Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)

Forum Quick Jump

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

PhilTheThrill
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95

Posted 4/21/2005 11:27 AM (GMT -6)

Hey guys,

It's been awhile since I've posted on here, but I have a question that needs one part theological acumen and one part imagination.

I'm writing a short story/novella about the war in heaven between Michael and Satan. In writing, I've realized how many bizarre mysteries the Bible leaves us to speculate on. I come to you with such a mystery:

Why did Satan rebel? Before you give a normal pat answer, riddle me this: Satan was supposedly one of God's most beloved and powerful angels. Satan is not stupid. He had to know that he could not kill or dethrone God. And notice that Satan did not war with God but rather with Michael, a fellow angel. Why would Satan attempt such a manuever? What could he possibly think he stood to gain? Really, what was Satan's endgame? I reject outright the idea that Satan thought he could rival/kill God. He knows much more than we do what God is and is capable of. He must have had a goal that he thought he could realistically attain.

So, I ask you: What do you think Satan was really trying to do?

bryan mccarthy
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179

Posted 4/21/2005 11:44 AM (GMT -6)

Hey, Phil.

Phil said: Satan was supposedly one of God's most beloved and powerful angels.

bryan: Well, first we have to decide if this is in fact what we believe happened, which is a little tougher than it sounds. We are currently hashing out this very concept on my thread, "Over and Over and Over Again." Here's the link if you're interested in that one.

http://www.opentheismboard.org/default.aspx?f=5&m=54719

To me, it seems like there's insufficient biblical support for this claim, which in my view, makes the question you are asking very difficult to even ask, much less answer. So I dunno.

bryan

PhilTheThrill
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95

Posted 4/21/2005 12:22 PM (GMT -6)

Bryan -

Thanks for the link, interesting debate.

I'm mainly going off the verse in Revelations 12:7:

12:7 Then war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

I realize I'm using a little bit of the Isa and Eze verses to flesh out this dragon, but even so, there's an evil being in heaven who is making war on the angels? Why? What is the goal? What is the endgame? What could the dragon possibly hope to accomplish?

The verse goes on to say that Michael triumphed because the dragon was not strong enough. This raises the issue that Michael merely won a contest of strength. Theoretically, the dragon could have won if he had been stronger. Had the dragon won, what would have happened?

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 4/22/2005 10:57 PM (GMT -6)

The initial action that led to Satan becoming what he is is up for grabs. That the journey down the path he entered undoubtedly blinds one to truth (hence, Satan's ludicrous idea that He could ever win or that any war with God is worth fighting against Him) is evident. When one looses one's eyes, one physically goes blind. When one looses one's heart, one spiritually goes blind.

Starkman

My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us?

bryan mccarthy
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179

Posted 4/23/2005 12:22 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Phil.

Phil: there's an evil being in heaven who is making war on the angels? Why? What is the goal? What is the endgame? What could the dragon possibly hope to accomplish?

bryan: hmm. you're right. that does seem kinda weird. if it's not satan it's still some entity -- a dragon (possibly leviathan or one of the other comsic monsters -- are these merely jewish apocalyptic superstitions or were they on to something?) -- and we can still ask the same question of IT. i dunno. i think starkman's answer here is what most people would probably say and i don't really have anything different unless, taking into account the eze/isa debate, we say god created him stupid, but that wouldn't have much purpose so i'll wait and see what you say to starkman.

bryan

Sahid
Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 4/23/2005 4:56 AM (GMT -6)

No answers (yet), but more problems. Who here knows Satan's IQ? Not me. I'm not saying one way or another. I know that this is kinda out from left field, but maybe apocalyptic and/or prophetic literature is symbolic. Either way you take the Eze. passage there is symbolic meaning, and I think we'd all agree that Revelation has quite a bit of symbolism too. Again, I'm not saying one way or the other, but seems like we're assuming a lot.

Why did Satan do what he did? I don't know. Maybe he was an open theist.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

MattBrown
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 74

Posted 4/25/2005 8:06 AM (GMT -6)

Ok, bad analogy.

When I grew up, over time I came to dislike the little fundamental Bible church I was born into. Eventually I rebelled and left church altogether for a number of years. If we make the assumption that Satan was created into his position, I can see why rebellion would be a real possibility.

Be careful, lest in fighting the dragon you become the dragon. - Nietzsche

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 4/25/2005 8:18 AM (GMT -6)

My speculations.

Satan fell into the trap we all do. He began to believe that his true self-actualization was being hindered by God. He grew to not buy the paradoxical idea of "losing one's life to gain it". He began to see God as a THREAT to his existence, individuality, and personhood...rather than a necessary part of it's fulfillment. Once that thought was there, it was downhill from there.

It's the same reason that sin permeates human beings. It's why we do a LOT of the stupid things we do. We are trying to find value and security in all the wrong places.

"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."

--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 4/30/2005 9:27 AM (GMT -6)

MephEternal said...
My speculations.

Satan fell into the trap we all do. He began to believe that his true self-actualization was being hindered by God. He grew to not buy the paradoxical idea of "losing one's life to gain it". He began to see God as a THREAT to his existence, individuality, and personhood...rather than a necessary part of it's fulfillment. Once that thought was there, it was downhill from there.

It's the same reason that sin permeates human beings. It's why we do a LOT of the stupid things we do. We are trying to find value and security in all the wrong places.

Hello Meph,

I agree that some people do "stupid things" because they are trying to find "value and security" in this life. But, what makes you think satan (or Adam & Eve) was trying to find "value and security" when he rebelled against a relationship with God?

Thanks,

Mark

PhilTheThrill
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95

Posted 5/4/2005 12:50 PM (GMT -6)

So if you all are curious, I think I have found my solution for the story.

Here's the deal: I think Satan's end game was to be defeated by God.

Are you SHOCKED?! Let me explain...

Satan, ha-Satan, the Accuser, has spent 1000's of years bringing cases against humans on earth. He knows better than anyone the depths of depravity in man. Sometimes God sides with Satan and punishes, sometimes God shows mercy. However, one "day", Satan learns of God's plan to send his son on earth to act as a permanent gracious payment for all sins, past present and future. Suddenly, Satan becomes enraged. These disgusting animals who reject God over and over are getting a "get out of Sheol free" card. He brings his concerns to God, and God ignores them. Satan becomes bitter and decides to act. But what can he do to make a difference? What victory can he achieve?

He can force God to act. He figures that if he leads the angels astray and makes war on Heaven, God will be forced to act and defeat him, proving that God is at the mercy of his creations, in essence, humiliating God.

So Satan sets about making war on Heaven, furiously causing destruction in the spiritual realms, just waiting for God to act.

God does not act. Instead, St. Michael the Archangel defeats the dragon and casts him down to earth with the rest of the rebellious animals. Satan's entire plan was defeated by God's nonaction. Satan is forced to lead humanity astray in a final last-ditch effort to force God's hand, or take as many souls with him to destruction as possible.

This answers all the sticky questions:

Satan wasn't stupid, what did he think he could accomplish? Forcing God to act.
Why did Michael defeat Satan and not God? To further defeat Satan, God had to let his agents do it for him.
What weapon does Satan think he has against God? Free will.

What do you think? Obviously we'll never know if that's true, but I think it's the most plausible answer.

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 5/4/2005 1:29 PM (GMT -6)

PhilTheThrill said...
Satan, ha-Satan, the Accuser, has spent 1000's of years bringing cases against humans on earth. He knows better than anyone the depths of depravity in man. Sometimes God sides with Satan and punishes, sometimes God shows mercy. However, one "day", Satan learns of God's plan to send his son on earth to act as a permanent gracious payment for all sins, past present and future. Suddenly, Satan becomes enraged. These disgusting animals who reject God over and over are getting a "get out of Sheol free" card. He brings his concerns to God, and God ignores them. Satan becomes bitter and decides to act. But what can he do to make a difference? What victory can he achieve?

What weapon does Satan think he has against God? Free will.

Hello Phil,

Why would an omniscient God reveal his redemptive plan before Satan rebelled, or prior to the rebellion in Eden?

LFW, power to the contrary, can also work in favor of God.

Peace,

Mark

PhilTheThrill
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95

Posted 5/4/2005 1:35 PM (GMT -6)

Mark -

Believe me, you won't find many people more pro-LFW than I. That's part of why it is such a beautiful device for my story. What Satan sees as his greatest weapon can also be God's greatest weapon for the rest of creation. That's the beauty of free will, it's what we make of it. It can condemn us or redeem us.

Also, I'm going based of the assumption that perhaps Satan was not the same thing as the Serpent in the garden. I realize that's the commonly accepted idea, but what if God appointed ha-Satan AFTER the fall because it was only after the fall that he needed an Accuser?

I'm working with the theory that Satan was on God's side up until after the Hebrew Bible was written, but before the birth of Christ and that he rebelled when he learned of the plan for salvation. Else, why is Satan not mentioned as the pinnacle of evil until the new testament?

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 5/4/2005 2:45 PM (GMT -6)

PhilTheThrill said...
...What Satan sees as his greatest weapon can also be God's greatest weapon for the rest of creation. That's the beauty of free will, it's what we make of it. It can condemn us or redeem us.

I agree.

PhilTheThrill said...
Also, I'm going based off the assumption that perhaps Satan was not the same thing as the Serpent in the garden. I realize that's the commonly accepted idea, but what if God appointed ha-Satan AFTER the fall because it was only after the fall that he needed an Accuser?

I'm working with the theory that Satan was on God's side up until after the Hebrew Bible was written, but before the birth of Christ and that he rebelled when he learned of the plan for salvation. Else, why is Satan not mentioned as the pinnacle of evil until the new testament?

Why does "God need an Accuser"?

Keep us posted on your "theory".

Many times Satan is directly (and indirectly) mentioned in the OT.

1 Chron. 21:1 (NRSV)
Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to count the people of Israel.

Job 1:6-9 (NRSV)
One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. [7] The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the Lord, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." [8] The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil." [9] Then Satan answered the Lord, "Does Job fear God for nothing?

Job 1:12 (NRSV)
The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, all that he has is in your power; only do not stretch out your hand against him!" So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

Job 2:1-4 (NRSV)
One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord. [2] The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the Lord, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." [3] The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil. He still persists in his integrity, although you incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason." [4] Then Satan answered the Lord, "Skin for skin! All that people have they will give to save their lives.

Job 2:6-7 (NRSV)
The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, he is in your power; only spare his life."
[7] So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and inflicted loathsome sores on Job from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

Zech. 3:1-2 (NRSV)
Then he showed me the high priest Joshua standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. [2] And the Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, O Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this man a brand plucked from the fire?"

Peace,

Mark

Post Edited (sparknheart) : 5/4/2005 2:48:19 PM (GMT-5)

Reader
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 66

Posted 5/4/2005 3:08 PM (GMT -6)

I think that there is a pssage in Jude that also applies to the battle between Michael and Satan, Michael's means of victory in his battle against the enemy.

But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Even as Michael is disputing with Satan, he is invokeing God Himself to rebuke. God's authority and God Himself is called upon by Michael in his battle against the adversary.

PhilTheThrill
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95

Posted 5/4/2005 4:01 PM (GMT -6)

Well, as I said, it's just a theory for a story I'm writing. I haven't figured it all out.

A lot of the instances of Satan in the OT seem fairly "non-evil". Satan tempts or tests or accuses, but not necessarily in an evil way. He seems to often act as God' prosecuting attorney. In the New Testament, he emerges as the main figure of Evil. Sparkn, you highlighted the wrong part of my last line: I know Satan is mentioned in the OT, but not really as the pinnacle of evil. He's just kind of there, testing and prosecuting.

I know many OT scholars believe that Satan is a position in the OT as opposed to an evil entity. My theory is that perhaps this position began to change Lucifer/The Dragon/Whoever and turn him bitterly against man and God. Almost as though in the OT, Satan is working as an agent of God, but is trying to prove that man is not worthy. In the NT, he is actively working against God to MAKE man unworthy.

To me, there just seems to be a different between the OT Satan and the NT Satan....

Acolyte
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 42

Posted 6/21/2005 12:40 AM (GMT -6)

The devil’s intention in bringing sin into the world was to frustrate God’s eternal will or predestination for humanity by bringing about its annihilation or non-existence. By getting humans to sin they would turn away or become “unplugged” from the source of their existence and hence die going, body and soul, into non-existence. (This is why the Devil is called Beelzebub-Lord of the Flies/Corruption) By frustrating God’s will, he would then demonstrate his equality with God. Christ rescues human nature from annihilation thereby vindicating (justifying) God’s claim to be God (omnipotent) without violating human nature, making God primary recipient of any declarative justification-human justification is secondary and derivative (this helps to bring the Johannine and Pauline corpus together). Since human nature is by divine irresistible will given a measure of libertarian freedom, if God saved humanity universally at the level of personhood, this would violate God’s eternal will or predestination for humanity and the devil would also be victorious. Calvinists, ironically enough, when arguing for Total Depravity and for their view of monergism, are thereby arguing for the vindication of the claims of the Devil, namely that God has to act on humanity in such a way that eliminates humanity’s libertarian freedom which is grounded in the image/icon of God. The idea being that God is free with libertarian freedom and humans are made in God’s icon or image and they also enjoy a measure of libertarian freedom. Calvinism then conflates the categories of person and nature. There is nothing more to a person on a Calvinist reading than an instance of a nature. This is how you get the nonsense in Jonathan Edwards concerning natures determining agent’s actions. (You also get the motivation to gloss persons as relations, which has obvious ties in to the Filioque controversy and an Augustinian view of the Trinity and Existentialist philosophy) This is only possible if we conflate the two categories. This conflation also leads to obvious problems in Christology and the Trinity since both of those doctrines depend on a strong metaphysical distinction between person and nature. Predestination for Calvinism, because it conflates person and nature is only predestination at the level of this conflated person/nature. This is why they cannot make a distinction between everyone being predestined to everlasting existence or life on the one hand and human freedom determining how one spends that everlasting existence, as the Orthodox do. Passages such as 1 Tim 4:10, 2 Pet 2:1 and John 6:39 should come to mind here. This is why for Calvinists, it is an either/or proposition. Either humans have free will or God’s position as God is retained but not both.

Acolyte
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 42

Posted 6/21/2005 5:18 PM (GMT -6)

Phil,

The devil's idea is that he has God in a pickle. By bringing in death by sin, the devil can show his equality with God. He can frustrate God's will for creation, namely that it exist everlastingly. If the devil can annihilate it then he is as powerful as God.

If God tries to save creation by redeeming it in something like a calvinistic fashion irrespective of the freedom (LFW) of creatures, then God has frustrated his own will. God has also willed that his creatures be free in a measure with the same kind of freedom he has. To save them apart from such freedom would be to will contrary to himself and hence frustrate his own will. If on the other hand, God does nothing or only saves some from annihilation then the devil has been able to frustrate God's will. If he saves some or none, the devil has won. If he saves all then the devil has won.

Either way, the devil has shown his equality in power through the power of sin and death and thus is Lord of Corruption/Decay/Death. If God can't pull off a salvation that is universal in scope but also respects the freedom that he has willed his creatures to have, then the devil's claims will have been vindicated.

This I think captures the satanic motivation expressed in Heb 2:14-15 among other passages.

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 6/22/2005 10:49 AM (GMT -6)

Why Satan rebelled...the mystery of iniquity?

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
<FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">

JohnE</FONT>

</FONT>http://www.revivaltheology.cjb.net

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 4:44 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual