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bryan mccarthy
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Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 5/5/2005 3:40 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hello All,
We were discussing this passage in class and it appeared that the overwhelming majority of the people felt that this was obviously referring to Christ, but I didn't really see it. I mean, i suppose it's a possibility, but it seems in no way definite. I sorta think it's talking about Isaiah. Here's my argument:
1st, it's between oracles. Chapter 48 ends with a "says the lord," referring to what has been said at the end of that chapter. Verse 5 in chapter 49 begins with another "Thus says the Lord," indicating (usually) a new oracle. In between we have a little chunk that is unattributed. So, in my mind, it's not clear that it's referring to Jesus. It could be isaiah.
2nd, verse 4 says that the speaker feels his ministry has been in vain. Jesus experienced many frustrations, but even in the garden of Gethsemene when he was the most negative about what he had to do, he never said anything about his ministry being worthless or in vain. Just the opposite, he was always trying to explain to Peter and others that his death was not defeat, but accomplished more than they could currently understand.
By contrast, this unfruitful ministry is exactly what God told Isaiah he would experience in chapter 6.
Against my reading of it: the fact that verse 3 calls the individual in question "servant," a tag that is, in other places, inlcuding verse 5 at the start of the next oracle, given to the Lord.
i think, but am not sure that sometimes, the name servant is given to Israel as a nation as well, so it seems to me that it could be used of Israel, Jesus, or even Isaiah (he was a servant wasn't he?), at different times in this or other books. Which is being talked about would then be determined by context. Here it's tough to tell, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't be Isaiah. God would be glorified in him as well (v.3), right?
Thoughts?
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul TillichPost Edited (bryan mccarthy) : 5/6/2005 7:11:10 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 5/5/2005 4:23 PM (GMT -6) | | |
I will side with Christ the Messiah as the servant, Bryan.
Matthew Henry: "The great Author of redemption shows the authority for his work. The sword of his word slays the lusts of his people, and all at enmity with them. His sharp arrows wound the conscience; but all these wounds will be healed, when the sinner prays to him for mercy. But even the Redeemer, who spake as never man spake in his personal ministry, often seemed to labour in vain. And if Jacob will not be brought back to God, and Israel will not be gathered, still Christ will be glorious. This promise is in part fulfilled in the calling of the Gentiles. Men perish in darkness. But Christ enlightens men, and so makes them holy and happy."
Adam Clarke: And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword "And he hath made my mouth a sharp sword"— "The servant of God, who speaks in the former part of this chapter, must be the Messiah. If any part of this character can in any sense belong to the prophet, yet in some parts it must belong exclusively to Christ; and in all parts to him in a much fuller and more proper sense. Isaiah’s mission was to the Jews, not to the distant nations, to whom the speaker in this place addresses himself. "He hath made my mouth a sharp sword;" "to reprove the wicked, and to denounce unto them punishment," says Jarchi, understanding it of Isaiah. But how much better does it suit him who is represented as having "a sharp two-edged sword going out of his mouth," Revelation 1:16; who is himself the Word of God; which word is "quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart;" Hebrews 4:12. This mighty Agent and Instrument of God, "long laid up in store with him, and sealed up among his treasures," is at last revealed and produced by his power, and under his protection, to execute his great and holy purposes. He is compared to a polished shaft stored in his quiver for use in his due time. The polished shaft denotes the same efficacious word which is before represented by the sharp sword. The doctrine of the Gospel pierced the hearts of its hearers, "bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." The metaphor of the sword and the arrow, applied to powerful speech, is bold, yet just. It has been employed by the most ingenious heathen writers, if with equal elegance, not with equal force. It is said of Pericles by Aristophanes, (see Cicero, Epist. ad Atticum, 12:6):—"
Hope that helps,
Mark Post Edited (sparknheart) : 5/5/2005 4:30:04 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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bryan mccarthy
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Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 5/6/2005 2:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Mark,
this does help some. I do see that these things in v.1-3 apply in a much fuller sense to Christ than Isaiah, particularly the servant in whom God will be glorified (v.3) and now, becuz of what you've posted, the sword aspect (v.2). however, it's very difficult for me to see why clarke would say that v.4 (included in "all parts") would apply to christ in a much fuller sense. i was happy that henry at least addressed this issue, becuz like ATW, this verse is really the only hang-up for me, but i think henry did not adequately address it. i don't see Jesus saying this about his mininstry. he seemed to have a much broader perspective than this and was always aware that his ministry was accomplishing its purpose, even in his most frustrated, frail, and "human" moments.
i'm actually hoping to be proved wrong on this one, but i don't want to give up before i feel this issue of v.4 has been as batted around more. however, your post has made me see that if i could get over the v.4 problems i'm having, the passage as a whole is more sublime and full when read as referring to and spoken by the messiah. thanks for your comments so far.
bryan | | Back to Top | | |
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bryan mccarthy
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Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 5/6/2005 2:53 AM (GMT -6) | | ATW,
yeah, i'm with ya homie. see above in my response to mark.
bry | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 5/6/2005 2:58 PM (GMT -6) | |
bryan mccarthy said...
Mark,
this does help some. I do see that these things in v.1-3 apply in a much fuller sense to Christ than Isaiah, particularly the servant in whom God will be glorified (v.3) and now, becuz of what you've posted, the sword aspect (v.2). however, it's very difficult for me to see why clarke would say that v.4 (included in "all parts") would apply to christ in a much fuller sense. i was happy that henry at least addressed this issue, becuz like ATW, this verse is really the only hang-up for me, but i think henry did not adequately address it. i don't see Jesus saying this about his ministry. he seemed to have a much broader perspective than this and was always aware that his ministry was accomplishing its purpose, even in his most frustrated, frail, and "human" moments.
i'm actually hoping to be proved wrong on this one, but i don't want to give up before i feel this issue of v.4 has been as batted around more. however, your post has made me see that if i could get over the v.4 problems i'm having, the passage as a whole is more sublime and full when read as referring to and spoken by the messiah. thanks for your comments so far.
bryan
Hello Bryan,
The Jews and even the Disciples waited with anticipation for the Messiah to come and bring redemption not only to man, but to restore “all nations” and the entire universe to its original state of paradise. The lack of this happing is a main reason the Jews came to reject Jesus as the Messiah. Perhaps Jesus ministry was meant to have a broader perspective during his lifetime. Maybe the verse speaks of his vain attempts to reach the High Priest, the masses and all nations that would follow them. I’m going out on a limb here, but maybe there was a plan “A”, one were the Son of Man would have been accepted instead of plan “B” where he was crucified. After all, in the eleventh hour in the garden, he prayed about having to drink from the cup. Is not the true goal of God to have all nations bow down and glorify Him?
Well ya’ got me, good question. We need the big knockers on this one, the graduates. Calling all cars, Tom, Laika, Jeff, Scott, Stark, Meph, JohnE', Brandon, Alan, Reader, Lassie, Pope John Paul II...everyone. 
Go call superman, call Lois Lane…. go call Tarzan, and go call Jane.
Blessings,
Mark
Isaiah 49:4 (NRSV)
"But I said, "I have labored in vain,
I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity;
yet surely my cause is with the Lord,
and my reward with my God."
49:1-7 Before the servant, the Messiah, was born, God had chosen him to bring the light of the gospel (the message of salvation) to the world (see Acts 13:47). Christ offered salvation to all nations, and his apostles began the missionary movement to take this gospel to the ends of the earth. Missionary work today continues Jesus’ Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), taking the light of the gospel to all nations.
Post Edited (sparknheart) : 5/6/2005 3:45:58 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/6/2005 3:33 PM (GMT -6) | |
Selah said...ya because the women can't answer such a tough guy question huh mark? 
I was not done, Sis. Check it out! Besides, I did not say the really big knockers hitters. 
P.S. I also said "graduates" and "everyone". So, that excludes many and includes all. Tricky huh,  so play ball.
Post Edited (sparknheart) : 5/8/2005 1:00:54 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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AtTheWell
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Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 133
| Posted 5/6/2005 3:53 PM (GMT -6) | |
sparknheart said...
Selah said...ya because the women can't answer such a tough guy question huh mark?
I was not done, Sis. Check it out! Besides, I did not say the really big knockers.
P.S. I also said "graduates" and "everyone". So, that excludes many and includes all. Tricky huh,  Umm, excuse me, anyone have a shovel handy?
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 5/6/2005 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/7/2005 12:14 AM (GMT -6) | |
sparknheart said...
bryan mccarthy said...
what's everybody freakin' out for. he said "go call lois lane and jane?" women, yeah? Hey now... lets not forget the orginal Lassie!
Lassie was actually played by a Laddie, a male dog.
Laika knows dogs.
Looks like she/he is holding the kid down....
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/7/2005 1:11 AM (GMT -6) | |
Laika said... Lassie was actually played by a Laddie, a male dog.
Male Lassie? I guess I'm talking about the original short story, the novel. Hmm... maybe it was Lassie's stunt double, anyways Lassie was a girl! Wasn't she? Male dog heck, what are ya tring to do anyways, screw little Jeff's head up by confusing the kid? Next thing we know, you'll have little Jeffery singing "we are family" with Sponge Bob. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 5/8/2005 1:03:07 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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bryan mccarthy
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 5/7/2005 4:06 AM (GMT -6) | | All,
uh, okay...never in my wildest dreams did i think weird photos that show what happens when you ingore the biblical mandate about bestiality to show up on a thread about ISA 49.1-4, but okay. let's see if we can get back on track.
Laika, you're on mark's list of big guns...can you give us a hand on this one?
John: My God, My God...
bryan: i know that this Jesus quoted this psalm and that the Davidic source of it was not originally understood as being "messianic" per se. so i might assume that your implication is that not all passages which fit the messiah or even were quoted by him were originally intended to refer to him (even though, as far as I know, v. 1-4 here were not quoted by any NT document). however, this is really just a guess. you could have just been having a bum day and were referring to your own life. would you elaborate on your response?
ATW,
yes, you're right about how many times Mark edited. I hadn't thought about it. and actually, if you compare the times he edited both of his posts with selah's, it presents kind of an interesting picture. 
anybody else got any backfeed [insert picture of a back with a big ravenous mouth and no other facial features feeding it self with backwards turned arms here] on ISA 49.1-4?
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul TillichPost Edited (bryan mccarthy) : 5/7/2005 4:11:13 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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AtTheWell
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 133
| Posted 5/7/2005 2:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Bryan,
I'm curious about your statement....
i'm actually hoping to be proved wrong on this one, but i don't want to give up before i feel this issue of v.4 has been as batted around more. however, your post has made me see that if i could get over the v.4 problems i'm having, the passage as a whole is more sublime and full when read as referring to and spoken by the messiah.
does this effect your understanding of, or relationship with Christ?
Also:
the overwhelming majority of the people felt that this was obviously referring to Christ
That is what confused me... just reading vv.1-4, leaving out any presupposition about it, I too didn't have an 'obviously this is' reaction....
Does this effect your desire to understand this?
And TGB,
love your point of view on this, as usual. Remind self: Fulfilled in prophecy is not the same as the fortune-teller was right. 
Peace, ATW Post Edited (AtTheWell) : 5/7/2005 2:17:45 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/8/2005 1:00 PM (GMT -6) | |
Selah said...ya because the women can't answer such a tough guy question huh mark?
All joking tossed far aside, I fully embrace the wisdom woman bring to the table. With today being Mothers day, I offer a special prayer to all women at the well of the Lord’s fountain of life. May their thirst be quenched with the living waters that only God can fill? May gifts of Heavenly blessings shower down on all mothers today and all their days to come.
Let a special sprinkle land on the Saint Teresa’s of the world,
Mark
 "Come to me, all you that are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
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AtTheWell
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| Posted 5/8/2005 9:08 PM (GMT -6) | |
bryan mccarthy said...ATW, i was gonna answer your question twice, for the two thing i think you might be asking, but then i thought it just be better to ask for clarification before i answer. the first thing you quoted me on is a big paragraph. was the part that made you curious the fact that i said i was hoping to be proved wrong or that i felt that it would be more sublime/full if read as referring to christ? and then when you said: That is what confused me... just reading vv.1-4, leaving out any presupposition about it, I too didn't have an 'obviously this is' reaction.... Does this effect your desire to understand this? bryan: i tool you to mean does the fact that everyone seems to believe this affect my desire to understand the passage in general or to be proved wrong, as i put it. do i have this right? bryan
Question #1: ummm, your guess is as good as mine as to exactly what I was referring to at that moment.  It all made sense in my head though. Question #2: you have this right-- and, by the way, I was just curious, no pressure
Peace,
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AtTheWell
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Total Posts : 133
| Posted 5/8/2005 9:13 PM (GMT -6) | |
sparknheart said...
Selah said...ya because the women can't answer such a tough guy question huh mark?
All joking tossed far aside, I fully embrace the wisdom woman bring to the table. With today being Mothers day, I offer a special prayer to all women at the well of the Lord’s fountain of life. May their thirst be quenched with the living waters that only God can fill? May gifts of Heavenly blessings shower down on all mothers today and all their days to come.
Let a special sprinkle land on the Saint Teresa’s of the world,
Mark
AWWWW. Thanks spark!  That's really nice. Blessings upon you.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 5/9/2005 10:14 AM (GMT -6) | | |
bryan mccarthy said...
John: My God, My God...
bryan: i know that this Jesus quoted this psalm and that the Davidic source of it was not originally understood as being "messianic" per se. so i might assume that your implication is that not all passages which fit the messiah or even were quoted by him were originally intended to refer to him (even though, as far as I know, v. 1-4 here were not quoted by any NT document). however, this is really just a guess. you could have just been having a bum day and were referring to your own life.
Ha! Sorry for being so cryptic. Nope, not any more God-forsaken than any other day of my life.
would you elaborate on your response?
The reason I posted that was because it seems to me that in this case Jesus quoted something from the OT that was definitely NOT true of himself, though apparently he subjectively FELT forsaken by God. My thought was, "Could this be the case with regard to the Isaiah passage too?"
Also in this line of rather defeatist-sounding thought, why would Jesus ask, "When the Son of Man returns will he find faith on the earth?"
John
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
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