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|  bryan mccarthy Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005 Total Posts : 179 | Posted 5/20/2005 4:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | | i'm reading some aricles on it and stuff and what i'm getting so far is that it's some sort of "happy medium" between conservative and liberal theology. but that really doesn't tell me a whole lot. can anybody give me some specifics?
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul Tillich | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PhilTheThrill Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004 Total Posts : 95 | Posted 5/26/2005 11:50 AM (GMT -6) |   | I'm getting sort of tired of all this "post-this" and "post-that". I tend to side with Solomon on this one: "There's nothing new under the sun."
In any event, I've never heard of post-liberalism. Sounds like a stretch.  | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Truth Aficionado Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003 Total Posts : 1544 | Posted 5/26/2005 1:04 PM (GMT -6) |   |
PhilTheThrill said... I'm getting sort of tired of all this "post-this" and "post-that".
Yer not getting ready to go " postal" on us now, are you? Post Edited (sparknheart) : 5/26/2005 2:32:55 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  bryan mccarthy Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005 Total Posts : 179 | Posted 5/26/2005 1:55 PM (GMT -6) |   | well, it has other names as well. postliberalism is also called "narrative theology," "yale theology," "yale-centered theology," "the yale school" of theology, or "yale postliberalism" becuz it was pioneered there, as i understand it. so my guess is that it would be fairly barthian friendly becuz he has been very influential in their theological perspective.
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul TillichPost Edited (bryan mccarthy) : 5/26/2005 2:14:59 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Similitude Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 4968 | Posted 5/27/2005 6:25 PM (GMT -6) |   | From bryan's url: In contrast, Hans Frei argued, first, that we ought to stop reading the Bible with primary attention to the historical context of individual passages and attend more to the shape of the biblical narratives, and, second, that we could read the biblical narratives best if, as much as possible, we started with those narratives rather than beginning with a cultural or philosophical framework into which we tried to make their meanings fit. Of course, we inevitably bring all sorts of ad hoc assumptions to our reading, but, as we read, we should keep questioning them and resist trying to form them into a system (since, once systematized, they would likely be harder to challenge). Frei also got a lot of us excited about reading Barth.
Jeff: Bryan, I didn't have time to read all of the web site for lack of time. But I think it's perfectly fine to start with "narrative" as long as one doesn't deny that actual history is part of what's important. For, obviously, the ressurection is important to most of us precisely because it IS historical. So at least in that one instance, we start with the importance of history. Then we can look at narrative first or not depending on what makes learning easier for us.
But I especially like the remarks about resisting FINAL systematization. Not because I think the truth is not ultimately systematic. But because I think the author is arguing for the proper role of humility in our pursuit of the ultimately true system. But in the meanwhile, we are to be "fully persuaded in our own minds," for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. So theology, I think, should be pursued like science. Science is tentative, and yet we plan and act in accordance with our own best understanding of science at all times.
wjsPost Edited (jefscott) : 5/27/2005 6:40:27 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  bryan mccarthy Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005 Total Posts : 179 | Posted 5/28/2005 8:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | jeff et. al.,
for those who haven't read the article yet (a page and a half, webstyle), i'm going to be cutting and pasting below so some of it won't make sense if you haven't read it yet.
this part i liked a lot:
"GUSTAFSON RAISES a particular question about God's intervention. What do we mean when we say things like "Sam was sick, and I prayed for him, and he recovered." Or "Sam was sick, and I prayed for him, and he died, but I hope that he found peace in dying and that dying was for him part of the will of the God who understands all things." As Austin Farrer insisted, in such cases we have no understanding of the "causal joint" between my prayers and what happened to Sam. But if GOd is gracious, then perhaps the God who has no need of my prayers so made the world that there would be some relation of a sort unknown to me between my praying and what happened to Sam--not so that Sam should be grateful to me for praying, but so that I should be grateful to God for giving meaning to my prayers."
this part i didn't completely understand:
"Too many evangelicals are not modern enough in some respects (continuing to fight rearguard battles against Darwin, for instance) because they are too modern in other respects (accepting definitions of troth, argument and evidence characteristic of one sort of modern empiricism). Postliberals, to oversimplify, would want to do it the other way round."
and this part made me laugh, but i still would like to know what "generous liberalism" means:
"Whose side am I on? Well, that depends. Sometimes, talking with liberal Southern Baptists disgusted by the direction their denomination has taken and open to new ideas, I see exciting possibilities of joining with them in what Frei called a "generous orthodoxy." On other occasions, I get invited to the wrong evangelical meeting and find that the issue is still refuting the theory of evolution or, even worse, I find that I have wandered by mistake into what seems to be the ecclesial wing of the Republican right. Then I am sure that I have far more in common with a "generous liberalism" like Jim Gustafson's. I hope that such uncertainties do not seem "unstraightforward" or worse to someone I have admired so much for so long."
bryan "Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul Tillich | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Similitude Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 4968 | Posted 5/30/2005 10:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | Bryan, from what little I've read previously, postmodernism denies that there is a legitimate epistemology that would make moral accountability or the way of knowledge similar for all people. I've heard it described as though they think all belief systems are constructs and, hence, have no absolute truth to them.
I totally relate to the idea about resisting systematization. But that idea doesn't have to presuppose a relativity of epistemology. The relativity comes in because our experience is conditioned, but that doesn't imply that one cannot move in the direction of absolute truth. Indeed, there are many biblical verses that suggest that we are to do just that. When Doc says that the more rational a belief is, the more passionately it can be embraced, I think he's implying (and I agree) that the more rational a belief is the more likely it is part of the final and true system.
If postmodernists really believe there is a true and legitimate human epistemology, and their main concern is resisting systematization only, then I'm in agreement. But like I said before, we HAVE to act in the meanwhile. We can't be so intellectually humble that we become paralyzed with respect to deliberate action. And the fact that no one IS paralyzed that way suggests that people really do believe that somethings are just obvious.
wjsPost Edited (jefscott) : 5/30/2005 10:33:06 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
   |  Corey Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1893 | Posted 5/30/2005 1:39 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
Yes, I'd say of course Plantinga affirms the basic tenets of logic. But I've heard him say that it is doubtful that one can successfully build from first principles to arrive at theistic belief, let alone Christian beliefs, such as Jesus is the Christ, etc. Holding such beliefs requires faith.
That is not to say that such beliefs do not have warrant, since the Holy Spirit may have formed or affirmed these beliefs within us in a properly basic way. If it's God talking, you'll just know. I think this is a sound epistemology, at least for the individual who has had this encounter with God.
I think in general your comments are accurate in describing postmodernism. However, let me throw this one thought out there for your consideration. The analogy of theology to science only goes so far. The scientific method is based on making objective observations. It would work great if indeed we could have direct access to observe another's inward experience with God, and thus we could proceed to compare and contrast, categorize and catalog the spiritual life. But such observations are not available to us. We can only observe the outworkings, the fruit so to speak, and beliefs formed on such basis are of limited epistemic status, and are necessarily conditioned by one's subjective interpretation. I can't really KNOW what it's like to relate personally to God without relating personally to God MYSELF.
McLaren described the postmodern epistemology as perhaps being more analogous to a spider's web than to a structural foundation (as with modernism). There are basic beliefs ("anchor points") which one forms for themselves, and then they proceed to leap across the open spaces as a spider leaps as it builds its web. These anchor points, I contend (along with Plantinga), are those beliefs we hold in a properly basic way. But I haven't heard McLaren talk explicitly in this way. The web is the system of interconnected beliefs we form to try to tie it all together. Post Edited (Corey) : 5/30/2005 1:50:03 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  CalvinnHobbes Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 88 | Posted 5/30/2005 8:11 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Bryan,
For a little under a year now I've been in a weekly discussion group with a few guys going over some different material by thinkers identified as “postliberal.” The group has been led by a pastor and his associate, who have some affiliation with Anabaptist and Mennonite traditions. I came in just after the group finished John Howard Yoder’s The Politics of Jesus. I have gone through Douglas Harink’s Paul Among the Postliberals: Pauline Theology Beyond Christendom and Modernity with them, as well as Rodney Clapp’s A Peculiar People: The Church as Culture in a Post-Christian Society.
Harink, himself postliberal, pulls from Karl Barth, John Howard Yoder, Krister Stendahl, Stanley Hauerwas, J. Louis Martyn, and Richard Hays, among others. I’ve found the camp absolutely fascinating. They’re certainly neither Catholic nor Orthodox, but sometimes I wonder if I should even call them Protestant. They differ from the traditional expressions of each of these three camps in some pretty significant ways. I almost want to put them in their own arena entirely. But between the books we’ve plowed through and this pastor and his associate's immense collective erudition in other postliberal literature (and their firm adherence to the camp), I think I’ve gotten a fairly decent feel for the school of thought, at least in an introductory sense.
I've seen a couple of salient features in PL thought thus far: (1) their almost wholesale rejection of philosophies they might consider “products of modernity” on the one hand, and (2) their desire to explicate and remedy some alleged follies of “Constantinian Christianity” on the other.
(1) Regarding the former, they appreciate quite a bit of postmodern philosophy, with its “deconstructionism” and notions of “cognitive constructivism” emphasizing the historically, culturally, socially, and linguistically influenced nature of any person’s understanding of reality. They seem to reject anything hinting of epistemological “foundationalism,” i.e., the idea that there are universally accessible and independently defensible truths, truths upon which one might build or by which might try to justify some kind of “worldview.” They’re slow to accept any notion of “common ground” from which to reason to Christian truths, especially if one is trying to reason with someone who has not yet been recreated by the Holy Spirit.
So they punt any sort of evidential or classical apologetics, natural law, natural theology, etc. Their understanding of the relationship (if any) between faith and reason doesn’t leave much room for these things. I know the proponents in my discussion group even describe the first principles of logic as “conventional” (i.e. merely Western conventions). Given all this, I can see why they prefer to talk about things in terms of “narratives,” “conversations,” and “stories.”
(2) Regarding the latter, many of these PL’s see the 4th century shift in the life of the Church, due to the Roman Empire’s sanctioning and subsequent endorsement of Christianity (under Constantine and Theodosius), as a primarily negative thing. As Church and Empire were becoming more and more fused, the people of God were losing their distinctiveness, i.e., their “alien-ness” in this world. The kingdom(s) of the world, with their “politics” and “powers’ standing in opposition to those of Christ’s Kingdom, were requiring and winning the allegiance of those who professed faith in another Lord and King. And failing to recognize the distinction between the kingdoms, Christians had no idea they were being led astray.
The PL’s see the resultant recontextualization of the Christian life as a monumental tragedy in Christian history and one not reformed by the Reformation. They would say the problem continues today, as evidenced in popular notions that America is a “Christian nation” and in the tendency of believers to frame and live their Christian thought and experience within the parameters of the “American Dream.”
Harink argues a number of other things:
(1) The common Protestant notion of justification by faith alone in Christ, and the resultant faith/works dichotomy, are misguided. He argues from linguistic and contextual considerations in Paul’s letters that Luther mistranslated key passages on justification in Romans, translating by faith in Christ when he should have translated by the faith of Christ.
(2) The common Protestant understanding of precisely what took place in the cross of Christ is also misguided. He chides Protestant tendencies to internalize, personalize, and privatize the salvific effects of Christ’s “apocalyptic act of redemption,” which accomplished so much more in its triumph over the "powers” and principalities."
(3) The Christian community should be a “political” reality in that it has its own political order for peace rooted in things like humility, servanthood, submission, and self-sacrifice. The religion/politics dichotomy then, he argues, is a poor dichotomy. But the Church shouldn’t be striving to see to it that the national government is propped up by Christian tenets or ethics either.
(4) The common Protestant understandings of the Church as the “new Israel” and of what is happening in God’s “election” of his “chosen people” are also way off. Corporeal Israel has always been and will always be God’s chosen people. What we see in Paul is God’s grafting of the Gentiles into this elect through the cross of Christ. So the closing of the Jew/Gentile divide is more paramount than Protestantism typically renders it. He spends a lot of time here critiquing N. T. Wright’s formulation of the common “super-cessionist” (the Church succeeding Israel as God's chosen people) view on the relationship between the Church and Israel.
(5) Just as the way of Christ offers its own “politic,” it is also offers its own “culture.” We should treat and preach Christianity as a “political” and “cultural” way of life rather than as a “religion.” The Christianity as a way of life as opposed to Christianity as a set of ideas language is pretty popular among these PL's that I've been in contact with.
I can’t say how many PL’s across the boards agree with Harink on these points, but I imagine a large portion of them do. But anyway, hopefully I didn’t regurgitate too much of what was already in the link you gave us above. What I read in the article sounds a lot like what I’ve come across in my experience with this circle. I appreciate a lot of what the PL’s have to say, although they also seem to me to be a bit extreme in much of what they have to say, if not quite reductionistic (particularly in the discussion of epistemology). I really enjoyed reading Harink and found him challenging. Despite still disagreeing with him on some key theological points, I would definitely say his book is well worth the read. He really got me thinking about some new things, as well as some old things from different angles.
Regarding the Constantinian factor (which Rodney Clapp focuses a little more on), these PL’s have quite a bit in common with Greg (Boyd) actually. I would encourage you to check out Greg’s 4/18/04 sermon entitled “Taking America Back for God?” on the www.whchurch.org website. It’s the first sermon in a series he entitled “The Cross and the Sword.” I was really encouraged to hear Greg addressing this issue. And I think he's right on here. This is where I believe my time in this PL discussion group has benefited me the most as a Christian. They really opened my eyes up to some profound truths here, I believe. I think we have conflated the Kingdom of God with the kingdom(s) of the world in more ways than we realize.
But enough of the tome. Hopefully you’ve found some of this helpful.
Have a good week!
Shane
"There is no fit search after truth which does not, first of all, begin to live the truth which it knows." ~Horace Bushnell | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Similitude Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 4968 | Posted 5/30/2005 8:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | Corey: I think in general your comments are accurate in describing postmodernism. However, let me throw this one thought out there for your consideration. The analogy of theology to science only goes so far. The scientific method is based on making objective observations. It would work great if indeed we could have direct access to observe another's inward experience with God, and thus we could proceed to compare and contrast, categorize and catalog the spiritual life. But such observations are not available to us.
Jeff: I guess I was thinking more along the lines of theology in the purely systematic sense. One can, I think, have some right thoughts about theology without having ever experienced a direct personal interaction with the Holy Spirit. I would suspect some degree of golden rule thought, for example, is simply the product of being sentient and rational. But the full systematization of the truest and most complete theology would, of course, require such an interaction with God. E.g., Paul says having RECEIVED the Spirit of adoption, we cry Abba... This example amongst others, I think, confirms your point. wjs | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Similitude Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 4968 | Posted 5/30/2005 8:48 PM (GMT -6) |   | Shane, thanks for the detailed post. Where I get lost is on statements like these:
I know the proponents in my discussion group even describe the first principles of logic as “conventional” (i.e. merely Western conventions). Given all this, I can see why they prefer to talk about things in terms of “narratives,” “conversations,” and “stories.”
I, personally, don't know how to make sense of narratives or conversations without the first principles of logic. And then when I read what they say Christians "should" do, I'm wondering, "how do they know that?" Are they imposing their own construct on me? It just seems like they have no grounds from which to tell me what I, as a Christian, should do once they abandon even the first principles of logic.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
  |  CalvinnHobbes Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 88 | Posted 6/3/2005 1:20 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Some of my concerns exactly, Jeff. If there's an epistemological problem, I think it's going to have to do with the propositional content we plug into the logical framework and not with the logic itself. I wonder if they're just getting a little too excited here. If we jettison logical relations we'll have a pretty difficult time saying or even thinking anything meaningful, it seems to me. And honestly, I don't know that all postliberals would go as far as my friends in this group have.
But in their defense, their comments concerning epistemology serve as good reminders that propositional knowledge is neither the only kind nor the most important kind of knowledge, that not everyone is necessarily able or willing to rationally assent to the same item of knowledge, and that we aren't afforded that unquestionable deductive certainty in much of anything. If nothing else, we tend to gain better understandings of one another as people when we don't bring some dogmatic rationalism into the conversation. "There is no fit search after truth which does not, first of all, begin to live the truth which it knows." ~Horace Bushnell | | Back to Top | | |
    |  CalvinnHobbes Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 88 | Posted 6/4/2005 12:24 PM (GMT -6) |   |
You mentioned inductive reason, Jeff. I often wonder if the greatest rational (as opposed to experiential) difficulty with the philosophical and apologetic enterprises is that truths arrived at inductively don't compel the intellect. Deductive logic itself might, once the terms and such are understood, but the general premises we plug into our deductive templates are typically inductive products themselves. And inductive conclusions, by traditional definition, are only more or less probable. So those who, in good "modern" fashion, insist on predicating demonstrable certainty of "knowledge" are, of course, going to say that any argumentation involving some measure of induction cannot be epistemically justified. (Alan Rhoda's Ph.D. dissertation actually addresses this. He challenges this skeptical staple as articulated by the 18th century Scottish philosopher David Hume. He sent me the summary, but I haven't been able to get him to send me the rest. That chump. )
In philosophical and/or interfaith debate, I suspect people are, whether they realize it or not, underneath it all basically telling the other person, "If you want to reason me into your camp, you'd better compel my intellect!" To put it in the parlance of the Thomists--"Go ahead, actualize my potentiality!" But when the intellect isn't compelled to accept your starting premise, the person who doesn't want to believe it can always find a way out of accepting the argument. Whether they think of it in these terms or not, I think the postmoderns and postliberals are sensitive to this. And it seems to me to be an important consideration. However, if certain postmoderns or postliberals try through some formal philosophical epistemology to write off the efficacy of rational demonstration altogether, they might be revealing some clandestine commitments of their own to the modernistic conception of "knowledge" and, in this instance, might be subject to the same criticisms one may launch at the "modern" skeptics.
But the existential component does seem to be the real powerhouse in belief formation. And the postmoderns do us good service in emphasizing this area.
"There is no fit search after truth which does not, first of all, begin to live the truth which it knows." ~Horace BushnellPost Edited (CalvinnHobbes) : 6/4/2005 2:27:00 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
   |  Similitude Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 4968 | Posted 6/4/2005 8:07 PM (GMT -6) |   | Shane: But when the intellect isn't compelled to accept your starting premise, the person who doesn't want to believe it can always find a way out of accepting the argument.
AND...
But the existential component does seem to be the real powerhouse in belief formation. And the postmoderns do us good service in emphasizing this area.
Jeff: What precisely do you mean by existential component? How does it differ from an experience like witnessing miracle after miracle from men who were not lawless, and yet ignoring their testimony because of a desire to "find a way out of accepting the argument?"
As I see it, whether we engage in inductive reasoning with another has nothing to do with whether we believe it "will work." It is simply the appropriate and respectful thing to do. And this, I think, is because the truth is ultimately rational, anyway. Accordingly, it should not surprise us that there are good arguments for the ressurection of Christ even though our own belief of it may have nothing to do with those arguments. I don't see biblical authors writing to others as if the only grounds of a dialogue is some shared experience. I see both - rational argument AND the assumption of some shared experience.
Since Christianity is not just a system of thought, but a normative one, it seems that there has to be some RESPECTFUL way of communicating to one another those warnings and admonitions we see being communicated in the bible. And if reason has no role, I can't see how that can be done. All admonition becomes authoritarian. E.g., my experience is more authentic than yours, so you should do things my way!
BTW, I would love to see Alan's stuff on this. Has he posted to some thread in the past about it?
wjs Post Edited (jefscott) : 6/4/2005 9:30:10 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  CalvinnHobbes Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 88 | Posted 6/6/2005 11:27 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Jeff said... What precisely do you mean by existential component? How does it differ from an experience like witnessing miracle after miracle from men who were not lawless, and yet ignoring their testimony because of a desire to "find a way out of accepting the argument?"
I'm just getting at the idea that people aren't usually reasoned, per se, into their currently accepted beliefs through careful logical argumentation. Most people just accept the lens handed to them somewhere along the way by those more intelligent than themselves and whom they happened to respect or admire. This might be their parents. It might be the pastor at the first church they ever attended. It might be that university professor with the charismatic pedagogy. We might even talk about the lens of one's "community."
I think people do want you to give them a case or a lens with significant explanatory power. But as the reformed epistemologists (Plantinga, K. J. Clark, Wolterstorff, Alston, etc.) aptly point out, people will rationally do about anything within the realm of logical possibility to "fit" incoming experiential data into their current theoretical framework (i.e. to explain the data), even if it requires some serious reaching. But inso far as the data can possibly be made to fit somehow into that framework (i.e. isn't undeniably and noticeably contradictory to it), regardless of how much they may have to do some stretching or minor tweaking, they can convince themselves that there's a "way out" of your pretty good argument when they really want one to be there. (I hope I'm not just spouting trivialities here!)
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at exactly in your second question here, but I think you're right on with your post. And I couldn't tell you if Alan has offered any public access to his dissertation or not. Should you find out he has, please let me know.
"There is no fit search after truth which does not, first of all, begin to live the truth which it knows." ~Horace BushnellPost Edited (CalvinnHobbes) : 6/7/2005 6:04:28 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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