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Newcomer
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Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 2
  		   Posted 3/23/2005 7:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi all!
 
I have a question maybe someone can help me out with: idea
 
I learnt that we become righteous through the cross. And that's the only way.
But when I read Romans the other day it said that Abraham was also righteous, just because he believed in God. That was way before Jesus, right?
How does that work?
And can people today, that believe in God also be righteous beacuse of that?
 
Any ideas confused
 
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Newcomer
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Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 2
  		   Posted 3/26/2005 12:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Never mind. Someone said you were a helpful bunch.
Guess not.
Maybe it was too simple for you. Not enough philosophy.
I'll ask someone else.
 
Won't see you again.
 
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
  		   Posted 3/26/2005 1:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Newcomer
Don't be so impatient. .......... patience we inherit the promises.

You have brought up two of the most exhaustively examined topics in Christiandom. Imputed righteousness and human faith. My view is the general understanding of both have been framed by the reformers for their situational context and have been canonized by the adoption of their theological writings. Both views wrong and human centered instead of Christ centered. Yes, you can still say Lord, Lord, and miss the boat.

I see the righteousness of God staying with God and the english word righteousness in the biblical context could be restated to mean the faithful acts of God in covenant relationship or preaching the righteousness of God would be proclaiming his fulfillment through time of his promises in setting things right.

Faith, not be understood as being a human disposition in general or a human mental fixation but a metaphor for the story of God's faithfulness and wise ability to bring to fulfillment his promises and thereby a trust response in humans as the Spirit reveals this. Faith, 98% of the time pertaining to God or Jesus 2% of the time a human response of trust in the faithful God revealed. Maybe 1 % human. :-)

This is probably not what you wanted to read but try this hat on, eject your concept of what faith is and what righteousness is as being given to man to do with as he will and transfer them both to Jesus and just follow him as you are led by the Spirit of Christ. Of course the Holy Spirit will illuminate the holy scriptures to you as a living word in the church.

Hope you come back.

Peace
Ron

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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
  		   Posted 3/26/2005 2:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

Romans 4 and Galatians 3 make it plain that Abraham was made righteous by faith in God, just as we are.

The Cross of Christ, in and of itself, does not make anyone righteous, or it would make everyone righteous automatically.

Hope this helps,

John

Newcomer said...
Hi all!
 
I have a question maybe someone can help me out with: idea
 
I learnt that we become righteous through the cross. And that's the only way.
But when I read Romans the other day it said that Abraham was also righteous, just because he believed in God. That was way before Jesus, right?
How does that work?
And can people today, that believe in God also be righteous beacuse of that?
 
Any ideas confused
 
Newcomer

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.


JohnE

http://revivaltheology.net

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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
  		   Posted 3/26/2005 3:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I wonder if Abraham's faith in God's promise was simply reckoned as a righteous act. If so, it wouldn't imply that he was justified by faith in a general sense. Paul says that Abraham's faith being reckoned as righteousness bore witness to justification by faith - not that it actually WAS bona fide justification by faith in the full sense.

wjs

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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
  		   Posted 3/27/2005 11:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
jefscott

said...
I wonder if Abraham's faith in God's promise was simply reckoned as a righteous act. If so, it wouldn't imply that he was justified by faith in a general sense. Paul says that Abraham's faith being reckoned as righteousness bore witness to justification by faith - not that it actually WAS bona fide justification by faith in the full sense.

wjs


I have read that before but in Heb 11 when he was called, went out by faith. So he had this obedient trust many years before Gen. 15:6. How many years are we talking about now as him being in relationship with God, from Ur of the Chaldees, and then it is written in the famous passage in Gen 15:6 Abraham believed God, I take that as "remained steadfast" and the counted to him as righteousness, righteousness as pertaining to man, as the status of being a member of the covenant. I no longer see Gen 15:6 as it is usually used as an example of a one time act of expressing confidence in God and faith as being understood as being a substitute for moral goodness. In my reading now I see the meaning of faith pertaining to man more of a steadfast loyalty than a one time human act that causes God to grant something. That is why I have changed my general reading of the word faith to mean something like a code for God's or Jesus's faithfulness except where it is grammatically undeniable it is talking about faith in,which most of the time is being place by the translator because the original usually has pistis Christou or pistis ect. and the context calls for understanding whether it is subjective or objective genitive. Since the whole story is about the grace of God I prefer to opt for God doing the act. I also read justification by faith as being vindicated by the faithfulness of God. I would restate what you said to "Paul says Abraham's sign of loyalty was all that was required to be a full covenant member and as such gives witness to the faithful covenant keeping God who will in the end fully vindicate Abraham" I think if we do our best to understand the Hebrew understandings of some of these words like believe, faith, righteousness in a story of God's faithfulness and then reread the letters in the new testament holding some of these hebrew concepts to me reveals that what I thought was plain meant something else entirely.

Peace
Ron
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
  		   Posted 3/28/2005 1:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oops....I should've also made it clear that I find the scriptural view of faith to be a lifestyle commitment rather than a one-time act of faith. Sorry 'bout that.

Blessings,

John

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.


JohnE

http://revivaltheology.net

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