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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > The Bible Does Not Forbid Polygamy | Forum Quick Jump
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 |  bryan mccarthy Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005 Total Posts : 179 | Posted 5/13/2005 9:25 PM (GMT -6) |   | spark: Mark or Spark but please, not Stark!
bryan: AHH!!! I apologize! man, there just too many of you fricken people!
Spark: "Instant Browines!" haha
bryan: yeah, i thought you'd like that.
Spark: What Brownies are you on!
bryan: that's awesome! look, man. i know this is a tough pill (or is it phil?) to swallow, but really, man. the teaching against polygamy just isn't there. even if you can dig it out of somewhere (the attempts of which i find unconvincing and text-stretchy so far with everyone who tries), the scriptures don't explicitly teach it and so my question is, if it's such a havoc-wreaker as you argue, why does the scripture not address it EXPLICITLY? my own answer is becuz it's not the polygamy that's the problem, but the way the men are treating their multiple wives and the way the wives are treating each other. if the man were to affirm their equal worth, treat both with equal love (good luck with that, but it's not impossible any more than doing this with kids, something everyone struggles with as well), it'd be okay i think (once again, ideally in a culture where marriage works a bit differently than in our own culture). but here's a better question: let's say it is true that polygamy is morally-neutral. are you willing to explore this possibility or is it so far outside of what you're used to thinking that you can't imagine it? that is, can you handle the truth?
just so you know, i didn't think this way until i researched it. it started off as a joke. i had a gag assignment (or maybe it was just intended to stretch me by listening to opposing views) for class where i would argue for the biblicality (or at least the non-antibiblicality) of polygamy. i ended up actually adopting the view becuz the polygamists were way more faithful to the bible than everyone i had ever heard talking about this from the monogamy-only angle. what do you think, Shark?
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul TillichPost Edited (bryan mccarthy) : 5/13/2005 9:29:18 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
   |  Sahid Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004 Total Posts : 2013 | Posted 5/14/2005 3:55 AM (GMT -6) |   | Is there even a good non-situational case for monogamy? Adam and Eve did it (at least for a while) because humanity needed multiplying. From what Paul says, apart from pre-Christian commitments, specific callings from God, and distracting lust, it seems like singleness is God's ideal, not monogamy! How does monogamy fit within "love your neighbor?" It looks to me that singleness is the only thing that fits well. It doesn't say, "Love your neighbor as yourself, but not like you love your spouse." Physically, Jesus was most likely single. In another sense he will be married to the entire church. Either way, that's not really monogamy. Of course, we don't have to imitate everything about Jesus, like his caucasian complexion or his long, brown, wavy hair. Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
  |  JEE Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2004 Total Posts : 1466 | Posted 5/14/2005 3:10 PM (GMT -6) |   | Loving God supremely and one's neighbor equitably means one seeks the highest good of ALL, not that one has to be perpetually concerned about each and every person in the world, just that they must seek to have a benevolent MOTIVE towards all.
If people didn't procreate, God's purpose in creating mankind would be thwarted (Gen. 1). If people didn't commit to stable family relationships, the raising of children (and consequently culture itself) would inevitably degenerate into chaos.
Marriage is not inconsistent with a spirit of benevolence towards all, for benevolence towards all does not require treating everyone as THEY wish, but as one would have oneself treated (fairly, benevolently, graciously, etc.)
Paul never said marriage was somehow less honorable, just that celibacy would be a better path to take "in light of the current distress." But for those who could not contain themselves, it would be better to marry than to burn with passion. May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
http://www.revivaltheology.cjb.net | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Sahid Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004 Total Posts : 2013 | Posted 5/17/2005 3:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
First, if one person is married and one is single and that's all we know about them, there is no way to judge who is more holy or whatever. Second, it's not my place to judge anyway.
That being said, it seems that there are only three situations where marriage is preferable to singleness if we limit our sources to the Bible. Unless one was married before conversion, specifically called to do so, or under extreme temptation to lust it seems to me that the default position is singleness. Apart from these situations, it is hard to make a case for marriage at all, much more so with monogamy. I admit there are passages that encourage people to settle down, have a good life, get married. But I would argue that these instructions are just as culture-bound as instruction on hair-length. For people who associate marriage with other good things like security, happiness, and peace, it makes sense to speak that way.
"i would say you learn a new level of neighbor love when your put in the situation of marriage, which requires it."
I say it's not necessarily so. That so many marriages (even "Christian" ones) are disfunctional proves that marriage does not require love. I suppose this is another situation where marriage is preferable: when it is the best means of learning a new level of love. Maybe even a majority fits in this category. But I don't think a very strong Biblical case can be made for this. And without a source like the Bible, it's hard to measure things like love.
"bryan: you really think he was caucasian and long wavy brown-haired or are you just making fun of the fact that we depict him thus? either way, it was a good joke. :D"
I was dead serious. He spoke the King's English and had blue eyes too. And if you looked closely you could see a halo. It's all there in the Bible.
"If people didn't procreate, God's purpose in creating mankind would be thwarted (Gen. 1). If people didn't commit to stable family relationships, the raising of children (and consequently culture itself) would inevitably degenerate into chaos."
There are Christian ethicists who would argue against the categorical imperative. Yoder was one. There is no danger of God's purpose in procreation being twarted. The gate is narrow, and if being a Christian meant no sex, it would get a lot narrower. The best course of action is not always one that can be universalized.
My case is simply that given no extenuating circumstances the Christian should be content with singleness. Marriage is not necessarily worse, but it certainly can be. Many Christians marry to find love or security or out of guilt or fear. For these people marriage is worse. Another person can never fulfill one's need for love or security nor can another bear the responsibility of calming one's guilt or fear. I think Paul's instruction is still valid today. If you're not previously obligated, told to do otherwise by God, or overly distracted by lust, it's best to stay single. Things are just easier that way. (Granted, the second exception is not Paul's, but I'm sure he'd concede the point.) However, in many churches, needy members are not provided for. You'd better have insurance, because you certainly can't rely on the church for much help. In some cases I can see marriage as the appropriate choice, because the church has forgotten to be a family, and people need families. Still this is a situation that shouldn't be taken for granted. For a church to really be a church resouces and love should be shared to the point that marriage is largely superfluous.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - StavesacrePost Edited (Sahid) : 5/17/2005 3:21:43 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
   |  PhilTheThrill Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004 Total Posts : 95 | Posted 5/18/2005 3:42 PM (GMT -6) |   | Well Adam and Eve's relationship is used as a model for marriage elsewhere in the Bible. In fact God himself seems to wed them in Genesis, does he not?
If the very first two people on earth were married by God, I think you can at least make the case that it has it's merits!  | | Back to Top | | |
  |  PhilTheThrill Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004 Total Posts : 95 | Posted 5/18/2005 5:54 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Sahid said...Where are Adam and Eve used as a model for marriage? And why do you say God seems to wed them? When did he do that? Where does the Bible say that Adam and Eve were the first two people on earth?
The Bible said in Genesis...
2:20 So the man named all the animals, the birds of the air, and the living creatures of the field, but for Adam no companion who corresponded to him was found. 2:21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep;and while he was asleep, he took part of the man’s side and closed up the place with flesh. 2:22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the part he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 2:23 Then the man said,
“This one at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
this one will be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and unites with his wife, and they become a new family. 2:25 The man and his wife were both naked, but they were not ashamed.
The Bible Also said in Mark...
10:1 Then Jesus left that place and went to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan River. Again crowds gathered to him, and as was his custom, he again taught them. 10:2 Then some Pharisees came, and to test him they asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” 10:3 He answered them,“What did Moses command you?” 10:4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her.” 10:5 But Jesus said to them, “He wrote this commandment for you because of your hard hearts. 10:6 But from the beginning of creation he made them male and female. 10:7 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, 10:8 and the two will become one flesh.So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 10:9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
Furthermore, the Bible states in Ephesians... 5:28 In the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 5:29 For no one has ever hated his own body but he feeds it and takes care of it, just as Christ also does the church, 5:30 for we are members of his body.5:31 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh
Finally, 1 Corinthians said... 10:45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living person;
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