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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
|  Posted 10/17/2005 5:48 AM (GMT -6) |   | Learning Exercise from the Pat, the Pedantic A$$ Theologian.
(Sesame Street theme playing in the backgroud...)
Ok, boys and girls. Welcome to the show! PAT here! We're gonna do an exercise to learn something about God! Are ya ready?
[Response ala Spongebob: "We're READYYYYY!!!"]
Alrighty then! Lets get our tools! We're gonna need...
about a gallon of tap water
Medium sized cup
Large bowl with flat bottom
A small cup
Ok. Now I'm gonna mention the steps as do 'em. So watch closely, ok?
"OK!" [smiles]
Place the cup on an even surface.
Fill the medium-sized cup with the water all the way the brim.
Look at the cup full of the water and what it looks like.
Now, empty the cup of water.
Place the cup into the middle of the large bowl.
Again, fill the cup with the water all the way the brim. Be careful not to spill any!
Look at the cup of water in the bowl.
"Oooooh!"
In your mind, compare what the cup of water looks like now to what it looked like when it was by itself.
Now, pour more water into the cup.
Watch what happens.
"Wooooow!"
Keep pouring more and more water in until the bowl is full to the brim.
Look at the water, the cup, and the bowl.
"That's so cooool!!"
Now, take the small cup and take water out of the bowl until the bowl is about half full.
Look at the water, the medium-sized cup, and the bowl.
Now, take the small cup and put in about HALF the cup of water back into the bowl.
Again, look at the water, the medium-sized cup, and the bowl.
******************************
Now, I'm going to make some ties. These things we used were symbols for something else. I'm going to tell you what that something else is...right now!
"YAAAAAY!" [clapping]
Ok....
Medium-sized Cup = God's necessary essential existence
Bowl = Contingent expression of God's necessary essential existence (ie Creation)
Water = The love and life of the Triune God's perichoretic dance
Brim of the cup = State of affairs where God has reached an unsurpassably intense level of experiencing beauty.
Brim of bowl = State of affairs were Creation has been permeated with beautiful experience.
Small cup = Morally relevant activity of sentient creatures in Creation.
***********
Ok, boys and girls. Let's discuss some things...
1) When you looked at the full cup of water when it was alone and compared it to when it was in the bowl, did you notice anything about the cup of water? Was the cup JUST as full with the bowl as without? Did the bowl by itself add ANY water to the cup? What do you think this symbolizes?
"Hmmmm..." [looking pensive]
2) Could you fill the cup with water without the bowl at all?
[children look at each other and nod]
Okie dokey...let's move on...
3) When you poured more water into the full cup that was set in the middle of the empty bowl, where did the water go? What do you think that represents?
"Hmmmm..."
4) When you used the small cup to take water out of the bowl, did that take water out of the medium-sized cup?
[Kids shake their heads]
Are you SUUURE?
[Kids shake their heads again]
Okie doke!
5) When you used the small cup to put water into the bowl, did that put more water into the medium-sized cup?
[Kids shake their heads]
Are you SUUURE?
[Kids shake their heads again, laughing]
Okie doke! [smiles]
What do you think THAT means?
"Hmmmm.."
Hey, kids. Would you believe that SOME people would say that the small cup taking water out of the bowl really DOES take water out of the medium-sized cup??
[Look of surprise on kids] "No way! Who'd believe THAT? It's right there."
I know, I know. But it's true.
"Duh!!!" [kids making faces]
Hey, hey, now. That's not nice! These people are very well meaning. That's just the way they see things. But you guys see things different, right?
"RIGHT!" [bright and smiling]
Okie doke! Would any of you like to summarize what we've learned with this exercise?
[All the kids raise their hands]
"Oooh! Oooh! Me! Me!"
Ok...how about you.. [picks a little girl] What do you think?
"Well, I think that this is saying that God reaches an unsurpassably intense level of experiencing beauty, whether or not Creation exists."
You mean, God doesn't need Creation to reach the unsurpassable level?
"Nope"
[Looking into the camera] Wow! You're a smart little girl!
"Wait, there's more."
There is???
"Yeah, as more beauty that overflows from God, it gets expressed in Creation...and God tries to fill all of Creation with his beauty."
[Kids look at each other and nod]
"But sentient creatures can make morally relevant decisions that take away from the amount of beauty in Creation.'
[Kids scowl] "BOOOO!"
"But these creatures can also ADD to the amount of beauty in Creation too!"
[Kids jump up] YAAAY!!!
"There's something else though. It seems that even though sentient creatures can add or take away beauty from Creation, they CAN'T add any more beauty to God. God's alway full of beauty."
But Susie, what if the main goal of God is to experience an unsurpassably intense level of beauty? What if that's what made God REALLY, REALLY happy??
"It would mean that God reached that goal a long time ago"
So, would human beings be superfluous to that end?"
[Susie nods] "Yep. The most that sentient creatures could do is add or take away from the beauty God experiences in Creation."
But that's still cool, right?
"Sure. But..."
But what, Susie?
"If God really REALLY wants to experience an unsupassably intense level of beauty with the triune perrycorewhateverthingy...and we don't contribute to that at all...what does that MEAN?? Does that mean that we don't help God in making God really, really happy? That he'd be really really happy even if the bowl were EMPTY...I mean, even if Creation had none of God's beauty anymore?? What does that mean??"
[Looks directly at camera, eyebrow raised] Hmmm... Meaning. Hmmmm....
[Kids look at each other, kinda befuddled]
WELL, that's all the time we have, gang! I'll leave you to think this through, kids.
[kids laugh nervously]
Tune in next time when we talk about Constantinian Christianity, abortion, and the politization of American Christianity. Dr. Gregory Boyd will be our special guest. Until then, remember who to call when you theology needs a little shaking up.
[Kids scream] JUST CALL PAT! YAAAAAAAAY!
[Sesame Street outro]
Fin. | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/18/2005 4:11 AM (GMT -6) | | well, you're nothing if not creative mephi! Wonder where you got the UNIQUE creativity?
I wonder if anyone has creativity just like yours? I wonder if (just like earthly parents would) God
VALUES and (yep, I'm going to say it) benefits from increased enjoyment, love, and wonder
at your unique creative expression of how he originally gifted you when he knit you together in
your mother's womb.
Anyway, if the main concern is this idea of mutual influence. Yes. I think we deeply influence God
(whatever you gotta do with your theolgical categories sobeit)...and his love for us definitely
influences us. I can't imagine it any other way.
Maybe this is one of those things we can't figure out.
...from your fav. book of scripture...
Ecclesiastes 12:13The conclusion, when all has been heard, fear God and
keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
that's all I have to say about that.
~selah
"I used to worry that Heaven would be boring because it lasts so long. But then I remembered
God created everything. That must mean he created humor! Wow, I bet God has the best jokes!!
...I don't think heaven is boring anymore mom." -my son | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 10/18/2005 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | | OK, mephi, wonderful as this may be, is it not radically anti-incarnational? How do we fit this together with a God who rides up a hill to Jerusalem with longing and with tears? The two ideas don't seem to want to fit together to me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/18/2005 6:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph: unsurpassably intense experience of beauty via loving sociality is EXPRESSED...and experienced as an expression.
Jeff: The aesthetic quality (i.e., beauty) is perceived--even in suffering. I would think suffering might ADD to that beauty or at least add a MANNER of expressing it. At least it does for humans. Granted, it is only natural for beings who rightly crave harmony to wish that there BE no suffering. But when suffering occurs for contingent reasons, yet for benevolent ends, I would say even sacrificial suffering has a bitter-sweet aesthetic beauty to it.
I suspect that's one of the reasons even non-devout people enjoy wearing crosses as jewelry. That symbol just seems to exude a kind of beauty of meaning. Indeed, it seems to cry out for the possibility of a theodicy that might give our reason rest, if we could be see it in it's fullness.
Post Edited (jefscott) : 10/18/2005 6:18:16 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/18/2005 7:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph: What we MUST understand, however, is that though this aesthetic content does "add" to the total amount of beauty in existence that God can experience, it does NOTHING to "add" to God's SATISFACTION in beautiful experience. God's aesthetic satisfaction in beautiful experience is accomplished by God's relationship to Godself.
See what I mean?
Jeff: I'm certainly agreeing that if we never existed, God wouldn't have gone into depression. But if God can implement NOVEL ways of adding NEW kinds of aesthetic beauty, then they can be appreciated SIGNIFICANTLY for their novelty. Granted, the DEGREE of that new beauty may not exceed the DEGREE of the prior kinds of beauty.
And one thing that I think can't help but be significant (no pun intended) to the question of our significance, is that we are said to be ADOPTED by God to be BRETHREN of Christ, having as our OWN spirit the VERY SPIRIT of God, Himself.
Maybe novelty is the key, as opposed to degree. We're similar, in a sense. We relish certain novel experiences. But in retrospect, they may not be particularly more intense or significant in DEGREE as any other experiences we might have relished. Just wondering...
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/19/2005 6:09 AM (GMT -6) | | RIGHT. Novelty (or uniqueness) is key. NO ONE can touch God's heart like Mephi can. No one can move God like Tom does. No one makes God smile like you Jefscott. And no one knocks God's socks off like SK.
That's the dealeO
Think about it mephi. | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 10/19/2005 9:52 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...Starkman: Seems to me that the minute you enter contigency (ala creation), perspectivity kicks in: from God's self to/in God's self, unsurpassable beauty is experienced; from God's self to creation, unsurpassable beauty is not experienced (at least not in this current environment). Seems to me, at least.Kinda right. From God to Creation, unsurpassably intense experience of beauty via loving sociality is EXPRESSED... and experienced as an expression.
No, no, no...I didn't mean we don't experience unsurpassabl intense experiences (that which God expresses to us), but I've completely lost what the hek I did mean. (See, when I can't stay on this fool board long enough to concentrate and think, I can't even remember what the hek my name is!
"Happy birthday to me...happy birthday to me..." STARKMAN! That's it. That's my name. (Now, if I can only remember when my birthday is.)
Sorry about that, Meph. I got to go back and finish the other thread on God's aseity and FINISH IT!
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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