that both celebrations have accumulated pagan elements like barnacles, even from their beginnings. Yet, are the celebrations irredeemable? Should Christians be prohibited from celebrating Christ's advent at this time of the year? Should Christians be prohibited from celebrating the resurrection of Christ in the spring, even though the designation "Easter" derives from pagan sources and only sometimes corresponds to Passover? Why as Christians, can we not celebrate both Christ's birth and resurrection, not merely once a year, but continuously, yet in a distinctive way annually, but not as the world does it? Why not exploit opportunities for the gospel that are brought by the season? Why not redeem the season? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/14/2004 3:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Take a thread title, and jump into the middle, and you are sure to be un-in.the.middle -- because threads unwind.
But here's this title: "The true meaning of Christmas?"
I'll point my feet down the path of the Incarnation. And I'll include Gabriel's greeting and blessing in that too. And the circumcision. Not stoping merely at "conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary", of the Apostles' Creed); nor Hippolytus' "Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was begotten by the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary." But, going so far as "incarnate of the Holy Spirit AND the Virgin Mary, and became man."
Breck quotes the words of St Gregory the Theologian, "what is not assumed is not saved." If Jesus of Nazareth was only the divine Word who was "born of the Virgin" yet did not receive human nature from her, then He never "assumed" our humanity. And we are "dead in our sins."
To Him who is First-born of many brethren, be Glory now and forever, Amen!
Nativity in Minnesota
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