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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/21/2004 6:57 AM (GMT -6) |   | JEE:
quote:
In this view, I do not see how God is still not manifestly sadistic.
"I'm going torture you until you see how GOOD I am. I AM LOVE, and the sooner you realize this, the sooner you'll get out of this hellhole."
Hmmm...just like I was talking about. It really does depend on one's internal view of what hell is possibly like. Some people obviously like to stick with the "fire and brimstone" model. One doesn't NEED to do this. But let's say that one did. How about...
"You're going to be in this fiery place...and I'm going to be here with you. Showing you my love, still. You need to see all of the painful, satanic things you've done...all the pain you've caused yourself and others. All the lies you've believed and internalized. What you've truly been created for. The sooner that you see and FEEL what you've done...and see that there's another way (and there always HAS BEEN), the sooner WE get out of here." | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/21/2004 7:09 AM (GMT -6) | | JEE:
quote:
That some learn to change during their imprisonment doesn't mean everybody learns to do so. In fact, sociological studies demonstrate a terribly high recidivism rate among our prison population.
Big surprise. Our penitentiary (Isn't THAT an irony? Penitentiary from "PENITENT" Heh.) system completely sucks. It's terrible for rehabilitation and effective empowerment for living a healthy existence in society. This is why I believe in relational prison ministries. They HELP people that are generally in situations SET UP for them to fail. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/21/2004 7:18 AM (GMT -6) | | JEE:
quote:
So in your view our prison system is worse than Hell, right?
Hell, yeah (excuse the pun). You know how? Because with hell, justice is intentionally and effectively punitive AND rehabilitative. In most penitentiaries we have now, there is only a MASK of trying to rehabilitate convicts...if that. Mainly its just a punitive captivity to "keep society safe from degenerates"
At least with "hell", there is an empathetic God working WITH us to get us OUT of the pain and self-deceit.
YES, if what I'm saying is true, then hell is MUCH BETTER in intent and end effect than our prison system. Divine justice is MUCH BETTER than human justice. So much better.
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 12/21/2004 8:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph: Then a difference is the way we understand the Scriptures...NOT our core allegiance to the Triune God or the Gospel.
Spen: The gospel does have to do with the Scriptures because without them, the witness of men who saw and heard the God/Man, there is no natural revelation of the gospel. I think that you/me can have screwed up ideas about nephilim, superlapsarian bandages, extreme OV, or universalism and still not really "believe" the ideas that we are playing with. I don't think that the issue of univeralism HAS to be central, but I think that it is getting close.
What I believe is the core issue to many who consider the OV or universalism is that the find the concept of God's judgment and eternal damnation to be offensive. They/we construct belief systems to minimize or eliminate this offense. I see this as a weakness and inconsistent with scriptures. In any case, I would still stand next to you and speak publicly of our sinful condition deserving death, the incarnation of God as a man, His sinless life, His death on our behalf, and His physical resurrection as proof of the promise of eternal life made to us by God speaking as a man. In as much as we confess this I am together with you.
Spen Lake
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 12/21/2004 2:25 PM (GMT -6) | | ViolinForGod,
quote:
Does universalism suggest that God's love for all people is equal? Hmm... I think I'm understanding a bit more about what this type of universalism is talking about, and it seems that this type may not affect the degree of God's love (either as being equal or unequal among all created). I take it that this universalism simply states that all will be saved in the end through God's grace, eventually coming to repentence, but the degree of favor toward each individual could be different though all would be saved.
So I guess what I'm saying (thinking while writing) is that according to what has been discussed here, I don't see how it would force the implication that God's love must be equal for all people if universalism were true.
I was not trying to prove that universalism is false. I was trying to elicit an appreciation for the speculative nature of deducing soteriological theories from the mere fact that "God is love." To me, that one statement does not suffice to prove as much as we might like. And the fact that certain degrees or aspects of God's love vary with respect to different sentient/volitional beings is evidence of that insufficiency, as far as I can tell.
If the "God is love" statement is so absolute as to prove universalism, it would seem that Satan MUST be saved eventually. But the scripture does not seem to even remotely suggest such a thing (correct me if I'm wrong). If, on the other hand, Satan is NOT eventually saved, we must concede that the "God is love" phrase cannot produce ANY and ALL implications that seem benevolent to us. We must have OTHER evidence. That's my take, anyway.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 12/21/2004 9:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Jefscott,quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
I was not trying to prove that universalism is false. I was trying to elicit an appreciation for the speculative nature of deducing soteriological theories from the mere fact that "God is love." To me, that one statement does not suffice to prove as much as we might like. And the fact that certain degrees or aspects of God's love vary with respect to different sentient/volitional beings is evidence of that insufficiency, as far as I can tell.
At this point, I'm not trying to prove universalism as being true or false either; I'm just tossing around the whole issue to see if, when followed through, it holds water or if it doesn't jive with Christianity. (whoa, jive dude! flashback from the 70's & 80's! ... yes my thoughts are sometimes very random!) When I gather as much of the issue as I can, then I'll come to some decision about it.quote:
If the "God is love" statement is so absolute as to prove universalism, it would seem that Satan MUST be saved eventually. But the scripture does not seem to even remotely suggest such a thing (correct me if I'm wrong). If, on the other hand, Satan is NOT eventually saved, we must concede that the "God is love" phrase cannot produce ANY and ALL implications that seem benevolent to us. We must have OTHER evidence. That's my take, anyway.
Yes, I agree with you. Those have been my thoughts as well. My thoughts on this issue while in Walmart's parkinglot were regarding Free Will in the case of ultimately choosing for or rebelling against God. If universalism states that (since there is an infinite amount of time in the future for one to choose Christ) all WILL be saved eventually, then it does follow that Satan WILL be saved as well, unless this "all" excludes non-angelic beings. Additionally, it would follow that one's choosing salvation allows no "mights/might nots"... it's a "will", ie, the choice lying only in the WHEN, not the IF.
If this all follows as I understand it, then it seems to state that there is freedom to choose only in Hell, not in Heaven. (Meph, I was wondering what you thought about this as well. This sort of touches on some of my thoughts when I just read your response... I'll get to responding to your post tomorrow! It's a lot I need to think about. )
And yes, I agree that scripture doesn't seem to give any indication that Satan or the demons will be saved, but instead will be judged. (I hope this all makes sense... it's late and I need sleeeeeep. )
BTW, these smileys are pretty cool! 
BTW part 2 - I appreciate the opportunity to dialog with you all on these issues, though I'm a neophyte at this point 
"Reality is harsh to the feet of shadows." - C.S.Lewis, The Great Divorce | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/22/2004 6:20 AM (GMT -6) | | | Someone (at Trinity Chr. Univ.) said that judgement and Mrcy are the same thing. | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 12/22/2004 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
The rest of this post seems somewhat unrelated to the above Scripture:
aionios means literally "(purpose) of the ages" and is usually thought to describe duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom 16:25; or undefined because endless as in Rom 16:26
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began (chronos aionios),
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God (aionios theos), made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment (kolasis): but the righteous into life eternal.
All of the above scripture is AV
46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
The Concordant Literal New Testament
http://www.concordant.org/version/html.html
kolasis is used only twice in the Bible Mat 25:46, and 1Jo 4:18, "(fear hath) punishment," RV (AV, "torment"), which there describes a process, not merely an effect; this kind of fear is expelled by perfect love; where God's love is being perfected in us, it gives no room for the fear of meeting with His reprobation; the "punishment" referred to is the immediate consequence of the sense of sin, not a holy awe but a slavish fear, the negation of the enjoyment of love.
ekdikesis for 1Pe 2:14, AV, "punishment" (RV, "vengeance").
epitimia in the NT denotes "penalty, punishment," 2Cr 2:6. Originally it signified the enjoyment of the rights and privileges of citizenship; then it became used of the estimate (time) fixed by a judge on the infringement of such rights, and hence, in general, a "penalty."
dike "justice," or "the execution of a sentence," is translated "punishment" in Jud 1:7, RV (AV, "vengeance").
timoria primarily "help" , denotes "vengeance, punishment," Hbr 10:29 as being penal, with reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts it.
Something to think about and then there is Pudding 
Imagination projects unreal images out of the mind and seeks to attach reality to them. Faith creates nothing; it simply reckons upon that which is already there. | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/22/2004 7:04 PM (GMT -6) | | If one grants that God IS love, then one must see all God's attributes and activities as expressions of love. He's not LOVE + justice, but love AS justice. God's wrath is so fierce because his love is so fierce. (This helps me deal with the OT alot). In this light, I think we have to conclude that God will lovingly restore whatever can be restored, for he loves all, and God will lovingly (and vengeancefully) annihilate all that cannot be restored. (Unless someone can render keeping conscious beings in hopeless torment to be an act of perfect love).
So, the question of universalism becomes: Has God made every human (and angels and demons?) such that God can ensure that their identities can be assured of being (sooner or later, however many aeons and however much punishment it may take) restored? We can (and I think should) hope for this, but can we KNOW this? Meph has brilliantly shown how such a view is coherent and consistent, even with the open view of the future. But this stops short of KNOWLEDGE.
And so long as our hope stops short of knowledge, it seems to me our attitude must be one of hope and warning. (I know Meph agrees with this). God loves all enough to put them through hell to win them... and there is no certainty there will be anything left when he's finished.
Hell is age long (ainion) so long as there's hope
and everlasting insofar as there's not.
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/24/2004 5:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg: And so long as our hope stops short of knowledge, it seems to me our attitude must be one of hope and warning.
PoW: Well spoken, Mr. Boyd! | | Back to Top | | |
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CalvinnHobbes
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 12/24/2004 7:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Forgive my driveby suggestion here if this bothers you. . .
I've recently come across an understanding of the gospel that, in my 17 or so years of being a Christian (the last eight immersed in theology and philosophy), I've never heard of before. This understanding of the gospel ends up implying universalism and actually provides a very thought-provoking, beautiful, and quite elaborate foundation for it.
I spent about three months here recently in an intensive book study with about 10 guys (several mennonites, a couple semi-baptists, a Lutheran, an Orthodox believer) going through Paul Among the Postliberals by Douglas Harink. He's an associate professor of theology at the Kings University College in Edmonton, if I recall. Some of the thinkers he draws from include Karl Barth, John Howard Yoder (formerly of Notre Dame), and Stanley Hauerwas (ethics prof at Duke Divinity School).
If you want a very interesting take on what Christ has done with creation in his life, death, and resurrection, I highly recommend the book. I actually don't buy what the author is arguing (in contrast to the majority of my study group), but I nonetheless consider my in-depth exposure to the position one of the best intellectual investments I have ever made. Our group (which involved three pastors) was led by an incredibly well-read and brilliant adherent of the position who happens to be one of the pastors and who lines up with the mennonite tradition in many ways, despite getting his ThD at a Baptist seminary. The book really got me to see things from an angle that I'm not sure I ever could have imagined. I think the position is absolutely fascinating, although I think it has quite a few important things to explain yet.
Check the book out if you ever get a chance (and read chapter 2 before 1, as this is really the underpinning for the rest of the book). Consider it a "cultural experience." 
Merry Christmas,
Shane
"The longer I live, the more I read, the more patiently I think, and the more anxiously I inquire, the less I seem to know." ~President John Adams | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 12/25/2004 6:08 AM (GMT -6) | |
My desire that in the end, good will triumph, and that justice will be done shall be fulfilled, satisfied; it may be my understanding of Scripture, whether correct or not, which may prove to be the problem, thus forming different hopes within me of how such will be expressed in the ultimate . . . again with the possibility of not having enough knowledge . . . No, not really, I am expressing the possibly that I may merely have a misunderstanding of true available knowledge from Scripture, this will be proven, again in the ultimate, in the end.
or Nevertheless, GOOD WILL TRIUMPH, JUSTICE WILL BE DONE . . .
I believe this means Pudding for all
Imagination projects unreal images out of the mind and seeks to attach reality to them. Faith creates nothing; it simply reckons upon that which is already there. | | Back to Top | | |
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