 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > The whole kit and caboodle | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/6/2005 8:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | Bottom line. Where are we going? Can love/Christ be perverted?
Let us read:
The Mystic Christ reveals the life and teachings of Jesus to be an ancient tale of mystic union, salvation, and enlightenment. It is the careful uncovering of a lost treasure of immeasurable value, long buried in the suffocating darkness of conventional orthodoxy on one side, and blind fundamentalist extremism on the other. From the viewpoint of the world’s mystical religious traditions, the brilliant light of Jesus’ way is revealed as a penetrating radical non-duality unifying all people and all of life. The Master’s path to this all-embracing unity is the spiritual practice of pure selfless love. Love God intensely, love our neighbor as our own Self, bless those that curse us, and pray for those that mistreat us. Love has been lost, becoming nothing more than a word in the dictionary and, yet, it remains the foundation of Jesus’ message.
The Mystic Christ is also a compelling story of the ego, the personification of ignorance, and how it has distorted and subverted the sublime sayings of Jesus, twisting reality into unreality and light into darkness. The ego is the Antichrist in this ancient drama that has gripped every culture for all time in its talons of self-centered perception. The ego is anti-love.
Adam and Eve were not the first people, the nature of man is good, scripture is not infallible, Jesus is one of the ways, all religions are paths to God, reincarnation is in the Bible, the resurrection as a personal spiritual awakening, and the error of eternal damnation are all carefully and lovingly revealed in the life and sayings of Jesus.
The Mystic Christ is thoroughly punctuated with quotes from masters of the mystical traditions such as Buddha, Krishna , and Lao Tzu as well as the Gnostic gospels. But, most importantly, over 230 scriptural references from the Old and New Testament are used to illustrate the harmony that exists between the life and teachings of Jesus and the world’s great religions.
…
This book is written for Christians who harbor a feeling of concern sensing that there is more to salvation than simply mouthing the words, “I believe in Jesus.” This book is written for anyone who is willing to embrace the possibility that salvation is a deep and fundamental change that must take place at the very root of the human psyche. This book is written for all seekers who see that Christ was a revolutionary and that a great civil war must be fought on the battlefield of our own mind. This book is written for anyone who has begun to understand that salvation must happen here and now as we labor to bring each moment into the fullness of God’s infinite love.
Sound familiar?
Welcome to the world of the author:
Ethan Walker III
Walker was a practicing counter-
culture hippie in 1967 at the age
of 18 when he began to explore eastern
philosophy and the European mystery
schools. He spent two years in the
Rosicrucian Order followed by four years
under the tutelage of Mark Prophet, the
founder of The Summit Lighthouse. He
studied, lived and worked at that organization
as a renunciate. After the death
of Mr. Prophet, Walker had an intense
spiritual experience while studying the
teachings of Ramana Maharshi. This
prompted him to dedicate himself to the
philosophy of advaita or non-duality and
the practice of atma vichara or meditation
on the formless Self. This culminated
in a deep understanding of the nature of
the ego. A strong desire to be permanently
rid of the ego arose within him.
Shortly thereafter, Walker met his guru,
Mata Amritanandamayi or Ammachi, the
hugging saint, in 1988.
Ammachi advised that practicing non-duality
alone is dry, like eating stones. She
directed him to practice the devotional
path. She explained that non-duality is
the goal and devotion is the means.
Walker’s devotional practices began with
the Divine Mother as the point of concentration.
At this stage he saw her as a
benign, loving and compassionate Mother
Mary figure. This continued for several
years until he began to focus on the Divine
Mother in the form of the goddess
Kali who wields the compassionate sword
of liberation. As his devotional meditations
continued, he developed a close
relationship with and absorption in
Mother Kali. After several years of this,
he began to see the Divine Mother in everyone
and everything. All along this journey,
Walker was guided by Ammachi.
Throughout this 35-year spiritual odyssey,
Walker has also maintained a deep interest
in Buddhism with particular fondness
for the Zen master Suzuki Roshi and the
Tibetan tradition. Walker is greatly influenced
by the Indian saints Ramakrishna
and Nisargadatta Maharaj. Later in his
practice, he pursued the study of Jesus,
his life and teachings, and experienced
deep devotion to the Master. Inspired by
the similarity between Jesus’ life and
teachings and the path of the eastern
masters, Walker spent five years researching
and writing The Mystic Christ.
Walker is the author of two other books.
Soft Moon Shining is a collection of 230
devotional poems and 60 illustrations that
revolve around his relationship with the
Divine Mother. Finding God’s Love is a
how-to book exploring the theory and
practice of the path of love and devotion.
These books and The Mystic Christ can
be explored in greater detail at
www.devipress.com.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love's presence transcends grief
Bringing a spiritual perspective to daily life My son called me to his room several weeks ago. "Wait," he said. After a few minutes, I saw him shudder involuntarily. Then he looked at me and said, "That's what I wanted you to see." It had been going on for months, and growing more frequent. "Would you like me to pray for you?" I asked, and he said, "Yes."
We spoke for a few moments more, and then I went to my room and listened quietly for Love's direction about how to pray. I've learned from deep study of the Bible, and a corresponding commitment to put the Bible's teaching into daily practice, that what appear to be physical conditions actually have a mental cause. So I was confident that prayer would reveal a spiritual correction that would bring healing.
~Christian Science
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0216/p18s01-hfcs.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Corinthians 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.Post Edited (Selah) : 3/6/2005 5:58:13 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/6/2005 9:06 AM (GMT -6) | | MephEternal said...
My thoughts:
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, right? As wacky as some people might want to think that these ideas sounds on paper, couldn't we see that if one TRULY LIVED like this, they'd probably be more "Christ-like" than many of us so-called "evangelical" Christians? To be sure, many of the thoughts about human beings and existence would need to be challenged...but if someone really wanted to live out that "love" part, I sure wouldn't stop them.
If all truth is God's truth...AND if God is love (regardless of where else it's said)...
I don't see any problem whatsoever with the belief that Ultimate Reality is about Love. None.
I'd hope we'd concentrate our attention on living in love...without concerning ourselves with how different people articulate their theology of living in love. Perhaps if we lived in love more, then we could get people like this to believe our propositional truths about the Resurrected Christ!
[img]/emoticons/devil.gif[/img]
Ok. How is that different than me joining eckankar, singing Hu all the live long day, and rejecting Christ? Are you saying that my personal relationship WITH Christ is worthless?
...
PS The LDS church teaches that “the Bible is true as far as it is translated correctly” What implications do you suppose that has for LDS believers?
1 Corinthians 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. | | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/6/2005 10:10 AM (GMT -6) | | MephEternal said...
Moreover...as far as not having "truth"
It's my personal conviction that if people of ANY religion were to exhibit Christ-like, agape-type love, it would not only be just plain good in and of itself, but that it would be one of the BEST "apologetic" tools on hand for talking about the Gospel. If these people already believe in Ultimate Reality as love (which hopefully, the Christian does as well), one can talk about the HISTORICAL WORK of Christ that demonstrates and effects just this love. How the Incarnation, Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ all reveal a TRINITARIAN work of love for all sentient beings.
Well, if you know that other stuff about me, you REALLY should know that I'm not arguing against the above statement - AT ALL. In fact, you might even venture to continue that statement by including the PURPOSE of sharing the Gospel, the Christ Work and all that - to make way for the possibility of relationship with HIM. It's there that you would find distinctions between Jesus being THE way/THE truth/The Suffering Savior/Life AND LOVE for one person and a murky/gray area called LOVE for another... or, rather, MANY OTHERS.
Meph Eon said...
Heh. I bet if a Oneness believer and a Trinitarian believer were to start a conversation with one another ASSUMING 1) God is love and 2)they should embody God's love with one another...that we'd get a LOT farther than we usually do. Plus I believe that the trinitarian person would be on a LOT firmer ground as far as postulating how God IS love within Godself (whether one chooses the psychological or social models of the Trinity). Just let ME try it. Heh.
Well, first of all double HEH back  . Second, I didn't know we were trying to get further by any means... I thought we were trying to KNOW Christ...
futher in what? reconstructing "evangelical labels?" the hottest new doctrine?
ya lost me...
1 Corinthians 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.Post Edited (Selah) : 3/6/2005 9:41:38 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/6/2005 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | ok Meph. start here:
The Distinct Love of God in Jesus Christ: If Jesus is TRUTH and Jesus is LOVE then perhaps Jesus’ LOVE is the only TRUE LOVE.
Moreover, the love of Christ is distinct because of Calvary - He died to demonstrate His love. Through that single act he showed us who he is AND how much we are worth! There is no other love, no secondary love, no imitation of love, no understanding of love in all history that compares to the love of the Savior. That, mephi, is a distinct love.
We receive this (true and distinct) love apparently through believing and knowing (a personal understanding & entering into an IN CHRIST relationship) as we've seen in John 17.
What we do with that love - replicating calvary out in the world - is the transforming work of the Kingdom.
I think.
In Him,
selah
Ever hear the saying "you don't counterfeit a three dollar bill, but you DO counterfeit a 20!" That's the way I'm seeing this gray area of pseudo love that we don't get from the SOURCE of love Himself. I see it as counterfeit love/a slightly satisfactory love/ but not the fullness of definitive love. Also, please understand that I'm not saying all love that doesn't come from "Christians" is this pseudo love. I am saying that all love that doesn't come from "Christ" is this pseudo love. And that the enemy (if there is one) would definitly LOVE to use that skewed love for his own purposes.... as an angel of light perhaps?
1 Corinthians 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.Post Edited (Selah) : 3/6/2005 12:55:05 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/6/2005 12:57 PM (GMT -6) | | applicable song break:
Jesus -
You are beautiful beyond description
Too marvelous for words
Too wonderful for comprehension
Like nothing ever seen or heard
Who can grasp Your infinite wisdom
Who can fathom the depths of Your love
You are BEAUTIFULl beyond description
Majesty, enthroned above
And I stand, I stand in awe of You
I stand, I stand in awe of You
Holy God to whom all praise is due
I stand in awe of You
Yes, I stand in awe of You
I stand in awe of You
la la lalalala la la...
1 Corinthians 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/6/2005 2:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Hmmm...
Selah:
Moreover, the love of Christ is distinct because of Calvary - He died to demonstrate His love. Through that single act he showed us who he is AND how much we are worth! There is no other love, no secondary love, no imitation of love, no understanding of love in all history that compares to the love of the Savior. That, mephi, is a distinct love.
If you are referring to the unique demonstration of love in the ChristWork, I cannot help but agree. There is no other being that embodies and demonstrates the immense depth and breadth of love like God. However, if we are talking about what loving actions and dispositions are, then we talking about something other than demonstration of love.
Some people would say that God is love, in the sense that that God is the "presence" implicit in EVERY genuine loving action and disposition that synergistically empowers and motivates creaturely love.
How one describes God's relationship to love will be VERY important to this discussion.
**********************
Selah:
We receive this (true and distinct) love apparently through believing and knowing (a personal understanding & entering into an IN CHRIST relationship) as we've seen in John 17.
What we do with that love - replicating calvary out in the world - is the transforming work of the Kingdom.
Again, we have to describe God's relationship to "love" before we can really get somewhere with this.
************************
Selah:
Ever hear the saying "you don't counterfeit a three dollar bill, but you DO counterfeit a 20!" That's the way I'm seeing this gray area of pseudo love that we don't get from the SOURCE of love Himself. I see it as counterfeit love/a slightly satisfactory love/ but not the fullness of definitive love. Also, please understand that I'm not saying all love that doesn't come from "Christians" is this pseudo love. I am saying that all love that doesn't come from "Christ" is this pseudo love. And that the enemy (if there is one) would definitly LOVE to use that skewed love for his own purposes.... as an angel of light perhaps?
Hmmm...This is reminding me of my ideas on some stuff I read in "Works of Love." It seemed like to me that SK seemed to EQUATE God and love such that love had the incomprehensibility of God. (Probably based on the idea "God is love" Therefore, love as such could ONLY be Christianly understood through it's works. Moreover, Christian "love" was eternal necessarily because GOD is eternal. Love is "in" and "of" the ineffable God which makes love inextricable from God. Because of this, it is taken, one cannot talk about loving another person truly WITHOUT discussing God somewhere in that relation...for God IS love. Morevoer, a CHRISTIAN cannot talk about God without talking about Christ. Do the math.
I always wondered though...would SKs's ideas fit an inclusivist framework? I'm not being funny. What I meant was this: Would SK think of this whole thing in terms of the NEED to know Christ as an understood cognitive representation? or...Would he say that people could exhibit true love embodied by the ineffable God even though they don't understand it as such?
This is a huge deal.
If one takes the more inclusivistic view of things, one could say that people CAN partake in the love of God TRULY, though INCOMPLETELY. Think about it. What if you had a person who believed in a person God of love that flowed in ALL loving acts such that any genuinely heartfelt loving disposition or action was participatory in God's work in the world...BUT...this person wasn't a Christian. Would we say that this person is NOT participating in love BECAUSE they don't have a cognitive representation of Jesus of Nazareth as God and Savior? If so, on what basis?
See what I'm asking?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
| | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/6/2005 4:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Hmmm. I'm in a hurry, Lets see what I can do real quick!
meph: If you are referring to the unique demonstration of love in the ChristWork, I cannot help but agree. There is no other being that embodies and demonstrates the immense depth and breadth of love like God.
selah: This IS what I'm referring to. And, I'm saying it's THAT kind of love that can flow in us! I'm saying that God's OWN love is the transforming kind of love of John 17.
IF WE BELIEVE In Him, that very same love flows through us to the world... so much so that it will cause people to BELIEVE in Christ. That's what I'm saying. That is "love at cost to self" love. That is the love that loves enemies. etc.
Motive for love, however, can pervert love to the extent that I wouldn't even call it love. Can you hear that? For example, if I wanted to join a "church" in order to feel better about who I am...to me, that's not love. If I am fully aware of and completely reject Christ to join a cooler/easier religion...even if I bring the snacks and bond with everyone there "in love" ...to me, that's not love. If I seek the euphoric FEELING that comes from love and DO loving acts to get that feeling...rather than loving in and of itself...to me...that's not the Christ-love I'm talking about either. Does this make sense (btw. yes! SK does a MUCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH better job of talking about this than I could ever hope to!)
Anyway, All of those these things APPEAR LOVING from the outside...
meph: If one takes the more inclusivistic view of things, one could say that people CAN partake in the love of God TRULY, though INCOMPLETELY. Think about it. What if you had a person who believed in a person God of love that flowed in ALL loving acts such that any genuinely heartfelt loving disposition or action was participatory in God's work in the world...BUT...this person wasn't a Christian.
selah: I thought i addressed this somewhere, but for the record: I DO BELIEVE that people can partake in the love of God TRULY though INCOMPLETELY and I DO NOT THINK THAT PERSON HAS to have a cognitive representation of Christ.
I do NOT believe this is usually the case when people have KNOWINGLY denied Christ however.
Oh, and I was meaning to tell you that I think God knew all about psychology when he created us.
I believe he knows how to work with/woo/hound people...even if they have a DSM label. He's smart like that.
The most important part of what I'm trying to say is this: If I were the enemy of TRUE LOVE, my BEST tactic would be to deceive as many as possible through the means of counterfeit/feel good/self satisfying pseudo Love. Even to the point of Lying or twisting the truth of scripture (apparently this happened to Jesus after his fast) ;-) Put that together with denying the consequences of sin... You have yourself a very good battle plan! 
I know your view doesn't deny consequence... so I'm not referring to your view there...some of the other views do, however.
wow. my computer is freezing up - I gotta go finish my billion word paper and take a nap!
peace and true love,
selah!
1 Corinthians 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.Post Edited (Selah) : 3/6/2005 4:17:00 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/7/2005 7:37 AM (GMT -6) | | ~~~~Ending in song~~~~
Fred Hammond on Christ's Love:
Your Love is
Beyond what I can think
You go beyond my hopes and highest expectations
The love You've shown on Calvary
Forever, always
Pursuing me
Relentlessly
I'm crying please
[Chorus]
Open up the heavens (Open up the heavens)
Let me feel Your shower (Let me feel Your shower)
The shower of Your presence
Every moment of each hour
Lord here's my hand (Lord here's my hand)
Cover me and (Cover me and)
Take me beyond
What I understand
Your love is greater than my thoughts-deeper, higher
Brighter than my hopes-burns like fire
Lighting up my soul-You inspire
Your love is always
Always moving me to tears-overflowing
Just like a waterfall-keeps on going
The wonderful thing about Your love-keeps me knowing
It's renewing and refreshing (That's what Your love is)
Vital and life-giving (That's what Your love is)
Comforting and blessing (That's what Your love, that’s what Your love, that’s what Your love)
A place where I can run to (That's what Your love is)
A tower and a shelter (That's what Your love is)
Forgiving us forever (That's what Your love, that’s what Your love)
That's what Your love is, Your love is
Renewing and refreshing
Vital and life-giving
Comforting and blessing
That's what Your love is
A place where I can run to
A tower and a shelter
Forgiving us forever
That's what I'm talking 'bout
Whenever I feel Your love on me
The tears begin to flow
I let myself go
And then I know
Your love is here, Your love, oh Lord
Whenever I feel Your warm embrace
Like the warm sun on my face
Your presence in this place
It lets me know Your love is here, Your love
1 Corinthians 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 6:48 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|