 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
kingsaint
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 80
| Posted 10/24/2003 6:04 AM (GMT -6) |   | I want to argue that the millennium in Revelation 20 is both after the second coming and before the final judgment.
A strong case can be made that the millennial passage is part of a larger block of material comprising 19:11-21:8. Adela Y. Collins, for example, outlines this material using the literary criterion "And I saw" into seven (an important number in Rev.) sections: (1) 19:11-16, (2) 19:17-18, (3) 19:19-21, (4) 20:1-3, (5) 20:4-10, (6) 20:11-15, and (7) 21:1-8. This is already evidence againt recapitulation.
Jesus the Divine Warrior returns in (1). That this is the second coming is clear because Rev. 12 (which is part of a block very similar to the one under discussion) already alluded to the death and ascension of Jesus. Notice also that the defeat of Satan by Michael in Rev. 12 is in heaven, whereas the defeat of Satan in (4) and (5) is on earth. This is also evidence againt recapitulation. (2) and (3) go on to describe Jesus' war with the forces of evil (notice the earthly combatants). (3) mentions only the beast and the false prophet. This is significant becasue these two, along with the dragon/Satan, form a sort of "unholy trinity" (cf. 16:12-16 where these three are involved with the preparations for the final battle and the consecutive treatment of them in 12:1-18 (dragon), 13:1-10 (beast), and 13:11-18 (beast/false prophet)). Therefore, (4), which only mentions the dragon, seems to be temporally connected to (3). This speaks against the recapitulation theory. Further proof of this is that when the dragon is thrown into the lake of fire, we are told that the beast and the false prophet were already there (Rev. 20:10).
(4) and (5) are temporally connected explicitly by the concept of the thousand years. It should be pointed out that (4) and (5) follow the same basic temporal sequence as Isaiah 24:21-23.
It could be argued that Rev. 20:4-6 is only an interlude meant only to give comfort to the persecuted. Four considerations argue against this. Firstly, there would be an awkward repitition at the end of verse 3 and the beginning of verse 7 if verses 4-6 were excised. Secondly, verse 7 does not begin with the formula "And I saw" which further strengthens the tie between verses 6 and 7. Thirdly, it is argued that the resurrection of the martyrs is only symbolic for their reigning in heaven. However, in a parallel vision , Rev. 6:9-11, the martyrs are aleady in heaven. Fourthly, we are told elsewhere that the saints will reign on earth (Rev. 5:9-10).
Finally, (5) and (6) are temporally connected by the concepts of the first and second resurrections.
One of the main critisms of pre-millennialsm is that everyone is already killed in (3), therefore (4)-(6) is a recapitulation since these assume people exist. Some find this so persuasive, and given that recapitulation is textually weak, they assume that Gog and Magog are spiritual entities. However, it should be remembered that (3) describes a battle (with locations identified--Rev. 16:16) and it would be odd for everyone in the world to be involved. Proof of this is the military descriptions of those involved (Rev. 19:18 and 19). Therefore, "the rest" of 19:21 may refer only to "the kings of the earth with there armies" of 19:19. Likewise, the addition of "the flesh of all" in 19:18 to the list of otherwise military descriptions is probably only hyperbole (a stock and trade of John, cf. 6:12-17 etc.).
It is also argued that Rev. 19:17-21 and Rev. 20:7-10 both use imagery from Ezekiel 38 and 39, therefore they describe the same event. However, why couldn't the descriptions of both battles draw from Ezekiel? Also, Ezekiel 38 and and 39 could be viewed as two prophecies. Therefore, Ezek. 39:17-20 mirrors Rev. 19:17-21, and Ezek. 38:1 and 22 mirror Rev. 20:7-10.
It should also be noted that the distinction between a messianic reign and the final consummation was not foreign to the world of John's time (cf. the Ascension of Isaiah or Ezekiel for that matter). The thousand year scheme could have a rationale either on the 6000-1000 year scheme (afterall 7 is an important number) which borrows from Genesis and Psalm 90:4, as does 2 Peter 3:8, or on the Adamic thousand year scheme based on Edenic paradise (cf. the imagery of paradise at the end of Rev.). What is important is both these schemes were viewed as future time periods.
Perhaps it is also possible to make historical arguments for pre-millennialsm by connecting early premillenialists with the author of Revelation (or even Jesus himself, since Papias mentions an "unwritten tradition" coming from the Saviour which contains the idea of an eartly millennium). This could be done I suppose by examining the careers of such figures as Papias, Irenaeus, Lactantius, Justin Martyr, Cyprian, Tertullian et. al.
Notice, I did not mention the "rapture". Pre-millennialsm has been unjustly saddled with this what I take to be misguided position. The saints are protected through tribulation not necessarily from tribulation. "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil".
"Nobody who omits doing good works nowadays does so in order not to be tempted to become self-righteous; he omits it because it is easier."
--Philip Merlan, "Toward the Understanding of Kierkegaard" | | Back to Top | | |
 |
kingsaint
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 80
| Posted 10/31/2003 6:11 PM (GMT -6) | | I suppose I could have spent my time more wisely. That is a fair criticism. I guess what rubs me the wrong way about the millennium issue is the constellation of ideas that tends come with those who deny my position. However, being clear about the time flow and location of events in that portion of Revelation under discussion (19:11-21:8) can have beneficial christological implications, especially for the Warfare worldview. Just as the rapture, as it is popularly understood, tends, in my opinion, to lead to a spiritual laxity.
Yes, I don't care to argue that the 1000 years are literally 365x1000 days, that's not what is important to me. That it is "symbolic" may be proved by the fact that 1000 is 10x10x10, a cube, as was the Holy of Holies. (144000=12x12x1000 is also "symbolic".) I'll stop because I'm starting to sound like Dan Brown!
"Nobody who omits doing good works nowadays does so in order not to be tempted to become self-righteous; he omits it because it is easier."
--Philip Merlan, "Toward the Understanding of Kierkegaard" | | Back to Top | | |
|
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 11/1/2003 2:24 AM (GMT -6) | | | Jesus is coming back. I am going to die. The "hows" and the "whys" and the "wheres" I prefer to leave to God... | | Back to Top | | |
|
timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 11/3/2003 9:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Kingsaint
I agree with you that it is important that we understand Revelation and what on earth is going on with the Millenium and stuff like that. I for one don't however. Try reading some of Rick Joyner's (Morning Star Ministries) stuff. He's very prophetic and insightful and has a lot to say about the end times.
I think it is important to try and get our head around the deeper things and mysteries of God. After all, Jesus tells us to be able to read the signs of the times. We should get to the point when we are not surprised by things that happen, because we have such a grasp of the future! 9/11 shouldn't have been such a shock...
Anyway.
I think the millenium is to do with rewards in heaven. We get to reign with Christ after we've overcome. Those Christians who don't overcome (the ones locked out of the wedding feast) don't. They don't necessarily go to hell, but they miss out on the rewards.
Anyway, that was all a bit random.
love
timlings | | Back to Top | | |
|
timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 11/4/2003 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey
Yeah! I reckon that as we get closer, it will get more obvious that it's coming soon.
Rick Joyner reckons that we've got at least 40 years left to go. Birth pains come before birth, and over history there has been an acceleration of their frequency. It used to be ever couple of centuries [big war, fall of empire, etc], then every century, then every couple of decades. But now we are having huge world shaking events pretty close to each other. I think 9/11 was definitely a birth-pain.
But there we go. It should inspire us to holiness and evangelism, not passivity though!
The number thing is interesting. In Joshua it says that the people followed the ark through the Jordan at around 2000 measures [need to look this up]. Which makes me think that approx 2000 years after Jesus is what we've got. Probably after his ascension I would imagine.
love
timlings | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 11/4/2003 11:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, it's already been about 2000 years since Christ's ascension, so according to your calculations He should be returning any minute now. But, I still think some things have yet to happen, though. Like for instance, the whole thing about how those without the mark of the beast on their hands won't be able to purchase food.
Did you know that in some places, like Japan, people have already been implementing the use of bar codes implanted underneath the skin of the hand? It's scanned like a credit card, and that's how people can purchase things, and it prevents credit card theft. I suspect that that technology will have to spread throughout the whole industrialized world before Christ's return, in order to follow the order of Biblical prophecy. But if this is true, this means that we Christians will have to make a choice between eating or proclaiming Jesus as our Lord and Savior. For if we choose Jesus, we won't be able to buy food, because we won't be given the mark of the beast on our hands. And for that to take place, a world ruler who is opposed to the worship of Christ would have to be the one who dictates that law into effect. He or she will be a persecutor of Christians and will demand that we deny Christ or else not get the mark to buy food.
Some would argue that Christians will be raptured before this event, but do we really know for sure, either way? A whole heck of a lot of Christians were martyred after Christ's ascension, and the Bible says that a whole heck of a lot MORE Christians will be martyred before Christ's return. Will we die of starvation among other things?
Also, going back to the whole world ruler thing - I don't see that happening any time soon. There are so many different countries with so many different kinds of governments right now, that it would take something huge before all of them would submit to one single ruler.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
|
timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 11/4/2003 10:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress
[what a great name!]
It will have been about 2000 years by 2030 or so. So we've got a while...
I've heard someone say about the mark of beast thing is that we don't need to worry about the mark but rather make sure that we're not worshipping the beast. That's how one gets the mark y'see. The beast stands for political power sort of stuff, and the love of money. Hmmm!
I don't know much about the rapture, but what I do know is that we go through the great tribulation, not escape it. Noah still went through the flood, but was kept safe in it all.
The martyr thing is happening now. More Christians were killed for their faith in the last century than in all the other centuries put together. Scary stuff really.
I also don't know much about the world ruler thang. There have been many anti-christs already though.
Anyway
timlings | | Back to Top | | |
|
streetpreacher
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 11/7/2003 4:43 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
Why think the thousand years mentioned twice in Revelations is literal, when nothing else in the book is?
Why worry about this any more than you'd worry about the technical details of your future death?
I just DON'T GET the modern apocalytpic mindset.
Doc
With all due respect, I am a historical pre-millenialist (and I believe I'm correct in asserting that one of the church fathers who was discipled by John was pre-millenial as well, although his name escapes me at the moment) and I don't feel WORRIED at all. I simply believe that is the literal interpretation of Scripture. That is what drove me to open theism as well; it makes the most literal sense of the entire body of Scripture. Maybe you are confusing historical pre-millenialism with modern dispensationalism popularized by Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, Van Impe (scary), etc.?
As I understand, you are post-millenial, so you are definitely not an "agnostic" in regards to eschatology. Let me ask you, do you feel you have reached your position on the millenium based on sound exegesis or do you feel the postmillenial view is being forced upon you by the Open View interpretation?
I also find that some of the modern post-millenial proponents have a faulty view of church government (e.g. C. Peter Wagner) and would like to drag the church back into a Catholic form of church government based on so-called modern "apostles." Then there are the reconstructionists like Rushdoony and Gary North who would like to burn herectics and stone gays. BTW, North is a post-millenial reconstructionist and I find his views much more "apocalyptic" than pre-mills. I'll try not to paint you with that brush, Greg 
BTW, I visited the site a couple of years ago, but wandered away... I had begun a discussion with you (which I'm sure you don't remember) about God's judgment of nations and never finished it. I apologize if that came across as rude.
Been listening to some of your sermons recently and would really like to hear a more indepth treatment from you on "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit" as work subsequent salvation.
Today Lucifer is probably surveying the church just as Bonaparte did China. One can almost behold the fear in his eyes as he thinks of the Church's unmeasured potential and growls, "Let the Church sleep! If she wakes, she will shake the world." Is not the Church the sleeping giant of today?.... - Leonard Ravenhill | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 1:02 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|