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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/13/2005 7:57 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Hello Jo-Anne,
Much of the tradtional approach to "wisdom" is with the preconceived idea that "because Jesus is called the wisdom of God, therefore wisdom in Proverbs must be Jesus," and similar types of comparisons are made between wisdom and the Spirit. This, however, really shows our lack of appreciation for a more broader (Jewish), a less Christianized, and a more robust concept of wisdom in the Old Testament.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge;
fools despise wisdom and instruction (Prov 1:7 ESV).
For the Jew, wisdom was not information about things; it was deeper insight for relating to God...relating to God. Relationship: between God and man and between man and man in view of relationship before God. When Solomon is said to have been the wisest of men, his wisdom was not in philosophy, ethics or fields of these kinds. Rather, he possessed an abundance of that kind of wisdom that makes clearer the relationship that exists between God and man and between man and man. He possessed that much more understanding of the "things of God." His lament in Ecclesiastes is not about how philosophy and logic just don't cut it; instead, he is stating something about the size of the gap that exists between the world's ways and God's ways. This is what wisdom in scripture is all about. Solomon understood this well enough to have penned this great book.
When you're reading Proverbs—namely those passages about wisdom—let the thinking of the time rise out of the passages and speak for itself without all the Christian baggage that we bring to it. When you move into the New Testament and see Paul's teaching about wisdom, yes, there will be the correlations between Christ and wisdom and the Spirit and wisdom, but these correlations are not to equate wisdom with Christ or the Spirit, but to make a statement about where wisdom is found in its fullest expression and culmination between God and man: through Christ, by the Spirit. Therefore, one who has more understanding about what it means to walk in relationship with God (through Christ, by the Spirit) exhibits a greater knowledge of biblical wisdom.
Hope this helps,
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us?Post Edited (Starkman) : 5/14/2005 3:10:09 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/16/2005 3:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Bear with me. So, Stark, are you saying that wisdom comes in relating to the Father, in understanding how to relate to the Father, through the Spirit. "Those who worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit and in truth." Is this where we find wisdom? In worshiping Him in Spirit and in truth? I have found wisdom not in understanding how to study, or in any formulaic expression of faith, but in relationship--to Him first, and then with others. The Word says that wisdom is available for all who ask; it makes it sound like it is really waiting for us, all we have to do is grab hold of it. As Proverbs 8 says (in the Message), wisdom stands at the busiest intersection, her voice readily heard above the din of all other noises---if---we listen.
I still feel as though wisdom and the Spirit are one and the same. Maybe I'm still missing something. How many people seek the will of God, agonize over it, wonder if they are in it, when all they really need to do is relate to Him, and trust, because if you are relating to the Father, you'll have the wisdom of the Spirit---like being tapped into a power source; it's there for all of us ...
It's late and I'm rambling, and because I have a back injury, I can't spent much time here, but I appreciate your thoughts on wisdom. Thank you for sharing them with me.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/16/2005 1:34 PM (GMT -6) | |
SoulPurpose said...Bear with me. So, Stark, are you saying that wisdom comes in relating to the Father, in understanding how to relate to the Father, through the Spirit. "Those who worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit and in truth." Is this where we find wisdom? In worshiping Him in Spirit and in truth? I have found wisdom not in understanding how to study, or in any formulaic expression of faith, but in relationship--to Him first, and then with others. The Word says that wisdom is available for all who ask; it makes it sound like it is really waiting for us, all we have to do is grab hold of it. As Proverbs 8 says (in the Message), wisdom stands at the busiest intersection, her voice readily heard above the din of all other noises---if---we listen. Jo-Anne
I didn't mean to insinuate that wisdom IS the process of relating to God, as if when one is relating to God one is creating wisdom or something like that. No, not at all, if that's what it sounded like. By all means, wisdom comes from God, particularly the kind of wisdom that was articulated in the Proverbs; wisdom that brings clarity and understanding of the God of Israel
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction (Pro 1:7).
And, of course, it is the Spirit of God who gives wisdom. But as AtTheWell points out, the Christian experience says something more about wisdom thant what the OT could ever say. The OT looks upon wisdom as that knowledge which leads to relationship with God, not philosophy, epistemology and all those other ologies which only lead to an understanding about the world and things of the world. OT knowledge and wisdom is portrayed by and seen in those who humbled themselves before God. That's the start of wisdom in the OT; the awakening fear of the God of Israel. The NT comes around and concentrates the whole aspect of finding this wisdom by finding it in the Christ
Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God (I Cor 1:24).
This is to say that if you are going to find relationship with God today (from Christ's time on) it still begins with a fear of the God of Israel but carried with this understanding is a knowledge about an even greater means of coming to and relating with God; namely, that the God of Israel has brought forth the One who epitomizes wisdom about relationship with God. For Christ (not the Holy Spirit) is the wisdom of God in this context—the Spirit being the Presence of this wisdom, the One who overshadows the soul with the wisdom of God (Christ) and makes it possible for the eyes of the blind to see and the ears of the deaf to hear.
There is language in scripture about the Spirit of the Father, the Sprit of the Son and the Holy Spirit as if there are three Spirits. Of course there are not. There is one Spirit, just as there is one God. Wisdom can be seen in this same context: Wisdom of the Father (where Christ tells Peter that he received divine revelation straight from the Father about who Jesus was); there is the wisdom of Christ; and there is the wisdom of the Spirit. The theology of the Bible isn't meant to allow for the splitting the hairs of wisdom and turn God into a confused ontology. Rather, it is the Bible's constant proclamation that GOD IS WISDOM, and in HIM are found treasures (of wisdom) that lead to eternal life. How God reveals this wisdom today (since Christ) is in a different context than how He revealed wisdom in OT times.
Proverbs 8, therefore, is not about creating a pre-New Testament pneumatology. It's about the wonderful gift of wisdom the God of Israel has given mankind: to come to know something about relating to and relationship with God. The New Testament brings culmination of this gift into the person and work of the Christ. And God's Spirit enlightens the heart making way for a path unto the Father.
For through him [Christ] we both have access in one Spirit to the Father (Eph 2:18)
Rock on, God!
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/20/2005 9:09 AM (GMT -6) | |
SoulPurpose said...Starkman, Your posts are obviously an encouragement to others, and I appreciate the spirit in which you write them--His Spirit! I'm really not being stubborn here, but I guess I'm a little like that bandaid commercial--I'm stuck on this one! I have this deep sense that wisdom is not an "it" or a "thing," but a somebody, and that somebody being a personal being in the Trinity. As we relate to God, we grow in understanding; as we relate to the One who is wisdom, we gain wisdom. This has me keenly interested enough to do a word study on wisdom (a wise thing to do!)  God bless, Jo-Anne
Hey, you go, girl! By all means, press on! And to be as stubborn as a mule and press back—in the words of a much younger Michael Jackson—"I'll be theeerrreee." Ha!
As to this part of your post (wisdom is not an "it" or a "thing," but a somebody, and that somebody being a personal being in the Trinity), what do you do with I Cor 1:24 - Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God? Here Jesus is called the wisdom of God?
As to this part of your post (as we relate to the One who is wisdom, we gain wisdom)
What is an atheist doing when he/she demonstrates and grows in what we call wisdom?
Finally, what exactly differentiates between good old fashion wisdom and the Holy Spirit as wisdom?
Thanks much,
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/20/2005 3:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Starkman said...SoulPurpose said...
Starkman,
Your posts are obviously an encouragement to others, and I appreciate the spirit in which you write them--His Spirit!
I'm really not being stubborn here, but I guess I'm a little like that bandaid commercial--I'm stuck on this one! I have this deep sense that wisdom is not an "it" or a "thing," but a somebody, and that somebody being a personal being in the Trinity. As we relate to God, we grow in understanding; as we relate to the One who is wisdom, we gain wisdom. This has me keenly interested enough to do a word study on wisdom (a wise thing to do!)
[img]/emoticons/icon_brows2.gif[/img]
God bless,
Jo-Anne
Hey, you go, girl! By all means, press on! And to be as stubborn as a mule and press back—in the words of a much younger Michael Jackson—"I'll be theeerrreee." Ha! As to this part of your post ( wisdom is not an "it" or a "thing," but a somebody, and that somebody being a personal being in the Trinity), what do you do with I Cor 1:24 - Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God? Here Jesus is called the wisdom of God? As to this part of your post (as we relate to the One who is wisdom, we gain wisdom) What is an atheist doing when he/she demonstrates and grows in what we call wisdom? Finally, what exactly differentiates between good old fashion wisdom and the Holy Spirit as wisdom? Thanks much, Starkman
It's amazing, you know; so many of our thoughts are unintentionally traditional, passed down through the ages, and even our interpretation of scripture is seen through the lense of tradition and culture. I think it is impossible to have exegesis without eisogesis (I'm sure I've spelled those wrong).
1 Cor. 1:24: I believe that Christ is the wisdom of God, because He is God; He is the exact representation of the Father, and the Father is wisdom as well as being love. I believe that we have wisdom, God's wisdom, because we have the Spirit. I have no doubt that atheists can make wise decisions, and may be regarded by the world as wise. God may even inspire them in their decisions; he may even use us. But without the Spirit of God, supernatural wisdom does not abide in us; we are not tapped into it because we are not connected to the One who is wisdom. It is only through the person of the Spirit as He indwells us and we listen to His voice--that we have wisdom.
Good old fashioned wisdom, IMHO, may be common sense; it may be the stuff of Proverbs as well, and hopefully we all have a steady supply of that, but I believe there is a supernatural wisdom as well, which only exists in relationship with the Father. That is a very good question. I hope others jump in.
I was reading something this week (this actually does relate) about the creation of woman, and about what we can learn from Eve. Eve was God's message to the world, to teach us what it means to be feminine. The Spirit teaches us His wisdom through his word, and tradition, culture, opinions ... fall by the wayside. Here's an example; in reading Captivating by John and Stasi Eldredge, I discovered that the word for woman in Genesis, does not really mean "helper" or "help meet"; (I've always been bothered just a little by those words). The word is ezer kenegdo, which means "a sustainer who comes alongside"; a "lifesaver" who comes alongside, and the word is used another twenty times in the Old Testament, each time in reference to God, in situations where His help is desperately needed (ie: "I lift my eyes up, unto the mountains, where does my help (ezer) come from). I thank God for the scholar who dared to listen to the Spirit inside him, to relate to hiim, and to discern this meaning, because it speaks to the heart of women, everywhere--not about authority, but about worth--our created worth.
This, to me, is an example of the difference between plain old run-of-the-mill, but essential-nonetheless wisdom, and the wisdom which comes supernaturally, in relationship to the Father.
God bless (Back to you),
Jo-Anne (ezer kenegdo) 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/20/2005 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Ah, well, I think we're on the same wave here, Jo-Anne. I do believe that there is a wisdom (biblical wisdom we might call it) that comes down from the Father of lights (James). This is that supernatural wisdom that comes from God. Making the distinction between earthly wisdom and heavenly wisdom, which you and I are doing, is critical. And in the heavenly sense, wisdom is the very God who gives it. (I was thinking that you were saying that ALL wisdom is heaven-sent wisdom. That, of course, is not the case when we are talking about relating to God.)
Revelation contributes to a wise person's repertoire of wisdom (Eph 1). Revelation starts out as ready-mix cement and turns into solid wisdom. I think the issue of Eve complementing Adam is very much an issue that requires wisdom; revelation in God's word turns on the "a-ha!" light and then becomes food to feed the wise in God! It is most important, in concommitance with your comments about Eve, that God first notes that it is not good for Adam to be alone, and then drills the point home by having Adam name the animals (presumably a lot, and thus time consuming, as he watches them find their mates). It is only then that man finds his mate; when he understands clearly how important she is to be to him. For, indeed, Eve is a life-saver; she makes it possible for man to continue on. She both gives and sustains life. Further, she is, as you noted, one who is worth so much because of what she stands for and how she makes Adam complete. That Eve is made after Adam speaks almost more loudly about her importance than Adams (if you know what I mean); for she is the grand finale, that which will complete the grand work of art...He saves the best for last, if you will!
I think of that scene in the movie Jerry McGuire (Tom Cruise) where Jerry finally gets it. He realizes that his wife is worth more than he can imagine. So he goes home to her (after having been seperated) and right in front of everybody he looks at his wife and says to her what he had seen earlier when a deaf guy signed to his girl the words, "You complete me."
That says it all, and it's a very wise insight!
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/21/2005 5:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Stark,
If women could even catch a glimmer of their worth--wow! I think that tradition and culture have beaten women down for centuries, and I'm not a feminist, by the way (though I'm feminine!). Oh, boy, anyway, women are still undervalued, and they look for their worth in everyplace except the one place where they will find their true reflection--in Him. It is amazing to think that without women, the image of God would be incomplete. I better be careful here!  But I have to say that I'm excited about what I'm discovering, about women being made in the image of God, and about wisdom. I've started reading through Genesis, and am determined to do a study on wisdom, maybe even write some prose/poetry about it as I go along, and who knows! I'm inspired.
The true value of these discussions for me is to encourage others, and to inspire them to greater things for Him, and to bring others along with them. I wish I could preach the message of ezer kenegdo, to all women, but I have a strong suspicion that it would better come from the heart of a man who embraces it.
I like what you've had to say about wisdom. There must be so much more to say about it though; this can't be the end! Is that what we're searching for here, in these threads? Wisdom to walk in the light?
I'm not a theologian, but I love the journey I'm on with the Father. Just when I get comfortable, thinking that I know Him quite well, He shows me another aspect of Himself, or something about us, and I find myself wanting more. The depths of His riches, and the wonder of His Grace is unfathomable (not unsearchable though).
I wish I had another question to throw back at you; I didn't expect you to be so agreeable!  Cheers! (By the way, that's root beer).
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 5/21/2005 10:28 PM (GMT -6) | | | Ah, Jo-Anne, you put it well when you say, "I'm not a theologian, but I love the journey I'm on with the Father. Just when I get comfortable, thinking that I know Him quite well, He shows me another aspect of Himself, or something about us, and I find myself wanting more. The depths of His riches, and the wonder of His Grace is unfathomable (not unsearchable though".
What you have just said is about as many words as can be found to express what heavenly wisdom is. I mean, how does one put into words this kind of journey? How do you "tell" someone exactly what you are experiencing and learning? Can't be done. Not really. And that's because wisdom, since it points back to the One who gives it, is ineffable! It's like trying to put into words the love you have for another person. Words were not made to reach that far into heaven. Only the heart was made to do that.
Amen!
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/22/2005 1:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Stark,
Thank you for your (wise) thoughts. I've decided to devote a journal to my study of wisdom, and see what comes of it (another leg of the journey).
I once asked, on this board, what peoples' picture of God looked like, and I got some wonderful answers. I don't know if you read that thread (way back then) or answered it, but I have fallen in love with the Father that I've come to know over the past few years. I've been saved for about twenty-six years, but I've only really gotten to know Him, in the last three years. The relationship has been transforming, for me; He hasn't changed.  It is a sacred romance. You're right though; words cannot express, at least not adequately enough.
'Nite and God bless,
Jo-Anne
If God had a walled, He'd keep your picture in it. | | Back to Top | | |
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