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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
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MetroIceberg
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 12/21/2004 6:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Except for unusual cases (Sodom and Gamorah, the Great Flood, etc.(ie. judgements), is there any evidence that God actively takes the lives of his Creations? Does God "kill" people? | | Back to Top | | |
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MetroIceberg
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 12/21/2004 6:48 AM (GMT -6) | | | Again, this was a specific judgement. I mean, does God ordain for every man, woman, and child the time and manner in which they die? God does act directly, as in the cases I have given, and the one that you have cited. But does this apply across the board to all humanity? | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 12/22/2004 3:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Violin for God
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Ecc 3:1 There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven--
Ecc 3:2 A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
Ecc 3:3 A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up.
Just wanted to point one thing out... have you looked at the other translations of the Bible? I see you used the NASB which has the word "appointed"... no other translation of the Bible has that word.
That being said, is there any conclusive research that states that all these events will happen in our lives at specific times or are these verses simply saying, "expect these things to happen in the world within your lifetime at some point in time."?
People usually complain about the "literal" translations I use, such as the concordant and Young's, so I just randomly chose one others use. I usually just copy it off the Blue Letter Bible website
www.blueletterbible.org/
and the concordance on the site defines the Hebrew word z@man (which is translated by the phrase in question) as...
quote:
1) a set time, appointed time, time
So, in reality, the NASB translates it more literally then the other translations which do not carry the idea of a set or appointed time for everything listed.
quote:
JEE-That would be no different than when Hebrews says, "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after that the judgment," with which of course I agree. The fact of that we all die does not mean that every case in which we die is specifically something God did.
The one obvious difference between Ecc. and Hebrews is that Ecc. directly sets out that there is an appointed TIME or season for everything listed, whereas Hebrews does not set the time, unless you interpret the Hebrews passage as refering to the life of the priest according to the law of manslaughter, but that would be another discussion thread.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 12/22/2004 7:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
As Ecclesiastes says "there is a time" (singular) it cannot be meant as anything more than a general statement. Not everybody dances. Not everybody mourns. Not everbody kills.
John
John-
The Hebrew word z@man is only found 4 times in the Old Testament, Neh. 2:6, Ester 9:27 and 31, and in Eccl. Each time it clearly is used as an appointed time or set time, as Strong's defines.
quote:
Not everybody dances. Not everybody mourns. Not everbody kills.
Even though these statements do not prove appointed events or the lack there of, I can't help but to comment on them. Everyone dances, or rejoices in their own way, everyone mourns their own way, even if they do not show it, and everyone commits murder in their heart, according to Jesus' teachings, when they think evil thoughts toward their brother.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 12/22/2004 1:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Lock,
quote:
Originally posted by lock
People usually complain about the "literal" translations I use, such as the concordant and Young's, so I just randomly chose one others use. I usually just copy it off the Blue Letter Bible website
www.blueletterbible.org/
and the concordance on the site defines the Hebrew word z@man (which is translated by the phrase in question) as...
quote:
1) a set time, appointed time, time
Here's what Strong's states in the computer program I have:
OT:2165 zeman (zem-awn'); from OT:2163; an appointed occasion:
KJV - season, time.
quote:
So, in reality, the NASB translates it more literally then the other translations which do not carry the idea of a set or appointed time for everything listed.
Yes, the NASB was intended to be a literal translation... (literal translation does not mean better or more reliable translation... it just conveys the translator's approach) however, as I've studied translation theory a bit more closely within the past year (did a translation project between English and German), here's the issue I have with most Bible translations:
they do not include translators' notes. The non-literal translations, such as NIV, KJV, and perhaps the RJV, do not need translator's footnotes as much (though in questionable or difficult to translate areas, IMHO they should include literal translations in the footnotes) The problem with literal translations is that they do not convey the essence of the originals, meaning the slight inflections and nuances from the original. (That is a reason we should look at different translations and good commentaries before coming to an absolute conclusion about a passage...even if the translation does not agree with our theological perspective.)
That was the reason I asked if you looked at the other translations. The NASB uses a word that on the surface supports your point, but my question is, should we place our bets on that translation alone?
I did more research just now on that passage, and it seems that Ecc 3:1 seems to convey more of an "appointed time period", not a simple "point in time". That's why I asked the question:
quote:
is there any conclusive research that states that all these events will happen in our lives at specific times or are these verses simply saying, "expect these things to happen in the world within your lifetime at some point in time."?
My finding is: no, there is no conclusive evidence that supports the notion that this passage (ecc. 3:1) is refering to specific points in time... rather to time periods or seasons.
Here are the commentaries I've looked at: Kiel and Delitzsch; Jamieson, Fausset and Brown; Adam Clarke's; Matthew Henry's. Some believe these seasons have fixed points (ie birth and death) others don't.
"Reality is harsh to the feet of shadows." - C.S.Lewis, The Great Divorce | | Back to Top | | |
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