www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2180


quote:

---

• Chapter XXIV. Concerning what is Voluntary and what is Involuntary.


• Chapter XXV. Concerning what is in our own power, that is, concerning Free-will.


• Chapter XXIV. Concerning what is Voluntary and what is Involuntary.


• Chapter XXVII. Concerning the reason of our endowment with Free-will.


• Chapter XXVIII. Concerning what is not in our hands.


• Chapter XXIX. Concerning Providence.


• Chapter XXX. Concerning Prescience and Predestination.




---

quote:

---

12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a deep and terrifying darkness descended upon him. 13 Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know this for certain, that your offspring shall be aliens in a land that is not theirs, and shall be slaves there, and they shall be oppressed for four hundred years; 14 but I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 As for yourself, you shall go to your ancestors in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. 16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

---

• Abraham "received" his promise only IN faith. I'll say it that way because he really did recieve something, something more than just an idea or a receipt. He "saw" Christ's day and "rejoiced" in it.


• Abraham did NOT recieve something physical as a terminus of the promise. The promise points beyond.


• For Abraham's children -- who are identified by their faith, and not their genetic lineage (Gal.) -- they too "receive" in the same way as Abraham.


• Christ came at the right time. Lots, through all of human history lead up to His Day.


• Seems to me, and it seems Church history reflects too, that the Incarnation "is just that": something happening to human flesh and the the cosmos as a whole, in that right "day", in reality, changing both cosmos and humanity.


• Again, lots had to lead up to that "right day."


• Humanity seems to have had choices, and opportunities relative to its capacity to be in communion with God. (Were Noah's offspring to have responded certain ways, Egypt probably would have been unnecessary. But an "Abraham" would have still been necessary as a recipient of the Covenant: the "glowing coals" that transcended the law.)


• God STILL would have chosen the "weak things" and those "without" home or security excluding God himself to work through, and that way accomplish the incarnation.


• A similar question, paralleling this matter of slavery is the Theotokos. Mary just WAS GOING TO say "yes" to God. God knew that based on Her. That was her character. Everything from the Ark to the Burning Bush, to the Tabernacle had been pointing to Her: God was going to dwell with Men, and mankind was preparing as finally WAS prepared to respond with a "yes."


• Slavery needs to be seen in a bigger picture: "Out of Egypt will I call my Son."


• We need to repond IN GRATITUDE to those who went into Egypt, for our salvation.


• And don't let for our salvation be a stumbling block. Galatians still says plenty about how those who did the works can miss the inheritance. But all the history of slavation can bee seen as an icon of the ONE who IS salvation.

quote:

---

I don't think most evangelicals would be comfortable with seeing this passage as an "aetiological" tale. Some scholars see this as a conditional prophecy. This seems to be a stretch. I think GDG is more on track, and in fact, here the Open Theist and classical theist would differ very little. God was going to allow, or specifically steer if need be, events to incubate his people in Egypt while preparing to judge the Amorites and then "kill two birds with one stone." Freedom is always restricted in a million ways. God uses these restrictions to his advantage. The open view simply differs from Calvinism in saying that these restrictions are not exhaustive.

---

• Before any of them were born. . .Yes.


• Before Adam sinned. . .No.


• But while sin did not have to happen; God made provision for it. The incarnation would have happened even without sin. But as someone said, "There was a cross in the heart of God before the foundation of the world."


• After sin an "incubation" was necessary. A lot of ground needed 'making up.'


• According to the 'original' plan (without the fall), interestingly, and incubation period was necessary too. Adam and eve would have "become like God" (theosis) as they matured. (They grabbed control--making themselves 'gods'--instead of honoring God's plan.) The incarnation, logically then, would have come somewhere down the line.....which would be when they were more mature.


• I have no clue what else needs to be said from that, however.


• And I know better than to deveolop something just for the sake of doing so.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DLW

look Mephi, at a fundamental level, we don't know just how long the "incubation" period was s'posed to be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PotOnWheel

quote:

---

Originally posted by DLW

look Mephi, at a fundamental level, we don't know just how long the "incubation" period was s'posed to be.

---

Anyone,

To me, the interesting part is this: What was the incubation period accomplishing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DLW

To have been slaves, to have been downtrodden and to be delivered and given freedom is to make one s'posed to remember that what one has is from God and a gift that should not be taken for granted or viewed as one's own "property".

---

• http://i-cias.com/e.o/sukkoth.htm
  LexicOrient
  
  Sukkoth
  
  Jewish festival, where living in huts made out of boughs gives the festival its name.
  
  The feast is celebrated in memory of the Exodus from Egypt, and lasts for 7 days. It takes place from 15. Tishri, normally found in October. The reason for living in huts, is that this resembles the way the Jews were living during the 40 years of wandering on Sinai.
  The practice during this feast varies, but the most pious still live in huts during the festival, and even more Jews eat their meals here, while they sleep in their houses. These huts are erected in the five days between Yom Kippur and Sukkoth.
  
  Four species of plants are celebrated with Sukkoth, etrog (citron), lulav (date palm), myrtle, and willow. These are brought to the synagogue, and waved about during the ceremonies. On the last day of Sukkoth, the yearly cycle of reading the Torah starts in festive surroundings.



• http://www.wordreference.com/english/definition.asp?en=Sukkoth
  
  Sukkoth, Succoth ['s#650;k#601;#650;t, -k#601;#650;#952;, Hebrew: su#720;'k#596;t]
  noun an eight-day Jewish harvest festival beginning on Tishri 15, which commemorates the period when the Israelites lived in the wilderness
  Also called: Feast of Tabernacles
  [ETYMOLOGY: from Hebrew, literally: tabernacles]



• http://www.amfi.org/sukkoth.htm
  
  SUCCOTH: The Feast of Tabernacles
  
  (long article)



• 
  
  http://www.midrash.org/halakha/sukkoth.html
  
  Sukkoth
  
  On the fifteenth day of this seventh month, five days after Yom Kippur comes the Festival of Sukkoth, during which we are commanded to dwell in booths and to take the Four Species (including the Lulab and Ethrogh).
  Qiddush on the first night (and second too, for those who live outside the Land of Israel) requires Layla Wadday, – i.e. it must be made after the stars come out.
  
  It is made in the Sukkah and – on the first night – includes the Berakha (blessing) of Leesheb Bassukkah followed by Sheheheyanu. On the second night, the Berakha of Leesheb Bassukkah is recited last.
  
  The Berakha of Leesheb Bassukkah is recited standing during the Qiddush at night and one only sits after its completion. During the day, however, it is recited while seated.
  
  According to the Sepharadim, this Berakha should only be pronounced if one has the intention of eating bread, however, if one simply wishes to eat a piece of cake or something similar, it should not be recited.
  
  A special chair should be placed in the Sukkah for the seven Ushpizin (holy guests) who visit, one each night, over the seven nights of the holiday. A copy of the book Qeri-eh Mo'ed, a Tanakh or a Zohar should be placed on it and a fine piece of cloth should be draped over both the chair and the book. It is a fine Minhagh to send one meal every night to a poor person, in honor of the Ushpizin of that particular night.
  
  The seven Ushpizin are represented in the Lulab and Ethrogh, as follows: the Myrtle (of which we use three stems) represents our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Willow (of which we use two) represents Moses and Aaron. The Lulab itself represents Joseph and the Ethrogh is likened to King David.
  
  The Midrash explains that these four items of which the Lulab and Ethrogh are comprised, represent four types of people who are all joined together in rejoicing before the Creator.
  
  
  
  The Ethrogh – is a man who is learned in Torah (symbolized by its good taste) and the good smell is the good deeds which he performs.
  The Lulab – a learned man, but without good deeds.
  The Hadas (myrtle) – a man of good deeds (as in its good smell), but not learned.
  The 'Araboth (willow) – possessing neither smell nor taste, is a man of neither good deeds nor learning.
  
  
  When these four types of people are bound together with love and unity – and all feelings of jealousy and hatred banished – their prayers are accepted.
  
  There are certain differences between Sepharadim and Ashkenazim in the manner in which the Lulab and Ethrogh are used.
  
  The waving of the Lulab by Sepharadim is done by moving it, three times, to and from ones chest (as opposed to shaking it in front of one). The waving is done is this order: South, North, East, Up, Down and West.
  
  The order for Ashkenazim is different and, in addition, Ashkenazim face forward (East) at all times and change the direction in which the Lulab is pointing. Sepharadim physically turn around, so that the Lulab is always facing forward.
  
  On the first Shabbath of Sukkoth, Ashkenazim read the Meghillah of Qoheleth, prior to the reading of the Torah. Sepharadim do not have this Minhagh.
  
  The last night of Sukkoth is Leil Hosha'na Rabba. The period which commenced on Rosh Hodesh Elul, of Selihoth and supplications for forgiveness, reaches its end on this day with a final scaling of our judgement. On this night the men stay up reading the entire book of Debarim (Deuteronomy) and (time-permitting) various other prescribed readings.
  
  -----------------------------------
  Taken from the writings of Hakham Ya'aqob Menashe.