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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/13/2003 5:35 PM (GMT -6) |   | Appreciate your thoughts Laika. I have often time wrestled with the apparent antimony between the "count the cost" dimension of Jesus' message and the "accepted as is" dimension of Jesus' message. But I've come to the conclusion that this is only an APPARENT antimony.
The call to DIE to self, to forsake all for the sake of the Kingdom, to pick up the cross and follow Jesus, etc.... is the call to LET GO of non-life for the sake of life. Jesus issues us an all-or-nothing command FOR OUR OWN GOOD. We MISS OUT on life to the extent that we cling to the old self, the pursuit of life here and now as the end all of things, etc.... What empowers us and motives us to do this is the good news of God's love for us AS WE ARE. Because we ARE accepted, and made new creations in Christ Jesus, we are commanded to BE new creations by dying to the old creation.
The call to "count the cost" is a call to both consider WHAT MUST BE SOLD to buy the pearl of great price, but also WHAT IS GAINED by selling all. If we die WE SHALL LIVE. To count the cost is to acknowledge the death, but to do so in light of the LIFE we shall gain.
As we grow in discipleship, we grow in our awareness of the COST, but even more in our appreciation of the GAIN.
Once we die, the burden is easy and the yoke is light. The hardship comes from hang'n on to the old. Then it feels difficult and heavy.
At least, that's my experience.
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 10/13/2003 6:20 PM (GMT -6) | | You raised 3 non-negotiable things that define the life of a disciple--radical obedience, daily death to self, and working in the ministry of reconciliation.
The way I think about it, working in the ministry of reconciliation (in ALL forms) is a non-negotiable that flows OUT of living in radical obediance to God and daily death to self (which I would actually say is a MINUTE to minute, second to second, death to self, at least for me...and I mess it up all the time). Pursuing reconciliation (right-relatedness and justice in all relationships between all people) is a direct reflecion of our radical obedience to God and constant death to self.
I guess one example I can think of is something I encounter every day. When I walk into a patient's room at the ER and they reek of alcohol or are trippin on their drug of choice, my first thoughts/feelings (which happen in 1/3000 of a second, or whatever Greg says it is) are absolute condemnation, anger, spite, JUDGMENT...NOT love. Radical obedience, in this case, has to start with discipleship of my MIND (tying Dwayne's sermon in with Greg's from this week). It involves figuring out what really happens in that 1/3000 of a second, and then working on changing it. Do I WANT to do this? Not usually. Really. I'd rather stand in judgment of them, because I like being right. And it's not like I'm way off in my assessment or anything--the decisions made by the patient are stupid and destructive. Fine. But focusing on only those things makes it impossible for me to love them. So guess what? You have to die to self, and for me in this case it's dying to the way I love to stand in judgment. It's not my job. And ONLY then can reconciliation happen, in this case, between me and that patient.
Reconciliation is small-scale (like me with my patient) and BROAD. It needs to happen between people of different racial and ethnic groups (here and in every other country of the world too). It needs to happen between the rich and poor. In families. At work. Environmentally. Between the U.S. and other countries. In churches.
In regards to suffering:
Dr. Paul Brand, a physician who spent the majority of his life working with leprosy patients, wrote a book called The Gift of Pain. His main thesis in the book is that the ability to feel physical pain--something we tend to curse, avoid, and treat, but never appreciate--is actually one of the greatest gifts God has given us. He tells the stories of his leprosy patients (often left without pain sensation in hands, feet, and face) who walk for days on open foot fractures without knowing it, lose fingers because they are chewed off by rats while they sleep, walk on hot coals and subsequently get nasty infected foot ulcers, permanently damage their hands when they're burned on hot dishes, and on and on...all because they can't feel pain. Their body's ability to tell them that something is wrong is gone. Their "pain-free" life is actually a living hell, as many go on to lose all their limbs and thus their ability to work, live, survive. In the midst of incredible physical pain, we curse it like hell (childbirth, anyone??), and believe me, I believe in good pain control (I spend half my day doing it), but it's a balance. If our only goal is to fight physical pain, we forget that without it we would suffer MORE.
"Emotional" pain may work the same way. There are people who can barely feel emotional pain. This is a curse in the same way that the inability of a leprosy patient to feel physical pain is. Maybe the suffering of discipleship is similar. Maybe we don't even feel it, or see it, or whatever, if we're calloused to it. And maybe if we've spent our whole lives running from pain, because that's what society tells us to do, we'll run from the suffering that discipleship may bring, too. But just like physical pain, if we do this, I wonder if we end up suffering MORE. I don't know.
Just my 2 cents. | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 10/14/2003 1:35 AM (GMT -6) | | MephEternal,
How do I feel about Christian discipleship? I feel it is sensible, toward having a correct moral perception.
First off, I truly struggled with the question, I wanted it to ask, "What do you think of Christian discipleship", rather than how do I feel; honestly, I feel unwilling way to often for my liking to do the right thing.
Learning to practice what Christ teaches feels terrible at times for me, though I believe it is always the most sensible moral action to take every time.
No examples needed I hope?
I mean by, "toward having a correct moral perception", by inferring process and not ever or maybe I should say always, as for me, first off proper success, at the application of Christ's truth.
Exactly,
Tim
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 10/14/2003 5:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey everyone
I think I agree with Dr Boyd on this one.
Jesus tells us to die to ourselves so that we can live. The focus is actually on the life part.
A cool book to read is "The Spirit of the Disciplines" by Dallas Willard. It it he mentions that actually, although there is a cost to following Jesus, the cost of not following Jesus is even higher! Jesus' yoke, once you surrender all and lean on him, is light and easy, not like the heavy yoke of the enemy and the world.
I'm definitely discovering that in my experience at the moment. I went through a patch in my life where God called me to let go of loads of things, and the whole process hurt a lot. It kinda made me a bit bitter towards God, that he just wants me to do hard things. Whereas actually, he just wants me to be in a place where I can receive his abundant life better as the other 'stuff' was getting in the way.
Hurrah.
Timlings | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/14/2003 2:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Whasssuupp, SO GOOD to see you back on the board. [ Missed our brilliance the last year. Willard, you and Timlings all made a very important and profound point: the suffering of dying to self is a legitimate suffering that not only helps us avoid the illegitimate and far worse pain of NOT dying to self, but which ushers us into LIFE, LOVE and JOY. Jesus' burden is light and his joy fulfilled in us TO THE EXTENT THAT WE'VE DIED. To the extent that we haven't, his calling is an insurmountable burden.
People who are still clinging to this world hear Jesus' message -- and Duane's expression of it -- as graceless, harsh, perhaps legalistic, etc... Its because they want the LIFE without the pain of dying to self. But unless we die, as Paul says, we cannot live. In truth, Jesus' message to die is an invitation to full life, free life, life packed with meaning, joy and even pleasure -- but wholly different from what "the world" defines as life, meaning, joy and pleasure. We don't ACHIEVE the former by dying to the latter. I don't see "non-negiotables" as sort of "requirements" for God giving us his life. Rather, we POSITION OURSELVES to receive the former by dying to the latter. For the former -- life in the world -- is the one thing that blocks us from the latter -- GOD's life in us and through us. It's not about fulfilling a contract: its about getting rid of an obstacle that keeps us from a RELATIONSHIP.
Dying to Live: THIS is the central paradox of the gospel.
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 10/15/2003 1:50 AM (GMT -6) | | | There is only room for one true living boss in the universe worth working for, ouch! | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 10/16/2003 11:15 AM (GMT -6) | | fyodor
I'm still digging through it, but on the level I would say that this is a sermon I've been waiting to hear...
I think in a very real way, we need to eradicate luke warm Christianity. it's decision time. Are we going to "follow" Christ or not. Either we do or we don't, but I don't think there is much gray area for the wishy-washy Christian.
I agree with most of your sermon, though I think there are many more non-negotiables that we are to adhere to.
Iconoclast
fyodor, it sounds like you heard Meph’s sermon as a call to “eradicate luke warm Christianity.” Eradicate it from where? The wishy-washy Christians all around us?
Will we know whether someone is being a wishy-washy Christian based on whether they are adhering to all the “non-negotiables” that we need to establish?
Doc
People who are still clinging to this world hear Jesus' message -- and Duane's (Meph’s) expression of it -- as graceless, harsh, perhaps legalistic, etc... Its because they want the LIFE without the pain of dying to self.
Iconoclast
If I hear fyodor’s expression of Meph’s expression of Jesus’ message as being somewhat “graceless, harsh, perhaps legalistic, etc…” are you suggesting that this is because I want “the LIFE without the pain of dying to self?”
More specifically,
Are you intending to imply the opposite of your syllogism? If someone hears Meph’s expression as “graceless, harsh, perhaps legalistic, etc…” that they then must be “people who are still clinging to this world?”
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 10/16/2003 6:12 PM (GMT -6) | | disciples have beautiful feet
By the tender mercy of our God,
the dawn from on high will break upon us,
to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the way of peace. (Luke 1:78–79)
Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed. Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (Heb. 12:12–14)
As shoes for your feet put on whatever will make you ready to proclaim the gospel of peace. (Eph. 6:15)
And during supper Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God, got up from the table, took off his outer robe, and tied a towel around himself. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel that was tied around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?” Jesus answered, “You do not know now what I am doing, but later you will understand.” Peter said to him, “You will never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no share with me…” (John 13:2–16)
Look! On the mountains the feet of one
who brings good tidings,
who proclaims peace! (Nahum 1:15)
How beautiful upon the mountains
are the feet of the messenger who announces peace,
who brings good news,
who announces salvation,
who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.” (Isa. 52:7; cf. Rom. 10:15)
He made my feet like the feet of deer,
and set me secure on the heights.
You have made me stride freely,
and my feet do not slip… (2 Sam. 22:34, 37; cf. Psalm 18; Hab. 3:19)
After he had washed their feet, had put on his robe, and had returned to the table, he said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord—and you are right, for that is what I am. So if I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have set you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you. Very truly, I tell you, servants are not greater than their master, nor are messengers greater than the one who sent them. (John 13:2–16)
The God of peace will shortly crush Satan under your feet. (Rom. 16:20)
Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” (1 Cor. 15:24–28)
And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. (Eph. 1:22)
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 10/16/2003 6:58 PM (GMT -6) | | From www.dictionary.com:
disciple
1.
a. One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of another.
b. An active adherent, as of a movement or philosophy.
2. often Disciple One of the original followers of Jesus.
3. Disciple A member of the Disciples of Christ.
[Middle English, from Old English discipul, and from Old French desciple both from Latin discipulus, pupil, from discere, to learn. See dek- in Indo-European Roots.]
disciple
\Dis*ci"ple\, n. [OE. disciple, deciple, OF. disciple, fr. L. discipulus, fr. discere to learn (akin to docere to teach; see Docile) + prob. a root meaning to turn or drive, as in L. pellere to drive (see Pulse).] One who receives instruction from another; a scholar; a learner; especially, a follower who has learned to believe in the truth of the doctrine of his teacher; an adherent in doctrine; as, the disciples of Plato; the disciples of our Savior.
Synonym: Learner; scholar; pupil; follower; adherent.
disciple
a scholar, sometimes applied to the followers of John the Baptist (Matt. 9:14), and of the Pharisees (22:16), but principally to the followers of Christ. A disciple of Christ is one who (1) believes his doctrine, (2) rests on his sacrifice, (3) imbibes his spirit, and (4) imitates his example (Matt. 10:24; Luke 14:26, 27, 33; John 6:69).
I tend to think of discipleship as quite simply seeking God's will. It is to be a learner or a pupil of God's. It is to see yourself as simply a child of God who is unconditionally loved. A child who is given the freedom and the opportunity to explore, to grow, to learn and to share this experience - this life of learning and growing and loving - with all those around us. And when I say "share this experience" I don't mean telling everyone about this wonderful experience they should be having. I mean actually experiencing it with them.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/16/2003 7:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc: Jesus' burden is light and his joy fulfilled in us TO THE EXTENT THAT WE'VE DIED. To the extent that we haven't, his calling is an insurmountable burden. People who are still clinging to this world hear Jesus' message -- and Duane's expression of it -- as graceless, harsh, perhaps legalistic, etc...
Iconoclast: Are you intending to imply the opposite of your syllogism? If someone hears Meph’s expression as "graceless, harsh, perhaps legalistic, etc…" that they then must be "people who are still clinging to this world?"
Doc: From "All A are B" it does not follow that "All B are A." All who cling to life here and now (A) hear the call to die to self as graceless (B). But it doesn’t follow that all who hear the call to die to self as graceless (B) therefore cling to life here and now (A). One could hear the call to die to self as graceless for any number of reasons. One of them is (A). Another could be that the way the call to die to self was worded struck them for whatever reasons as graceless instead of being graceful. And there are many other variables as well.
-----------------
Doc: I was really p^%$$##@!!!!.
Tigress: I was a tad disappointed that you were so hard on a layperson for questioning the motives of a preacher. Although, it looks like you rebuked yourself before you said anything unGodly.
Doc: I agree that shouldn’t have said I was p^%$$##, though it was true. It was stupid of me, and I apologize. If the suspicion had been raised privately, I would have perhaps been disappointed to the extent that I thought trust was assumed. But if it had been done in private, there would have been opportunity for clarification and discussion and the matter would have been worked through and learned from rather quickly, as it now has for both Spring's Meph and I.
This episode has convinced me that this board should not be used to air anything – positive or negative – about WHC, or any other particular congregation. The original purpose of this board was strictly to give opportunity to exchange and inquire into theological ideas. We should try to steer clear of matters pertaining to particular congregations just as we try to steer clear of matters pertaining to particular people.
We obviously haven’t advocated this before, so no one (including me) is at fault for talking about WHC on this site up to this point. And Meph is not to be faulted for inviting feedback on his sermon on this site. But I now see how this confuses Christus Victor Ministries with Woodland Hills Church ministry, and its not beneficial for CVM or WHC for this to be the case. Matters pertaining to WHC should be addressed to WHC. Matters pertaining to a particular person should be addressed in private to that person. All theological questions and opinions, however, ARE WELCOME. 
I’m think we should in the near future post something along these lines on this site to provide guidelines for the future– both about steering clear of personal matters and congregational matters.
Live and learn, right?
Doc
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 10/17/2003 1:31 AM (GMT -6) | | A thought...
The use of WHC as a specific example of how the theological ideas that are discussed play out in 'real' life has, I believe, been part of what has grounded many of the discussions here in reality.
I always think back fondly of our discussion of the role of membership in the church as it is formulated at WHC. With the policy that is being advocated, that discussion could not have taken place. I understand the that the spotlight on WHC is at times uncomfortable, but I think we have all gained valuable insights from these discussions even though some of the things uncovered have not been pretty to behold.
As always,  , I will continue to respect the wishes of our gracious host.
peace, don | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/17/2003 3:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi all-
When it comes to nailing down what discipleship means my first response is to say, “Go read Dallas Willard.” His thoughts and challenges have influenced me a lot.
I’d like to offer two thoughts.
First, it sometimes helps to change our language, I mean the words we use to describe something. Let me give a quick example and then try to come back to discipleship. Some of you know I’ve been involved in an Arabic translation project. It’s taken years, but the Old and New Testaments now exist in Arabic for Muslim readers. Well, a year ago some churches in Southeast Asia asked us to provide them with an English version of our Arabic version. Confused? I was too. The thing is Muslim in Southeast Asia don’t speak Arabic, but they (in particular the younger generation) all speak English. They have a lot of respect for Arabic as the language of the Quran, but they don’t read and write it. So, what these believers working among Muslims wanted was a translation of our Arabic Bible into English. The Arabic text would appear on one page and an English translation of the Arabic would appear on the facing page.
Where am I going? OK, as I began translating the Arabic of Luke back into English I faced several interesting choices. Because I’m writing for an English-speaking Muslim readership, I wanted to be sensitive to issues that make understanding the gospel difficult for Muslims. For example, take the word “Pharisee.” If you’re raised in an English-speaking church you know who the Pharisees were. But a Muslim in Southeast Asia who speaks English as a second language won’t have a clue. I could litter the text with footnotes explaining Pharisees, Sadducees, and other key terms, or I can just find a better way of identifying such groups. We’re experimenting now with alternatives for “Pharisees” (my suggestion was “religious fundamentalists” but that doesn’t quite get it either).
Back to discipleship. In putting our Arabic translation into English for Muslim readers, I decided not to use “disciple” because it’s not really a common word. It’s a “Christian” word, a good reason, I thought, for NOT using it. So I went with “students.” A disciple is fundamentally a student. So as Muslims read the English version of our Arabic Bible, they’ll read about “Jesus’s students” and not about “the disciples of Jesus.”
Finding new words to express these truths helps us understand what it is we're really talking about. Now, since being a student of Jesus means being a student of his way of life, I actually think “apprentice” is even better. It avoids the misunderstanding that discipleship is merely learning information about Jesus. “Students” can do that, but “apprentices” can’t. Since what we’re learning from Jesus is a way of living (thinking, feeling, acting, relating) we’re really his “apprentices.” Just like a young person might become the apprentice of a master mechanic, learning how to DO what a mechanic does, we’re apprentices under Jesus, learning how to DO what Jesus did. That’s fundamentally how I understand discipleship. It’s also what makes discipling others in a classroom or a local church on Wednesday and Sunday nights less than adequate. We do more discipling of others outside the class than inside the class. Learning from Jesus is learning a life-skill, not infomation only. It's like learning to swim. You can study it in a classroom, but eventually you have to get in the water and DO it.
Secondly, there’s every reason for believers and church leaders to explore what Jesus’s way of living has to do with material possessions, wealth, poverty, tithing, giving, etc. I think the principle that comes to us from Jesus and the early church regarding discipleship and material possessions is simple: Stewardship. That’s it. We’re stewards of everything that passes through our hands, whether properties, cash, investments, talents, time, whatever. It’s ALL God’s, as are WE God’s. So everything I own is at God’s disposal. It seems to me that an apprentice’s relationship to material possessions and money is that of a steward. We share God’s passion and concern for people and relate our living and possessing things to that concern, to the concerns of the one for whom we manage our possessions.
That much I think everybody would agree with. It’s attempting to unpack the PRINCIPLE of stewardship in particular APPLICATIONS in specific circumstances that’s much more difficult, and I think that’s what was behind Spring’s post to Mephi. It’s one thing to say “Discipleship means being a steward of all I own in light of God’s concern for the world and I ought to be prepared to do with my possession whatever God might ask me to do with them” (that’s the PRINCIPLE we all agree on). But it’s another thing to say “Discipleship means people who make X amount of dollars per year are to give X % of their income to their local church, or to this particular church project, or that they must give at all on this particular occasion.”
We can preach that radical discipleship = stewardship = “All I am and have is God’s and is at his disposal, and whatever he tells me to do with my house, car, or investments is cool with me.” We cannot, I don’t think, preach that radical discipleship = stewardship = specific percentages, amounts, donations to specific projects.
I know wealthy people who live VERY comfortably on 50% of their income and who give away the other 50%. I know other wealthy people who live on a greater percentage and give away a smaller percentage, and others who live on less than 50% and give away the majority of what they earn. I understand John Wesley’s eventual annual income would have made him in today’s standards a multi-millionaire. But he continued to live on the same small amount, equal to what an average middle income wage-earner got by on, and gave the rest away.
My point is, radical discipleship can NEVER amount to telling people what they are to do specifically with their money and possessions. It can insist on the radical principle of stewardship, that is, THAT all we are and possess is God’s and at God’s disposal and under God’s direction, but it can’t attempt to specify for people HOW this is to work out in terms of percentages and amounts. To do so can, and almost always does, become legalistic and abusive. What does Peter tell Ananias regarding his offering? Does he not essentially say, “Look, Any, was not this property yours to determine before God what you ought to do with it? You didn’t have to bring it! Why lie about it now that you’ve brought it?”? I think the principle is clear.
Barnabas sold some land and gave the money to the church. Did he sell every piece of land he owned? Almost certainly not. I’m sure he prayed about it and was led of the Spirit to give what he gave. Radical discipleship means relating ourselves and our possession to God as sovereign owner of all and making all we are and possess available to God. But discipleship cannot tell us what percentage of a person’s wealth or possessions God is asking believers to give for specific concerns or even THAT a particular individual is to give anything at all toward a specific project. That’s God’s prerogative and it is apparently different from disciple to disciple from occasion to occasion.
I’m an outsider to WHC, folks. I have no business intruding into what apparently became a difference of opinion or a misunderstanding between Springs and Mephi and others apparently who attend WHC (a GREAT church with an AWESOME vision) over how discipleship and material possessions relate with respect to the financial needs of a specific part of WHC’s vision. But I love you all so much. I really wanted to say this. (Forgive me, Doc, for bringing WHC up. I think you might be right that we ought to pursue a different policy in the future about discussing WHC stuff. That's up to you. But I just wanted to pour some Balm of Gilead into the situation! Hopefully next week when I’m in town we can DRINK some French Balm of Gilead too!
I listened to Mephi’s sermon and really appreciated it. I read DB’s The Cost of Discipleship when I was 16. It was one of many things that influenced me to decide to leave America and live in the Muslim world. So I could really follow Mephi’s points. As he began to apply this to WHC’s specific vision (something every church ought to do—-that is, seek to apply the larger biblical principle of stewardship to their specific goals and vision), I didn’t get the feeling that Mephi was dictating to people specific percentages or amounts they ought to give to that church’s particular goals. What I heard was Mephi saying something like this: “Hey y’all, radical discipleship means being proactive about relating all we are and all we possess to the concerns of the Kingdom, especially as that Kingdom is manifested in this particular community of faith we’re members of, right here. And God has giving this church a vision and specific goals to work towards. So, let’s all prayerfully put everything we are and have at God’s disposal to fulfill what God has called THIS church to do in THIS community at THIS time.” That’s cool. I don’t think anybody would question this type of challenge.
Since I’m not an insider, I can only guess that Springs thought Mephi had crossed the line between affirming the PRINCPLE of radical stewardship and telling people that if they were disciples of Christ at all they HAD to do X or HAD to give X for a specific project when such matters are God’s prerogative. Perhaps Mephi could have pointed out that what amounts to “radical” stewardship will end up being different for different people since God doesn’t specify the same amounts and percentages on every occasion for every believer. I personally would not have required this qualification on Mephi's part because I knew where he was going, but apparently adding something like this would have helped others.
God told Barnabas to sell X property and give the proceeds to the church. God left other properties owned by Barnabas and perhaps much owned by others untouched. God defines the specifics (amounts and percentages to be given in response to specific needs) of radical stewardship for each individual disciple differently. Allowing GOD to be the one who defines HOW such radical discipleship plays out in terms of specific amounts on specific occasions is as biblical a principle, I think, as is the principle that “all I own is at God’s disposal.” Perhaps Springs and others felt like Mephi was crossing that line between principle and specific application. Perhaps that’s understandable since local church leaders are responsible for bringing biblical principles into relationship to the specific needs, visions, and goals of their congregations. I don’t think Mephi crossed that line, but if someone honestly, before God, felt that he had, how would that person most lovingly voice their concern? And what would a loving response to that person look like?
Everybody drink deep of the Balm of Gilead, Bordeaux 1995! Love love love love love love love!
Tom  | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/17/2003 4:32 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 10/17/2003 5:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Doc: I was really p^%$$##@!!!!.
Tigress: I was a tad disappointed that you were so hard on a layperson for questioning the motives of a preacher. Although, it looks like you rebuked yourself before you said anything unGodly.
Doc: I agree that shouldn’t have said I was p^%$$##, though it was true. It was stupid of me, and I apologize. If the suspicion had been raised privately, I would have perhaps been disappointed to the extent that I thought trust was assumed. But if it had been done in private, there would have been opportunity for clarification and discussion and the matter would have been worked through and learned from rather quickly, as it now has for both Spring's Meph and I.
This episode has convinced me that this board should not be used to air anything – positive or negative – about WHC, or any other particular congregation. The original purpose of this board was strictly to give opportunity to exchange and inquire into theological ideas. We should try to steer clear of matters pertaining to particular congregations just as we try to steer clear of matters pertaining to particular people.
We obviously haven’t advocated this before, so no one (including me) is at fault for talking about WHC on this site up to this point. And Meph is not to be faulted for inviting feedback on his sermon on this site. But I now see how this confuses Christus Victor Ministries with Woodland Hills Church ministry, and its not beneficial for CVM or WHC for this to be the case. Matters pertaining to WHC should be addressed to WHC. Matters pertaining to a particular person should be addressed in private to that person. All theological questions and opinions, however, ARE WELCOME.
I’m think we should in the near future post something along these lines on this site to provide guidelines for the future– both about steering clear of personal matters and congregational matters.
Live and learn, right?
Doc
Greg,
I don't have a problem with discussing stuff pertaining to WHC or even a pastor getting challenged about his/her motives or meaning of what he/she preaches on. That's a part of theological debate, too, is it not? That's exactly what we do here.
I just had a problem with you being so defensive about a layperson questioning a minister. I mean if we're not free to do that then our church is like a cult. And I know that's not what you want!
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/19/2003 9:28 PM (GMT -6) | | I hear you guys. But the singular purpose of this board is to exchange IDEAS -- divorced from the particulars of people's identity, congregation, background, mental health, divorce status, belief status, ETC... I think this focus becomes blurred when we gravitate into discussions of particular people, pastors, congregations, etc... We have other avenues for addressing these particular issues if they concern us. This board, it seems to me, shouldn't be one of them.
Christus Victor Ministiries was created primarily to facilitate my ministry OUTSIDE Woodlandhills Church. This board is part of that ministry. I deeply desire to keep the two distinct. So, whether or not we make it official or not, my hope is that all feedback on WHC matters is given TO WHC.
Maybe this is idealistic. But I'd like to shoot for it.
Doc
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 10/19/2003 10:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast
fyodor, it sounds like you heard Meph’s sermon as a call to “eradicate luke warm Christianity.” Eradicate it from where? The wishy-washy Christians all around us?
Will we know whether someone is being a wishy-washy Christian based on whether they are adhering to all the “non-negotiables” that we need to establish?
Fyodor
Sorry, haven't had a chance to get to this discussion. Point taken Iconoclast. My post was the result of passion and excitement...Could have been toned down a bit for the sake of discussion.
First of all, we don't establish any of the non-negotiables, those have been established for us.
Secondly, I'm not so much interested in trying to figure out whether someone is or isn't a wishy-washy Christian as much as I'm interested in motivating the whole of us to move towards deeper, passionate fully realized discipleship.
Eradicating luke warm Christianity. – Guilty in more ways than one. I'll let Meph correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the sense from the sermon that it is decision time. Time to choose how much and how far we're willing go to be disciples of Christ.
DISCIPLESHIP-
I think we need to look to scripture to know what discipleship or being a disciple is...
Matthew 10:1
He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. Involved in Spiritual Warfare, Healing
48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." (Doing the will of the Father)
Matthew 14:18-20
18"Bring them here to me," he said. 19And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. 20They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. Servants
24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? Dying to self, Following Christ, Radical willingness to give all.
Mark 16
19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it. Preaching and working with the Lord everywhere
John 15
7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. 9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. Abiding in Christ, and in the love of the Father
Acts 13
52And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit. spirit-filled
Acts 14
21They preached the good news in that city and won a large number of disciples. Then they returned to Lystra, Iconium and Antioch, 22strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God," they said. Suffering
Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Teaching, Recruiting, Obeying all that Christ has commanded
Greg: The call to DIE to self, to forsake all for the sake of the Kingdom, to pick up the cross and follow Jesus, etc.... is the call to LET GO of non-life for the sake of life....Dying to Live: THIS is the central paradox of the gospel.
Right on. To take a page out of Bonhoeffer's COD, this is the difference between Cheap Grace and Costly Grace.
"Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a person must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs us our life, and it is grace because it gives us the only true life....
....It is a fatal misunderstanding of Luther's action to suppose that his rediscovery of the gospel of pure grace offered a general dispensation from obedience to the command of Jesus." - DB
Discipleship is the response to the understanding and acceptance of the ultimate cost that was paid to reconcile the world to God. It seems to me that we have increasingly seen the need to pacify our response to meet worldly standards of social action, social conduct, in an attempt at social conformity whether wittingly or unwittingly.
The true nature of discipleship asks more than acceptance of a message, more than conformity to "Christianity" or "Christendom" if you desire, it commands the antithetical, it commands us to leave our life behind, get up out of the boat and follow Christ's commands. It commands us to fight injustice at every level, which is part of the ministry of reconciliation. It commands us to love God above all and love our neighbors as ourselves.
The choice to "follow Christ" is the choice to become a disciple. As the passage tells us, we are to go and make disciples of all nations. Thus, we are to go, we are to be active, we are to leave our lives behind and we are to bring others to choose to follow. When we choose to follow, we choose to be a disciple, and being a diciple comes with obeying, dying to self, teaching, suffering, spirit-filled life, serving...
†††"One rarely finds an exposition of which it holds true that the exposition is that which is expounded." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 10/20/2003 6:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
I hear you guys. But the singular purpose of this board is to exchange IDEAS -- divorced from the particulars of people's identity, congregation, background, mental health, divorce status, belief status, ETC... I think this focus becomes blurred when we gravitate into discussions of particular people, pastors, congregations, etc... We have other avenues for addressing these particular issues if they concern us. This board, it seems to me, shouldn't be one of them.
Christus Victor Ministiries was created primarily to facilitate my ministry OUTSIDE Woodlandhills Church. This board is part of that ministry. I deeply desire to keep the two distinct. So, whether or not we make it official or not, my hope is that all feedback on WHC matters is given TO WHC.
Maybe this is idealistic. But I'd like to shoot for it.
Doc
Okay, but one thing I need to point out is that sometimes when e-mailing people at WHC, it takes forever to get a response from the specific person we write to. I don't want to hear from an assistant - I want to hear from the person him/herself. Maybe you'd like to address this with them as the head pastor. I'll keep any critiques about anyone or anything from WHC off of this board.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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