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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
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Empiressque
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/24/2005 9:50 PM (GMT -6) |   | Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question...are you implying that God had a choice to be something other than a Trinity?
thanks,
~E+ | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 7/26/2005 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | I guess you'd need to understand what the roles of the different members were to understand why three, one article I came across suggested we use the following categories;
The Father: Ultimate Trustworthiness
The Son: Relational Truthfulness
The Spirit: Dynamic Transformation
I'm sure there are plenty of other ways one could think about of expressing it, but I think that maybe looking at this kind of category gives us hints. | | Back to Top | | |
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klock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 7/27/2005 11:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Trinity theology speaks of
God the Father
Jesus the Son
the Holy Spirit which is also referred to as God's spirit
These three persons make up the trinity Godhead, right?
Now Romans 8:9 speaks of Christ's spirit. Does this constitute a fourth person in the Godhead?
I would agree with bryan that the Bible NEVER comes out and clearly teaches trinity theology, but instead trinity theology is pulled out from bits and pieces of scattered scripture. Should not something that important be clearly set out?
A jewish person has no problem with Jesus possibly being the Messiah, but their main issue is that most Christians make Christ either the one true God or part of the one true God. Is the Christian understanding of God more precise then that of the Ancient Jews? Consider this, the concept of trinity was not developed by Jewish believers. Most of the early church saints that pushed trinity theology were gentiles and many with pagan backgrounds. Why leave the jewish roots of the faith?
Klock
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 7/28/2005 4:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid said...
Seems kinda arbitrary. There's no "It had to be three because..." Maybe the existence of a God is necessary, but the existence our God does not appear to be so.
It seems kinda arbitrary from our perspective perhaps - do you think it must from all perspectives? There are so many ways of thinking about the Trinity which make it look such a beautiful and obvious doctrine, just thinking about 'three persons' won't work - think about what the three persons are, you must have read some of the early church's writings about the son as the radiance of the father, or whatever - do these not capture something which makes it look more obvious? How about thinking about the relational nature of existence? no?
Sorry, that's not meant to be criticism, I'm trying to point you to the places where I find this begins to make sense. I think our problem is we think of things in a much too individualistic way - the way our society has trained us to, we think individuals must be the primary building block of existence, when perhaps that's not it at all, it's relations, and maybe these relations can only all be fully captured within three persons. | | Back to Top | | |
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klock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 8/1/2005 11:02 PM (GMT -6) | |
markporter said...
Sahid said...
Seems kinda arbitrary. There's no "It had to be three because..." Maybe the existence of a God is necessary, but the existence our God does not appear to be so. It seems kinda arbitrary from our perspective perhaps - do you think it must from all perspectives? There are so many ways of thinking about the Trinity which make it look such a beautiful and obvious doctrine, just thinking about 'three persons' won't work - think about what the three persons are, you must have read some of the early church's writings about the son as the radiance of the father, or whatever - do these not capture something which makes it look more obvious? How about thinking about the relational nature of existence? no? Sorry, that's not meant to be criticism, I'm trying to point you to the places where I find this begins to make sense. I think our problem is we think of things in a much too individualistic way - the way our society has trained us to, we think individuals must be the primary building block of existence, when perhaps that's not it at all, it's relations, and maybe these relations can only all be fully captured within three persons.
Mark,
Do we have to believe in the trinity so that what is described in the bible concerning the Father and the Son can be beautiful? The bible clearly states that Christ is the image of the invisible God, that He is the radiance of God's glory, that He is the only begotten Son, that all of the fullness of God dwells in Christ bodily, that it is not robbery for Christ to consider Himself equal to God... all these wonderful statements can be realized about God and His Christ without trinity theology. Christ never claimed to be the one true God, but always directed people to the Father. Even in His trial, Christ was not condemned for claiming to be God, but for claiming to be the Son of God. I have asked many Christians wher does it teach that Christ must be the one true God in order to be the Messiah, and all have had to admit that this is not taught in scripture, but still is necessary.
Klock | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 8/2/2005 5:34 PM (GMT -6) | | | klock, I think that our lack of context means that perhaps all those statements don't mean as much for us as they would have done in the Jewish Context, I think the fact that we are removed from that context means that we don't always immediately grasp their full implications. Also there are other passages which seem to combine Jesus and the Father in such a way as they are almost interchangable, look for example at the trinitarian formula at the end of mathew, etc. | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 8/4/2005 2:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Trinity theology as such is not there, no, we never get told 'God is three persons in one being' in a direct statement like that, but we have more than adequate data for us to be able to make such a formulation from scripture. Why did God not tell the ancient Jews about this? Well, there are plenty of things that he only reveals gradually over time, and of course in the OT there was the ever-present danger of polytheism which such a revelation might have not helped. I think discussing heresy might be straying from the purpose of this thread though.
I note my own words 'lack of context' and don't see a problem with them, surely you must realise how important context is for understanding. I never said that the fact that father son and holy spirit are spoken of in the same verse was proof that they all form one God - look at what the verse says though - to baptise in the name of the father, son and holy spirit - they are all clearly put on the same level in that formula, and also are linked by 'the name' - now I think it's clear from reading it that 'the name' is probably the divine name of the OT.
Anyway, as I said, I'm not sure that this kind of discussion is the purpose of this thread, so maybe it would be better to start another one somewhere else. | | Back to Top | | |
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MrIndifference
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144
| Posted 8/5/2005 5:46 AM (GMT -6) | | | "Where is mom in all this? A perfect family has to have a mom."
I believe that the Holy Spirit is the mom of the trinity. I mentioned it earlier in the thread and I believe in the "Marriage and Divorce" thread. Actually I more stated it from the perspective of the HS being the Helper to God, sort of like Eve is the Helper to the Adam. I believe that our family structure was largely based on the family structure of the Trinity. I have been meaning to put something together, but if you do a study on the historical practices of the ancient Hebrews in terms of Weddings and Marriage, you will see not only the relationship between Christ and the Church, but also what I believe to be hints to the Holy Spirit being the Mother figure in the trinity.
MrI. :| Post Edited (MrIndifference) : 8/5/2005 5:51:38 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 8/5/2005 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | | Just want to add one examples to back up the need for context in looking at this stuff - in John's gospel when Jesus is claiming to be God's son, John adds that by doing this he was making himself equal to God, now, you try doing something like that in 21st century Britain and people are going to take it to mean something totally different - sonship has a totally different meaning. | | Back to Top | | |
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RL
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 8/16/2005 9:34 AM (GMT -6) | | May I?
Markporter asked "Why did God not tell the ancient Jews about this?"
Well, God told a lot of things, and others remain beyond our experience. But there is lots of Trinitarian stuff in the OT. It's there. And, actually, in most religions of that region there was recognition -- though not of Personal nature -- of God's "word" and God's "spirit." (though, again, not recognizing the Personal nature of God's Word and God's Spirit--even some heretics in the 300s AD contested tha tthe Spirit was not Personally God). And interestingly, really-orthodox Jews are adament that the "Angel" of God is "un-created" and not a creature.
The intellectual idea of the Trinity does not seek to reduce God to a number. What it does is preserve the Personal nature of God as a revelation before our eyes as a help in our relationship with God. That's the key: the relationship. We experience God as three--Father loving, Son sent, and Spirit given. And we experience God as one--united in all he does in creating, calling, saving, restoring. When we look at the three we see the one, and when we look at the one we see the three.
Its all about relationship and about God's being for us.
Hope that's OK.
(tx)
be not conformed, but be transformed... | | Back to Top | | |
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