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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
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   Posted 4/30/2005 4:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok....so this bit in 1 Peter 3 about the spirits in prison and stuff.

For me, it's quite easy to pass over the early chapters of Genesis, including the flood as not strictly historical, I don't think that was their original intention and therefore don't read them as such - this is the way Wenham approaches them in the commentary I have, and I'm happy with that.

I'm a little confused, however as to what to do with 1 Peter 3 - what does all this stuff mean? Is the author really making a historical/factual point or is this just an illustration that he's using? And if the former, does that not leave me and my view of scripture somewhat screwed?

It's also unclear what on earth Peter's going on about to me anyway, there seem to be hints that he's alluding to understandings of Genesis found in apocryphal writings which I'm not sure are entirely correct.
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markporter
Fire over Oxford




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   Posted 4/30/2005 5:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
hmm, and there's also 2 Peter 2:4
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Similitude
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   Posted 4/30/2005 5:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mark: I'm a little confused, however as to what to do with 1 Peter 3 - what does all this stuff mean? Is the author really making a historical/factual point or is this just an illustration that he's using? And if the former, does that not leave me and my view of scripture somewhat screwed?

Jeff: Doc once told me that he thought it was more plausible to believe there really was a local flood. The point you are raising is probably one of the very reasons he thinks that way.


wjs

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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
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   Posted 4/30/2005 5:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ooh....and there's still the jude bit as well. grrr.
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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 4/30/2005 5:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
jefscott said...
Mark: I'm a little confused, however as to what to do with 1 Peter 3 - what does all this stuff mean? Is the author really making a historical/factual point or is this just an illustration that he's using? And if the former, does that not leave me and my view of scripture somewhat screwed?

Jeff: Doc once told me that he thought it was more plausible to believe there really was a local flood. The point you are raising is probably one of the very reasons he thinks that way.


Hmm, interesting, yes. See, it's not just the flood I have issues with though, it's all the stuff about these sons of God too, if they are taken as angelic beings then that looks like something mythological in this case to me (or if they weren't and peter understood them that way due to later traditions), if they're not, then I have less problems to deal with. I'm tempted to say at the moment 'I don't know what on earth he's saying, maybe it's historical, but I'm quite happy if it's just a use of myth to make some higher kind of point'

Post Edited (markporter) : 4/30/2005 6:10:37 PM (GMT-5)

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John1721
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   Posted 4/30/2005 7:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Word:
 
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
 
Amen!
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PhilTheThrill
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   Posted 5/9/2005 5:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mark -

You said: "See, it's not just the flood I have issues with though, it's all the stuff about these sons of God too, if they are taken as angelic beings then that looks like something mythological in this case to me (or if they weren't and peter understood them that way due to later traditions), "

It is my belief that the reason the greeks/romans/etc had their awesome pantheon of gods and demons is because of this very thing. The Bible tells us that the Nephilim were heroes of old and men of reknown, so I believe that other religions are pointing back to these beings.

If the Bible is the ultimate truth, then I have no problem with other religions mimicking the truth, borrowing from the truth, accidentally having truth, or reflecting some of the truth. Sometimes, even those crazy pagans got some things right. :-)

I don't believe the Bible is 100% literal, but I'm okay with the Nephilim. It explains alot.

The creepy part is that Nephilim are described as existing in those days, "and also after them"...


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Tom
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   Posted 5/9/2005 7:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Is there a problem with the Flood?

Tom


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Similitude
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   Posted 5/9/2005 10:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom, Mark originally said,

"For me, it's quite easy to pass over the early chapters of Genesis, including the flood as not strictly historical, I don't think that was their original intention and therefore don't read them as such - this is the way Wenham approaches them in the commentary I have, and I'm happy with that."

Is that what you're asking? If the flood is non-historical, it makes the passage about the spirits that were disobedient in Noah's day seem non-historical, too. And so forth. I would think both (the flood and the imprisonment of angels) are historical or both are non-historical.


wjs

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scott_jorgenson
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Total Posts : 271
 
   Posted 5/10/2005 4:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
1 Peter 3:18-22 is a puzzling passage, but one thing seems pretty clear to me.  The author's basic point - not just within the overall context and theme of 1 Peter, but within 3:18-22 itself - is that Jesus is the Messiah who makes us right with God.  The stuff in 3:18-22 about preaching to spirits in prison (who are the spirits? is this postmortem evangelism? etc) and the flood (is it necessarily being taught as historical, and if so, global or local?) and baptism (is it necessary for salvation?) is literary connecting material.  It is literary connecting material in two ways:
  • It is connecting material between verses 18 and 22 - ie, connecting Jesus' resurrection with the action of the Holy Spirit, and that with the preaching to spirits in prison, and that to the flood, and that to the waters of baptism, and that to salvation, and that to Jesus' resurrection again.  Notice how the literary connections go full circle, from Jesus' resurrection and back to his resurrection again.  It looks like a literary device whose elaboration serves to underscore the basic point, which, as said above, is that Jesus is the Messiah who bridges the gap between God and man.

 

  • It is connecting material between the story and role of Jesus, and the ancient traditions of the Hebrew heritage.  Jesus is literarily connected by the author to the flood, in that the deliverance of Noah's family to safety through the waters of the flood story, is interpreted by the author to symbolize how Jesus delivers us to salvation through the waters of baptism.  Thus the material serves to connect the new Christian tradition of Jesus and baptism with the old Hebrew traditions, and thereby demonstrate the continuity, indeed culmination, of the old with the new (such continuity and culmination being very important to legitimize the new Christian faith with a Jewish audience).  So this is another literary device, very similar to how Matthew's gospel uses Old Testament citations (ie as analogical demonstration of how the new story of Christ recaps and fills-full the patterns and types of the long-accepted old story).

Because of this, I think it is (at risk of using too strong a word) "hopeless" to parse the words of 1 Peter 3:19-21 too closely and too matter-of-factly, whether as fodder with which to support views about the flood, about the Nephilim, about postmortem evangelism, about the necessity of physical baptism to salvation (ie one is not saved unless one has been baptized), or etc.  (All of which are purposes for which 1 Peter 3:18-22 has been mis-appropriated, in my opinion.)  After all, just because Matthew cites Hosea (11:1, "Out of Egypt I called my son") and claims Jesus fulfilled it, we wouldn't interpret this matter-of-factly to mean that Matthew is claiming Hosea's passage was a grammatical prediction of Jesus (because read in context, Hosea 11:1 quite clearly means something else entirely, grammatically).  We would have to seek a less-literal meaning instead, looking for how Matthew's use of Hosea would have been intended in the culture and literary conventions of the time.  Same here.

Scott

 

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Similitude
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   Posted 6/20/2005 4:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Scott: The stuff in 3:18-22 about preaching to spirits in prison (who are the spirits? is this postmortem evangelism? etc) and the flood (is it necessarily being taught as historical, and if so, global or local?) and baptism (is it necessary for salvation?) is literary connecting material. It is literary connecting material ...

...Because of this, I think it is (at risk of using too strong a word) "hopeless" to parse the words of 1 Peter 3:19-21 too closely and too matter-of-factly, whether as fodder with which to support views about the flood, about the Nephilim, about postmortem evangelism, about the necessity of physical baptism to salvation (ie one is not saved unless one has been baptized), or etc.

Jeff: Since I brought Doc into this discussion, I would like to clarify a bit. I know of no one that would use that passage as "fodder with which to support views about the flood," etc. Rather, Peter and the original audience most probably already believed or disbelieved in the historicity of those accounts. The literary connecting role you speak of works either way.

With respect to Doc, he said his views were based on what he deemed as most plausible. That, I suspect, means he has weighed all of the passages he deems relevant and came to his conclusion that way. I doubt seriously he would argue that Peter proves the historicity of Genesis. I hope I was not understood as intending such a characterization of him and his view.


wjs

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