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Blood Washed Heretic
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167
| Posted 10/9/2003 6:59 AM (GMT -6) |   | This will be a cursory introduction to my thoughts on this vitally important subject, and we'll see where the discussion goes from here.
Meph, I was unable to listen to your sermon (no sound on work computers  ), but I did check out the study guide/outline. Good stuff, bro.
I think that that the observation of suffering being part of discipleship is fundamental, and often overlooked. The church I'm currently interning at has a healthy small group ministry, and I believe a space has been created where real discipleship can and does take place. However, I'm not sure that the concept of suffering plays a very prominent role in our curriculum. Our curriculum tends to take a back seat to fellowship, prayer, and good ol' fashioned needs-meeting anyway, something I think is perfectly fine, by the way. It's something I'll probably mention to our associate/discipleship minister, because just personally speaking, suffering has played a HUGE role in my personal growth and walk with Jesus.
I feel underqualified to seriously participate in this discussion anyway, as I have yet to read "The Cost of Discipleship" or ANY Bonhoeffer for that matter  ... I know, I'm bad. Hopefully soon.
Anyway, that's a quick intro to my discipleship journey, and I look forward to sharing more as we go along...
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love. | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 10/9/2003 5:54 PM (GMT -6) | | I am not able to down load the sermon. I am not sure if the problem is on their end or my end. I suspect the latter. However, I have been advised that I should be able to open it, if someone were to send it to me in an email attachment.
Any volunteers?
-Springs | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 10/10/2003 1:07 AM (GMT -6) | | | Ouch! Or in other words, "The grace that does not change my life, will not save my soul." | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 10/10/2003 3:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Discipleship: The getting-out-of-bed and the day-in and day-out of making the most of yet one more opportunity to reach my hand closer toward the One I love, worship, adore, want to be like and wish to spend eternity with.
That's what discipleship is to me. (Soory, Meph, but I can't hear anything on this computer at work (or, at least during work), so I can't enjoy your sermon ... yet!)
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 10/11/2003 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | You are so right Ross. The immediate result of obedience to Christ is joy, here now, and eternally.
The sermon opened with this thought.
Dwayne: “I don’t think I have to tell too many of you today that we live in a very choice oriented, or should I say, choice saturated society. Everything is about what we can get, and how many of it we can get. I mean there’s tons of channels that you can choose from, tons of toothpaste, you can go mentally insane trying to get some toilet tissue."
"Our 21 century American society is geared toward consumerism, is geared toward giving people as many options and choices as they can possibly take in mentally so they can feel like they are in control."
"How does choice play a part in discipleship? We are not following Jesus into consumerism. Luke 14:25 Now, large crowds were traveling with him, and he turned and said to them, whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brother and sister, yes even life itself cannot be by disciple…estimate the cost…
all will begin to ridicule him …None of you can become my disciple unless you give up your possessions.”
Springs: If we interpret scripture according to context we could look at the verses before this section and see that Jesus says, don’t invite your friends and relatives, and rich people to your parties, invite the poor and suffering. Then in this section quoted above, it talks about leaving behind FAMILY, and SELF ESTEEM, to follow Jesus. Brother and sisters, not consumables or money. When God said count the cost, he was talking about these RELATIONSHIPS and HUMILITY, not worldy possessions, and consumerism. When a Jew followed Christ their family disowned them and they were kicked out of the synagogue. If we get life out of the fact that we are esteemed by our family, we will not follow Christ out of our dead churches, because our families wouldn’t approve, they might hate us, vilify us, gossip about us, and even humiliate us. People that we love dearly may turn away from us if we follow Christ. That is the cost we have to count. It is the cost of lost relationship. It is the cost of being disrespected by those whose opinion we have cared most about all our lives. That is the cost Christ is talking about. The cost of lost love, the cost of being considered a fool. The cost of rejection. The cost of being humble even when attacked, loving when rejected.
Dwayne:
“Once you choose to follow Christ you are a disciple. Discipleship = love = radical obedience = ministry of reconciliation = suffering
Explained in this way:
Non-negotaibles:
-love – commanded to love everyone
-Radical Obedience – put aside needs, wants
-Daily death to self – self denial means your aspirations, will, view, and what you want to do, 60,000 job, big car, big house, dreams, things we want to be. If God asked us to give away our income, our weekends, the Vikings game, our time, ALL of our resources, that’s self denial. We can’t call ourselves true disciples unless we do that. We can’t deny ourselves and then indulge ourselves, we must daily deny ourselves.
-Operate in the ministry of Reconciliation
2 Cor.5 …God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. That God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ ambassadors. As though God were making the appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.
Dwayne: “We are supposed to be the people who are called by the love of God to really show the people the lie of race for what it is, we are supposed to be the people that are called to show the lie of sexism for what it is, a lie, we are meant to stand against anything and everything that separates people and separates lives. We are meant to bring healing to that. How can we consider ourselves disciples if we are not ministers of reconciliation? I just don’t see how, if we really do have the reconciling call from God that we can call ourselves disciples and not act against the racial stuff we see?”
Springs: Let’s look at this verse again too, God was reconciling the WORLD to HIMSELF, he called US to be reconciled to GOD.
He called us to be ministers of Christ to get rid of the separation between PEOPLE and GOD. Not between races, genders, etc. Not between these people and those people, not to come against anything, and everything that separates lives! The gospel itself will separate us.
So we are not disciples if we don’t battle consumerism and racism by denying ourselves worldly goods and getting involved in race relations???
Romans 12: 6. We have different gifts according to the grace given to us. If a man’s gift is prophecy, let him use it in proportion to his faith, if it is serving, let him serve; if is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; If it is leadership, let him govern diligently, if it is showing mercy,…
Love one another, be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer, bless others, don’t take revenge, live in peace with all men as much as that is possible, be humble, and live justly. The fruit of the spirit is love and joy, and peace and patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and faithfulness.
Did it.
Springs
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/11/2003 1:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Hmmmmm….
Springs, dealing with Luke 14:25 (emphases mine)
quote:
If we interpret scripture according to context we could look at the verses before this section and see that Jesus says, don’t invite your friends and relatives, and rich people to your parties, invite the poor and suffering. Then in this section quoted above, it talks about leaving behind FAMILY, and SELF ESTEEM, to follow Jesus. Brother and sisters, not consumables or money. When God said count the cost, he was talking about these RELATIONSHIPS and HUMILITY, not worldy possessions, and consumerism. When a Jew followed Christ their family disowned them and they were kicked out of the synagogue. If we get life out of the fact that we are esteemed by our family, we will not follow Christ out of our dead churches, because our families wouldn’t approve, they might hate us, vilify us, gossip about us, and even humiliate us. People that we love dearly may turn away from us if we follow Christ. That is the cost we have to count. It is the cost of lost relationship. It is the cost of being disrespected by those whose opinion we have cared most about all our lives. That is the cost Christ is talking about. The cost of lost love, the cost of being considered a fool. The cost of rejection. The cost of being humble even when attacked, loving when rejected.
The text:
Luke 14:25-33
Now large crowds were traveling with him; and he turned and said to them, “Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not first sit down and estimate the cost, to see whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it will begin to ridicule him, saying, ‘This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.’ Or what king, going out to wage war against another king, will not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to oppose the one who comes against him with twenty thousand? If he cannot, then, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for the terms of peace. So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions.
My use of the Lukan text was not used as an all-out attack against American consumerism. Not at all. As I said in the sermon, there were MANY good points made in this passage, but I was focussing on a particular line of thought. Though the last sentence of the text makes is clear that ALL things (including possessions) must be relativized by the call to follow Jesus, that was not the main thing I started out with. If you notice, in my sermon, I went directly into how the choice to follow Jesus was a “choice of critical significance” and used this text as a basis of what it means to count the costs. And I talked about how the “choice of critical significance” can REDUCE or ELIMINATE choices later on down the line. I actually go on later to talk about just what you rightly bring up: the possible loss of relationships, being looked at as a fool, etc. But I was not using this text to primarily argue against American consumerism.
Since we’re on the subject, I’m sure that you are making a bifurcation between possessions and relationships here where it doesn’t need to be. Jesus wants our TOTAL dedication to Him and the Kingdom. And I think that includes our “possessions” ALL of who we are and what we have are to be relativized against and dedicated to the Kingdom of God. Would you disagree with that? Would you actually say that biblical testimony doesn’t clearly show that Christ wants TOTAL dedication to Him and His Kingdom purposes?
******************************
Springs (emphases mine):
quote:
Let’s look at this verse again too, God was reconciling the WORLD to HIMSELF, he called US to be reconciled to GOD.
He called us to be ministers of Christ to get rid of the separation between PEOPLE and GOD. Not between races, genders, etc. Not between these people and those people, not to come against anything, and everything that separates lives! The gospel itself will separate us.
So we are not disciples if we don’t battle consumerism and racism by denying ourselves worldly goods and getting involved in race relations???
The text:
2 Cor 5:16-21 (emphases mine)
From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once knew Christ from a human point of view, we know him no longer in that way. So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. So we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us; we entreat you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Question: WHY did Paul say that he no longer regarded ANYONE from a human point of view? Answer: Because,as verses 14 and 15 attest, ALL were unfied in what Christ did for humanity.
2 Cor 5:14-15
For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, so that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them.
The reconciliation of humanity to God CHANGES the way that human beings were to perceive THEMSELVES and relate to EACH OTHER…and in proclaiming the one, we must necessarily proclaim the other. The reconciliation of God to humanity is the reconciliation of humanity to itself, for ALL can become new creations in Christ. Honestly, in addition to this point, I find it very strange that given the INSEPARABLE nature of the 2 Greatest Commandments that you can make this statement. How can one be reconciled to God WITHOUT continually being reconciled to each other?? I’ll just bring in this passage for good measure….
1 John 4:13-21 (emphasis mine)
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God. So we have known and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love. We love because he first loved us. Those who say, “I love God,” and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen. The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also.
See what I’m saying?
Surely, you don’t think that the reconcilation of God and humanity has NO EFFECTS on the healing of our interpersonal relationships, right? Surely, you don’t think that the reconcilation of God to humanity has NO EFFECT on how we should perceive the separating workings of the “god of this evil age”.
*********************************
I could handle the exegetical questions and stuff. You know, clarification. Doubting my exegetical competency is cool. But this just seems downright implying some not-to-cool stuff about me. Now, I’m going to say this because we are cool and we’ve known each other for a while, Springs. We go back. You know DARN WELL better than to say something like this about me! You should know me better than this, Ms. Thang. WAY better. It is clear that you read in an agenda here that was not mine. What would even give you the impression that I would pander my standing before the people of God to speak in order to be little more than a pep rally for some activities going on in the church at the time? Is that even my STYLE?? Come ON! Granted, these things are going on and the message given it’s scope will probably affect those things somewhat. But by NO means would I pull some politically sensitive stunt like what it seems you claim. How long have you KNOWN me, Springs? Sheesh! I did my best to really seek what God had been saying to WHC for the past year…and felt genuinely lead to reaffirm some of the salient points that had been made about discipleship that God had been hitting on before. That’s all.
Normally, I’d let this go. But seeing as I’d like to have our relationship with each other be the best that it can be, I’m going do something different. I’m cool enough with you to say that this just plain disappointed me…and an apology would be nice. Heh. No, really. I’d like an apology. This hurt coming from YOU, Springs. We’re supposed to be cooler than this, you and me. And I would hope that you would see that what you’ve done with your statement was NOT cool.  Thank you.
Holla,
PS: I’ll pipe in more constructively later, bros and sises.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/11/2003 2:24 PM (GMT -6) | | One more thing briefly.
The point is that discipleship IN THIS FALLEN WORLD necessarily entails suffering. Look at the Bonhoeffer quote and how I discuss it. That's why I thought that the Packers/Vikings analogy was pretty cool. It seems quite clear that following Jesus and embodying the Kingdom of God in this Matrix-like world system that is at odds with God will most certainly entail suffering. As such, suffering of some type isinescapable in living as a disciple in this world ruled by the "god of this age".
Is it true that this world system truly is an ENEMY of
God...or not?
1John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or the things in the world. The love of the Father is not in those who love the world; for all that is in the world—the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eyes, the pride in riches—comes not from the Father but from the world. And the world and its desire are passing away, but those who do the will of God live forever.
Jame 4:1-6
Those conflicts and disputes among you, where do they come from? Do they not come from your cravings that are at war within you? You want something and do not have it; so you commit murder. And you covet something and cannot obtain it; so you engage in disputes and conflicts. You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, in order to spend what you get on your pleasures. Adulterers! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, “God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? But he gives all the more grace; therefore it says,
“God opposes the proud,
but gives grace to the humble.”
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 10/11/2003 2:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Alright Dwayne, I’ll apologze. I’m sorry you felt hurt. That was not my intent. Perhaps I could have communicated my thoughts more clearly or less personally. I admit I can’t see into your heart, or know what your motivation is, but I had a flag go up. I have enjoyed meeting you. I have nothing against you personally. I hope you can understand where I’m coming from.
Thanks,
Springs
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/11/2003 3:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel, ON www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2438
ACTIONS, SPEAKING LOUDER THAN WORDS...
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
POW:
quote:
Think of Communion THIS WAY. God calls us to come together before him as a Body, to express love for one another, and to offer Him our gifts--which are nothing more and nothing less than the whole life and whole world that he gave us. We bring our food and our drink freely with gratitude and generousity, and divide it with those less fortunate who are in need. And some of that same bread and wine is brought to the altar in the service and offered to God for His blessing. The we ASK God for two things: First that He send His Holy Spirit; and second, that The Spirit make us to be the Body.
I'm really feelin' this. More than that, I just believe this is a true representation of what Communion is supposed to be. Sweet stuff, man.
THOUGHT I'D ADD THIS, FOUND ON A COPTIC SITE:
quote:
PART I
THE OFFERTORY
Since the early church times, the faithful have used to come to the church bearing their offerings. The bread and wine are included in these offerings, in addition to other oblations like oil, cheese, olives, etc
Offering bread and wine is not only a physical necessity for the Eucharist, but it has a spiritual meaning. As The Lord Jesus offered himself a sacrifice of love to God the Father on our behalf, we ought to offer our selves totally, through our unity with him, as His own body.
By the Offertory, the Church declares in a practical way her acceptance to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, as well as her willingness to offer her life as a sacrifice of love for Him. Our life together with our labor, joys, sorrows, hopes, ambitions. Hardships, etc…are represented , by offering the bread and wine.
The essence of our sacrifices is not our money or possessions, but offering ourselves and our lives in Jesus Christ. The Priest says, in the fraction prayer of the Easter; "He, Christ, raised His saints on high with Him; and offered them as an oblation to His Father". For this reason, the Church does not accept the oblations of the unjust, the adulteress, the avaricious and the unbelievers, if they still not repenting.
1. The Preparation
As we start the journey of the liturgy and the Eucharist, The Church realizes that this is a unique journey. It is a departure from the earthly concerns to that of the heaven.
How dreadful are these moments, for the Church is moved toward the throne of God, in front of Him, in accompany with the Cherubim, the Seraphim and all the choirs of the heavenly hosts, offering to the Father the sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son by His Holy Spirit. So, we have to be prepared well for this service.
www.copticchurch.net/topics/liturgy/liturgy_of_st_basil.pdf
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/11/2003 3:06 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/11/2003 3:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/11/2003 6:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Mephi-
I'm gonna try to download your sermon today if I'm able. Looking forward to it.
I see Spring's point about Pauls primary point in 2Cor. 5 being our reconciling people to God (as opposed to reconciling them to each other independently of God) and yet Mephi's point from v. 16 about "not regarding people from a worldly point of view" is fundamental to our getting involved in reconciling others to God. I preach world missions from this passages quite often. It lays both questions before us. It calls us to reconcile the world to God, but to even consider this we have to deal with our perceptions of others.
Take care,
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word
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 10/12/2003 1:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Springs live in peace with all men as much as that is possible, be humble, and live justly.
I don't get it. Calling someone out in public "accusing" them of having an ulterior motive seems to violate this on a fundamental level. Could you have asked him in private?
Springs:
quote:
Alright Dwayne, I’ll apologze. I’m sorry you felt hurt.
This doesn't sound like an apology for what youdid. It sounds like a way around what you did and an apology for what Mr. Polk felt
Springs:
quote:
That was I admit I can’t see into your heart, or know what your motivation is, but flags go up for me when you are working on a racial reconciliation program in the church, and Doc is leading a massive fundraiser and you get up and preach, “You can’t even consider yourself a disciple of Christ if you are not willing to give up all your material possessions, and work in the ministry of racial reconciliation” Whether it was deliberate or not, there it is.
I'm wondering... why do "flags go up"
What if that was the entire motivation?
What if it was a conspiracy? A total plan by Doc (the leader of this entire church endeavor for Kingdom work)and Mr. Polk?
What specifically are you thinking they going to gain (personally) from seeing this come to fruition?? Total reconciliation? A church that does more for teens? The community? Awareness??
Sorry Springs. I realize I have no business in this conversation (except as a covenant partner and sister in Christ). I really DO want to live at peace with all men/women/and you. I just found the accusations to be unproductive and unity crushing -- some of the same things I see slowing down WHC from being able to accomplish this Kingdom Work which (from my understanding) the majority of Covenant Partners desire to see happen.
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 10/12/2003 10:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Word, I’m not sure why you think you have no business being in this conversation when this board is an internationally open forum, but for my part I welcome your participation.
I’m not sure why you think my comments should have been made in private. Maybe you mean that my tone seemed too personal. I posed my last statement as a question in order to lesson any perception of attack, but evidently I wasn’t successful. I did think about how I could have phrased it differently, perhaps someone here can give me some pointers. I was not trying to cause Dwayne hurt with my remarks. So my apology in that regard is genuine. However, I do not apologize for the gist of the question, so I believe that I used well formed grammar in that instance.
Now you ask, Why do flags go up, what if it was the entire motivation etc. I don’t even know where to begin. Maybe Dwayne could explain it better than I can. It’s about not using the pulpit as a bully pit. See, when a preacher gets up in front of a congregation they have authority. They are speaking for God in a sense. It should never be used to advance personal agenda’s. The people trust their leaders to be on their knees in prayer and truly listen for the message. I have seen horrible abuses perpetrated from pulpits in the Lord’s name. I will not ever be quiet about that, even if it causes division. Like Dwayne said, that is some seriously, not cool stuff. Even though I use a pen name on this board, there are many who read here, that know me. By saying what I did I risked rejection. I risked being ridiculed.
Now, I am acquainted with Dwayne, and I do belive he has a heart for the Lord. That’s why I was so surprised when I heard the sermon. All I could think was, I hope to God that was a coincidence. Maybe I should have just said that, I don’t know. Like I said, maybe someone can give me some pointers.
Blessings,
Springs
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word
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 10/12/2003 11:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Springs
Now you ask, Why do flags go up, what if it was the entire motivation etc. I don’t even know where to begin. Maybe Dwayne could explain it better than I can. It’s about not using the pulpit as a bully pit. See, when a preacher gets up in front of a congregation they have authority. They are speaking for God in a sense. It should never be used to advance personal agenda’s. The people trust their leaders to be on their knees in prayer and truly listen for the message. I have seen horrible abuses perpetrated from pulpits in the Lord’s name. I will not ever be quiet about that, even if it causes division. Like Dwayne said, that is some seriously, not cool stuff. Even though I use a pen name on this board, there are many who read here, that know me. By saying what I did I risked rejection. I risked being ridiculed.
Now, I am acquainted with Dwayne, and I do belive he has a heart for the Lord. That’s why I was so surprised when I heard the sermon. All I could think was, I hope to God that was a coincidence. Maybe I should have just said that, I don’t know. Like I said, maybe someone can give me some pointers.
Blessings,
Springs
Springs,
Thanks for that. Your statement above seems to suggest you have more information than we do on the board. I pray that what you experienced was a coincidence too. And, I pray for truth, honesty,reconciliation, unity, peace and love to reign at WHC.
God help us,
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 10/12/2003 2:05 PM (GMT -6) | | MephEternal,
My simple understanding of what being a disciple of Christ entails; that I am a learner or pupil, a person who follows the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
How do I feel about Christian discipleship? I feel it is sensible, toward having a correct moral perception.
Does it involve suffering? I believe so.
What are the issues involved? It implies a devoted allegiance to the teachings of Christ, as are only master.
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 10/12/2003 5:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Springs
Word, I’m not sure why you think you have no business being in this conversation when this board is an internationally open forum, but for my part I welcome your participation.
I’m not sure why you think my comments should have been made in private. Maybe you mean that my tone seemed too personal. I posed my last statement as a question in order to lesson any perception of attack, but evidently I wasn’t successful. I did think about how I could have phrased it differently, perhaps someone here can give me some pointers. I was not trying to cause Dwayne hurt with my remarks. So my apology in that regard is genuine. However, I do not apologize for the gist of the question, so I believe that I used well formed grammar in that instance.
Now you ask, Why do flags go up, what if it was the entire motivation etc. I don’t even know where to begin. Maybe Dwayne could explain it better than I can. It’s about not using the pulpit as a bully pit. See, when a preacher gets up in front of a congregation they have authority. They are speaking for God in a sense. It should never be used to advance personal agenda’s. The people trust their leaders to be on their knees in prayer and truly listen for the message. I have seen horrible abuses perpetrated from pulpits in the Lord’s name. I will not ever be quiet about that, even if it causes division. Like Dwayne said, that is some seriously, not cool stuff. Even though I use a pen name on this board, there are many who read here, that know me. By saying what I did I risked rejection. I risked being ridiculed.
Now, I am acquainted with Dwayne, and I do belive he has a heart for the Lord. That’s why I was so surprised when I heard the sermon. All I could think was, I hope to God that was a coincidence. Maybe I should have just said that, I don’t know. Like I said, maybe someone can give me some pointers.
Blessings,
Springs
Hi Springs. I think I can offer you some reassurance. I am also acquainted with Dwayne. Since we've been roommates for a while, I know he can talk a lot of mess but he takes preaching VERY seriously. In our conversations, he has often expressed grief over abuses in the pulpit and he has never mentioned schemes for getting people to pledge more money to fund drives.
From what I witnessed of Dwayne’s sermon preparation, he spent a lot of time in prayer and in the Word over this message. He spent time studying the writings of people who were examples of what it means to be a disciple of Christ—Martin Luther King Jr. and Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And he listened to all Doc’s sermons on discipleship and reviewed WHC's vision and values, so he could apply the message in a way that is relevant to the people in our church.
Dwayne felt led by the Lord to present the decision of critical significance—the decision to follow Christ. As the lives of MLK Jr., Bonhoeffer, and Christ himself show, this decision may have radical racial, economic, and/or political implications. But from what I know, the sermon was not designed to manipulate people to pledge money to a fund drive.
And, for whoever out there who is rejecting and/or ridiculing Spings, I have some reassurance for you too. I have been from one end of the island of Hispañola to the other with Springs. I have seen her shine in joy and sorrow. Rejecting/ridiculing her on the basis of these posts says more about you than it does about her.
Peace,
Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 10/13/2003 4:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Electra,
Thanks for the kind words. I do take some reassurance from your personal testimony about Meph. The reason you are able to give that is because you have more than an “acquaintance” with him. But that word does define my relationship with him. I was a bit surprised that he wrote that he and I go way back. Certainly I have read him on the board for years, but I can count the number of times I have been in his physical presence on one hand, and those encounters were in a group setting. I have never had the opportunity to interact with him one on one. From his initial postings to those put up currently he has consistently argued against Doc’s theology. He has suggested that some of what he has presented are not his own beliefs but just put up for the sake of discussion. The first few times I met him personally, the main question I had for him was, what DO you believe? IMHO his interaction on the board has confused me more than enlightened me as to who he is, and what he thinks. Without any desire to be offensive, but only in light of speaking the truth, I say, a good portion of his contributions on the board seem to me he talks "a lot of Mess." Again we have to consider this medium, I have been mis-interpreted myself plenty. I’m just saying a cyber-relationship is not enough for me to “know” him personally. I think he is very intelligent, I think he has charisma, and great style when he preaches. But. I don’t attend Woodland because Doc is cute or dynamic, I go because of the Spirit and the theology. It is reassuring to hear that those close to Meph experience him as “on his face” before the Lord, My experience of him as been “in your face” on the board.
Again, thank you for you kind words. And if I have offended anyone with this latest post, I seem to be batting 300 in that area lately, let me just say, that is not my intent.
Blessings,
Springs
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/13/2003 4:50 AM (GMT -6) | | ALLLLLLLLLrighty then…let’s get this discipleship thread back on track. 
Springs and I have had some discussion and things were, I believe, amply clarified between us. All’s considered and forgiven between us. I appreciate Springs’heart for the integrity of the preaching ministry and her concern for my personal spiritual well-being. And I think we are both on the same page now. I don’t want to bog down this potentially great discussion on discipleshipwith any over-taxing, possibly self-justifying discussion about me. All I can say in the end is that I pray that God used that sermon to help Christ’s Body in whatever way God saw fit and that some of my heart came through in it. (Thanks for your little testimony there, Electra. 
Now, let’s get back to the discipleship discussion proper! I can imagine that there are tons of insights that we can get from everyone here. For example, Tim said (emphasis mine):
quote:
My simple understanding of what being a disciple of Christ entails; that I am a learner or pupil, a person who follows the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
How do I feel about Christian discipleship? I feel it is sensible, toward having a correct moral perception.
Does it involve suffering? I believe so.
What are the issues involved? It implies a devoted allegiance to the teachings of Christ, as are only master.
Tim, could you explain further what you mean by the embolded part? I’d like to what you mean exactly.
Blessings to ALL,
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 10/13/2003 4:43 PM (GMT -6) | | <into the ether>
Here's my thoughts on discipleship:
Mark 10:
13 And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them.
14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
15 "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
Anyone who's a parent would know that children are more likely to avoid pain and suffering. I can't believe a child "counts the cost" when they come to Jesus. And yet we're to be like them.
Let's look at Jesus, it appears to me His "counting the cost" didn't come to full fruition until the garden of Gethsemane. I believe as He grew, He became more and more aware of who He was and what His goal was. It culminated at Gethsemane.
His disciples, look at the two steps forward, one step back nature of their discipleship. At the time of Jesus' most dire need they ran away. Yet most died martyr's deaths. The whole trajectory of their stories appears to show a gradual acceptance of what true discipleship is.
Look at relationships. I don't think most people "count the total cost" of a marriage when they enter into that relationship. Couples (should) grow together over time, it's a journey. Same with children. I NEVER counted the cost of having kids. Would I have had them if I had? How many sleepless nights do you reckon on before you have them? How much fretting when they're driving around town after dark? Life is a process. I think discipleship is a process as well.
The twin messages of outrageous love and acceptance, without pre-conditions and count the total cost upfront and fall on your sword, pre-condition seem to be antithical to me.
Jesus said His yoke was light and His burden was easy. I think He sets a LOW threshold. Discipleship is a process that should move us from that point up to what you were talking about.
Matthew 11:
28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
That's the kind of message that lured me in. Rest for your souls.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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