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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/28/2005 8:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | Could someone give me the universalist response to the following scriptures (if we went over this, i missed it, sorry):
Luke 12:4 "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! 6 "Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 "Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. 8 "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; 9 but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angles of God. 10 "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.
Matthew 25:42 Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour. 45 "Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom his master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their allowance of food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put that one in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked slave says to himself, "My master is delayed,' 49 and he begins to beat his fellow slaves, and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour that he does not know. 51 He will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
thanx | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/28/2005 9:22 AM (GMT -6) | | I think, Selah, that these kinds of verses (indeed, to a universalist, all scriptures) speak not of eternal destiny but of pre-mortem and the judgement that follows post-mortem. The universalists would say that Luke 12 does not address the duration of time spent in hell, and that the blaspheming of the Spirit would be something committed pre- not post-mortem; the after-life being the time when, after judgement, the person can be forgiven (my readings so far do not express how this happens, only that it is God's will that it happen). And finally, the same interpretation for Matthew 25; it is while the people are alive that they are told there is judgement to follow for those who will not (now) bow the knee.
The element of time and duration not being expressed with regard to the judgement of sinners is the crux for universalism, as I read it; however, I have not yet covered those juicy parts where it would seem the language does cover duration and that for eternity. We shall see!
Starkman
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/28/2005 1:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Starkman, that's pretty much what I thought. I guess I don't have as
much problem with the post-mortem idea...as I do with the weird/strong
language "If he denies me, I will deny him" and "I will cut him to pieces.."
That kind of thing.
Wow. What IS up with that Jesus? | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/28/2005 10:20 PM (GMT -6) | | 
oops, I must have lost the text on this one...ha. Ok, Lemme say this... even if we recognize the hyperbolic language, what specifically should we conclude? (In other words "what's the point?" ) Also, when Jesus says "If you deny me...I will deny you"
doesn't that seem pretty clear? Surely He's not using hyperbole in that statement. Any idea what it means when Jesus denies you before the angels of God?
~me either!
love
selah
1 Corinthians 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.Post Edited (Selah) : 4/5/2005 2:08:48 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 4/10/2005 4:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey
I think the whole question/issue of rewards is quite key here. The way I understand scriptures is that Jesus will return, the dead in Christ will be raised to life (not everyone else, and not the backslidden Christians) and will reign with Christ for 1000years (approx. - basically go round the universe and sort everything out. This is where the rewards Jesus talks about will be dished out). Then all the rest of the dead will be raised to life and then judged before the Great White Throne. Out of thus judgement, some will be saved, and some will perish in hell. Then we go into the new heavens and the new earth.
I'm sure that'll come up with lots of questions/comments...
But I think it has bearing on the universalism question. Perhaps what people are seeing is that some Christians/people will suffer loss when Jesus returns. They will be thrown into outer darkness, there'll be weeping & gnashing of teeth etc, but they will still be ok at the general resurrection (they will still have a place in glory). But there are those who are adamant that they don't want Jesus, and so they get what they've in a sense chosen - destruction.
So maybe there are 3 classes?
1) The 'overcoming Christian' who will reign with Christ and enjoy the 'well done' of Jesus.
2) The half-hearted Christian, who will suffer loss when Jesus returns but will eventually enter glory (although as through fire, i.e. not taking anything with them).
3) The hardened rebellious wicked person, who doesn't want to be in the New Creation so instead gets destroyed.
How about it? It seems to satisfy my problems with the uninversalism stuff... "what, Hitler getting saved eventually?" If he does, then why bother being a Christian at all! If God's gonna 'force' me to love him in the end, then there's not really a choice to reject God.
Anyway, that's just my thoughts.
love
Timlings
ps. In answering the original post, the Matt 25:51 does look like they get sent to a bad place, but not destroyed, i.e. eventually get saved. That would make sense with the above suggestion, as well as with universalism. | | Back to Top | | |
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