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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/5/2005 4:55 AM (GMT -6) |   | Question: Did Numbers 16 ACTUALLY HAPPEN as historical events?
Numbers 16
1 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites-Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth-became insolent [a] 2 and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council. 3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, "You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the LORD's assembly?"
4 When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. 5 Then he said to Korah and all his followers: "In the morning the LORD will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him. 6 You, Korah, and all your followers are to do this: Take censers 7 and tomorrow put fire and incense in them before the LORD . The man the LORD chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!"
8 Moses also said to Korah, "Now listen, you Levites! 9 Isn't it enough for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the Israelite community and brought you near himself to do the work at the LORD's tabernacle and to stand before the community and minister to them? 10 He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too. 11 It is against the LORD that you and all your followers have banded together. Who is Aaron that you should grumble against him?"
12 Then Moses summoned Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab. But they said, "We will not come! 13 Isn't it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the desert? And now you also want to lord it over us? 14 Moreover, you haven't brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Will you gouge out the eyes of these men? No, we will not come!"
15 Then Moses became very angry and said to the LORD , "Do not accept their offering. I have not taken so much as a donkey from them, nor have I wronged any of them."
16 Moses said to Korah, "You and all your followers are to appear before the LORD tomorrow-you and they and Aaron. 17 Each man is to take his censer and put incense in it-250 censers in all-and present it before the LORD . You and Aaron are to present your censers also." 18 So each man took his censer, put fire and incense in it, and stood with Moses and Aaron at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 19 When Korah had gathered all his followers in opposition to them at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, the glory of the LORD appeared to the entire assembly. 20 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 21 "Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once."
22 But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, "O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?"
23 Then the LORD said to Moses, 24 "Say to the assembly, 'Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.' "
25 Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He warned the assembly, "Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins." 27 So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.
28 Then Moses said, "This is how you will know that the LORD has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: 29 If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30 But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, [c] then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, "The earth is going to swallow us too!"
35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.
36 The LORD said to Moses, 37 "Tell Eleazar son of Aaron, the priest, to take the censers out of the smoldering remains and scatter the coals some distance away, for the censers are holy- 38 the censers of the men who sinned at the cost of their lives. Hammer the censers into sheets to overlay the altar, for they were presented before the LORD and have become holy. Let them be a sign to the Israelites."
39 So Eleazar the priest collected the bronze censers brought by those who had been burned up, and he had them hammered out to overlay the altar, 40 as the LORD directed him through Moses. This was to remind the Israelites that no one except a descendant of Aaron should come to burn incense before the LORD , or he would become like Korah and his followers.
41 The next day the whole Israelite community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. "You have killed the LORD's people," they said.
42 But when the assembly gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron and turned toward the Tent of Meeting, suddenly the cloud covered it and the glory of the LORD appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron went to the front of the Tent of Meeting, 44 and the LORD said to Moses, 45 "Get away from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once." And they fell facedown.
46 Then Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer and put incense in it, along with fire from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the LORD ; the plague has started." 47 So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. 48 He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped. 49 But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah. 50 Then Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, for the plague had stopped.
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Question Restatement: Do you believe this REALLY happened at stated? Do you believe...
That God was so angry that he was going to wipe out the entire assembly...and Moses and Aaron had to calm Him down to localize the destruction to only those responsible?
That God actually opened up the earth and swallowed Korah and the whole family...and closed it back up?
That God couldn't take the people's grumbling...and set the plague out...and MOSES had to try to stem the loss of life...lest God kill the entire assembly?
Do y'all believe this? Seriously. I want to know. Was God powerful enough to really do this?
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 1/23/2005 9:41 AM (GMT -6) | | interesting question, as to the title of the thread, I really don't have a clue, maybe yes, maybe no.
[quote]Do y'all believe this? Seriously. I want to know. Was God powerful enough to really do this?
You're asking me if I think that the God who created the whole world was powerful enough to cause a little split in the earth and close it back up???? | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 2/8/2005 5:54 AM (GMT -6) | | | Was reading a book review of Kitchen's book on the reliability of the old testament, and he seems to have a more naturalistic interpretation of the events in this passage. | | Back to Top | | |
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 2/9/2005 10:35 AM (GMT -6) | | | I'm finishing a book called "Who Wrote the Bible" by Richard E. Friedman.
According to the "Documentary Hypothesis", much of the OT is written by four different authors (or groups) which are identified as J, E, D and P. The account in Numbers 16 is said to be a combination of two separate accounts. The first is from either J or E. (I don't remember which. J and E were combined after the fall of the Northern Kingdom into JE.) It deals with Dathan, Abiram, and On and ends up with the rebels being consumed with fire (v. 35)
The second account is from the source known as P. The P story deals with "Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi" (P is a polemic against JE and is primarily concerned with establishing the Aaronid priesthood as the sole legitimate priesthood as opposed to the Levite priests) and ends with Korah as his men being swallowed in the earth.
P and JE (and D) were then combined by the Redactor (Ezra?), post-exile. The Redactor wanted to keep everything, but put it in a unified form. Hence, the combination of the story of Dathan, Abiram, and On with the story of Korah.
Very interesting read.
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bryan mccarthy
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 2/12/2005 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey all,
Just for trivia purposes, for those who don't know, "J" stands for Jehovah, "E" stands for Elohim, "D" stands for Deuteronomic, and "P" stands for "Priestly."
Hey, Matt
Where does that Nietzsche quote come from? I like it a ton. BTW, it works coincidentally well as a summary statement to your last post on this thread. Yeah?
Bryan | | Back to Top | | |
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MattBrown
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 74
| Posted 2/13/2005 10:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Bryan,
I think I found the quote while doing some random net reading on GK Chesterton a few weeks ago. No idea the context but I really like it.
I personally relate to it as pointing out the dangers of becoming self-righteous and legalistic in our misguided zeal for the Lord. If you've read Boyd's Repenting of Religion it seems to fit right in.
Matt
Be careful, lest in fighting the dragon you become the dragon. - Nietzsche | | Back to Top | | |
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AtTheWell
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 133
| Posted 2/22/2005 11:23 AM (GMT -6) | |
Meph said:
Question Restatement: Do you believe this REALLY happened at stated? Do you believe...
That God was so angry that he was going to wipe out the entire assembly...and Moses and Aaron had to calm Him down to localize the destruction to only those responsible?
That God actually opened up the earth and swallowed Korah and the whole family...and closed it back up?
That God couldn't take the people's grumbling...and set the plague out...and MOSES had to try to stem the loss of life...lest God kill the entire assembly?
Do y'all believe this? Seriously. I want to know. Was God powerful enough to really do this?
Yes, I do believe God is powerful enough-- my struggle, not a new one I know, is with the reconciliation of this with the NT. I know that is way too huge a topic, and probably not even close to what you were asking here, but can you point me in the right direction on this. I always end up either saying "HUH????" when I read something like this, or I say "I just don't really have the rest of the story from God's perspective because I'm way too limited in my mindset, blah, blah, blah...." Really, I feel like I end up making an excuse for God's behavior-- how ridiculous is that!? Bad theology for sure! Am I just supposed to say- Well that was under the old covenant; this is the new covenant-- now let's hope things don't change again. ??????
Don't get me wrong my faith is in Christ as the revelation of the Father-- I just don't GET it in my head when I am faced with some verses like this, and I'm WAY too limited on time to weed through the tons of past posts that might deal with it. Any help in pointing me in the right direction is much appreciated.
Also interesting to me, a little on the side, What were the repercussions the rest of the earth endured because of the splitting of the earth wide enough to swallow up these people???? Tsunami time somewhere else???? Or did God prevent that from affecting anyone else??? Just a curiosity........
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 2/22/2005 12:46 PM (GMT -6) | |
AtTheWell said...I don't think God is inconsistent... I think my thinking is. I see the actions of Christ and don't see any "wrath of God" stuff-- I should have been more precise in my question and not just thrown out the entire NT as my point of reference. I see your point. Thanks.
Christ, just like John the Baptist and all the other biblical prophets in the Old Testament, energetically warned people to flee from the wrath to come. In Revelation, we see Christ destroying all his enemies in Armageddon. Even if taken as a metaphor, the basic meaning behind this cannot be that Jesus is somehow the ultimate Mr. Nice Guy.
Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Blessings in Christ,
John
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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AtTheWell
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 133
| Posted 2/22/2005 3:00 PM (GMT -6) | |
JEE said...
AtTheWell said...I don't think God is inconsistent... I think my thinking is. I see the actions of Christ and don't see any "wrath of God" stuff-- I should have been more precise in my question and not just thrown out the entire NT as my point of reference. I see your point. Thanks.
Christ, just like John the Baptist and all the other biblical prophets in the Old Testament, energetically warned people to flee from the wrath to come. In Revelation, we see Christ destroying all his enemies in Armageddon. Even if taken as a metaphor, the basic meaning behind this cannot be that Jesus is somehow the ultimate Mr. Nice Guy.
Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Blessings in Christ,
John
JEE,
I completely understand what you are saying here, and it is here, in trying to seek out our ALL LOVING God I get stuck in, "HUH? Well, I guess I just can't see it from God's perspective." "That's because my mind is finite, etc...." And I guess what I'm asking is.... Is that it? Do I stay there and just decide that these are things that won't really make sense to me until I die? Is that ok theology to walk with, and fully manifest with? Is that faith?
My understanding is not just Mr. Nice Guy, either-- my understanding is, the PRESENCE of Christ HIMSELF, I mean actually seeing God's very being seated on the thrown, by the very nature (ultimate GOODNESS, TRUTH, LOVE...) causes the inability to stand-- like the wrath is a natural (or supernatural) consequence-- not necessarily a tool wielded in anger. Not the same idea (I say this with the assumption that it is because of my own lack of understanding), I get from the verses Meph quoted. Some OT revelations of God seem different to me than the revelation of God in Christ. ( Key words: SEEM... to me.) So I'm looking for a good source, or writing, or whatever that can deal with the reality of my disjointed thinking. I mean I may really be missing the obvious here, so I'm thinking SOMEBODY can point it out, and I'm sure already has.... 
Thanks for your time!
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