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Pentemento
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 16

Posted 10/21/2003 6:02 AM (GMT -6)

I know all the arguments against pre-destination. Even in my own mind, it doesn't 'hold up'. BUT - there is a nagging feeling and thought I get that it just might actually turn out to BE true anyway. I have wondered why, if I am 'saved', I don't ever seem to get any sense of 'being' saved, why I continually struggle to feel loved by God, why in spite of all my bringing thoughts captive, all my turning my feelings over to 'truth' etc. the 'splinter' that is in my mind is that I am not 'chosen'. That seems more like the logical explanation for what has occurred in my spirit all my life. It just fits. Sometimes, it is almost a relief to 'try it on.' Then the struggling ends for a minute, and there is finally peace. But I take that thought captive, and the struggle starts again. Gettin' pretty tired.
Pentemento
"the artist repents" (and repents...and repents...and repents)

Pentemento
"The artist repents"

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 10/21/2003 7:40 AM (GMT -6)

Pentemento, I want to apologize upfront. I'm on the run and probably shouldn't address this important issue in such a rush... I just wanted you to know someone was thinking about your question and praying for you :)

For what its worth...
love,
selah

quote:
Originally posted by Pentemento

I know all the arguments against pre-destination. Even in my own mind, it doesn't 'hold up'.

selah:
Well, for me, that would be my first line of defense (since the battle is in your mind--and you said itdoesn't 'hold up'--why fight to make it 'hold up'??)

quote:
BUT - there is a nagging feeling and thought I get that it just might actually turn out to BE true anyway.

selah:
I'd be interested in what you hear/feel precisely. Does this come in the form of accusations/confusion? Maybe you could ask yourself "what if..." and finish that sentence? In my opinion, the fact that you are HERE wondering is pretty stong evidence that you care, love and seek God. I might even ask "How can you NOT BE CHOSEN with a heart like that?"

quote:

I have wondered why, if I am 'saved', I don't ever seem to get any sense of 'being' saved, why I continually struggle to feel loved by God, why in spite of all my bringing thoughts captive, all my turning my feelings over to 'truth' etc. the 'splinter' that is in my mind is that I am not 'chosen'.

selah:
I see two things here. One, it seems as though you are looking for a confirmation through a "sense" or "feeling" (remember the LDS church looks for the burning in the bosom feeling too) In my opinion, we can not go on feelings, they can be deceitful (as in the LDS example). The second thing I see is that it seems like the "splinter in your mind" is this thought that you are not chosen, but once again I see you ACTING like one of the chosen...by seeking HIM? That's proof enough for most predestination thinkers...maybe it can be proof enough for you too? (do you know people who believe in predestination
who walk continually with the "feeling" of God's presence/love?)

quote:
That seems more like the logical explanation for what has occurred in my spirit all my life. It just fits. Sometimes, it is almost a relief to 'try it on.' Then the struggling ends for a minute, and there is finally peace. But I take that thought captive, and the struggle starts again. Gettin' pretty tired.
Pentemento
"the artist repents" (and repents...and repents...and repents)

selah:
Unfortunately I don't know you Pentemento. Though I would love to. I hope others will write and share similar experiences. One thing I do know is that YOu are not alone. And, that you are doing the right thing by asking questions and hanging onto Christ (with all that is within you)!

(blessings and blessings and blessings and exceeding blessings!!

"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."

Scout Cloud Lee

Blood Washed Heretic
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167

Posted 10/21/2003 7:42 AM (GMT -6)

Welcome, Pentemento!

This doesn't really address your predestination issue, but if you're struggling with feeling unloved by God, I would highly recommend the book THE SEARCH FOR SIGNIFICANCE by Robert McGee. He writes from a neutral stance theologically (I can't tell whether he's Calvinist, Arminian, Open, or something else), but he addresses issues of unworthiness and insecurity in the glorious light of what Christ does on the cross! It's a great read, and challenges in a straightforward way the lies most of us come to believe about ourselves.

It could help in a more practical way with your struggles. We here, as well as others you trust, can help as much as we can with the head and heart issues, but you will eventually need to make your mind up for yourself whether or not you are covered by His blood. It is my strong inclination that you are. We are all precious to our Father, even those of us who don't know it yet.

In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 10/21/2003 8:21 AM (GMT -6)

no time to read other replies, but generally predestination is an unfalsifiable hypothesis.

The question is whether there are other aspects of Christian beliefs are not consistent with such a belief in predestination.

dlw

Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

Pentemento
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 16

Posted 10/22/2003 5:59 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. Although I am a very passionate and joyful person - I love the arts, music, etc. - when I try to really enter in to my own 'savedness' it is just flat. It's like it just doesn't fit into the rest of me. It's not that I don't feel worthy, or think I'm a worm or whatever, it's not that I don't think God has good intentions(!) So I start thinking maybe He really does mean what it says in Romans 8:29,30. Maybe that is one truth we don't want to see. Because it doesn't fit in with our idea that we always have a choice.
I do get the contradictions, I am Biblically literate and can argue theology with most folks if I chose (I am a pastor's kid and attended Christian - non-Calvinist, by the way - schools through college.) I also find I could care less about 'theology' for the most part - I think we ALL have it so wrong it is probably going to be laughable when we find out what the real deal is.
Just being real here. I see other people who are 'saved' and have this big, life changing experience, I hear about others who have such deep and meaningful relational experiences with God and the Holy Spirit - I do believe it happens and that God interacts in a experiential way with His followers. But mostly God seems to want to use me in a real practical way - which is so far removed from my kinda ethereal and almost mystical 'real' self. So I wonder, am I just here to SERVE the chosen ones? Maybe that's ok too.

Pentemento
"The artist repents"

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 10/22/2003 6:15 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Pentemento
So I wonder, am I just here to SERVE the chosen ones?

Yes you are. Send me your money, that would serve me. Big Smile

My mother-in-law was a missionary for 34 years and all her life struggled with feelings of not being saved. That's why we're told to train up our mind and take every thought captive and NOT to train up our emotions and take every feeling captive.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Mayflower
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445

Posted 10/22/2003 2:09 PM (GMT -6)

Amen...

Laika wrote:

quote:
. . . That's why we're told to train up our mind and take every thought captive and NOT to train up our emotions and take every feeling captive.

<><

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 10/23/2003 6:52 AM (GMT -6)

If predestination is true, there's nothing you can do about it anyways. Even if you "felt" saved, it just might turn out that God predestined you to have that feeling, though you are in fact destined for hell. (Plenty of people have "felt" very saved but then fell away -- revealing, to the Calvinist -- that they were never elect in the first place). There's utimately NO assurance.

We all live, and HAVE to live, AS THOUGH absolute predestination is not true. And this, I think, is one very good argument against it.

I agree with others so far on this thread, Pentemento, that peace will come as you take thoughts "captive." You can't control "feelings", but you CAN learn to contro the internal messages, images, voices etc... that give rise to those feelings. You must let GODS WORD have more credibility to you than any feelings, as Selah suggests. And his promise to you is that, regardless of how you feel, if you trust in Christ, you are saved.

Get every thought in your brain to line up with this -- cease being "doube minded" (Ja 1), and you will in time gradually "feel" it. But don't SHOOT for the feeling. SHOOT for truth in the mind.

nice having you on the board,

Greg

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 10/23/2003 7:20 AM (GMT -6)

Alternatively, predestination doesn't imply anything for how we should live. It has been manipulated in the past, as illustrated by MR, by many to convince others that certain changes are inevitable or never going to happen as a means of producing/stifling collective action.

It has also been used as an emotional balm, but Jesus' deals with the problems of anxiety better and counsels us to not worry about things we cannot change/affect about the future.

So part of being a Christian and shining our light in this world is making judgments about what things we can change and what things we are unlikely to change, but this is quite autonomous from a belief in EDF/predestination.
dlw

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 10/23/2003 7:21 AM (GMT -6)

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 10/23/2003 7:44 AM (GMT -6)

any reason Doc reposted his exact earlier post?
dlw

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 10/23/2003 7:46 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by DLW

any reason Doc reposted his exact earlier post?
dlw

time travel Eyebrow

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Andrew_
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 9

Posted 10/27/2003 6:11 AM (GMT -6)

Pentemento:

I don't know if I'll be of any help, but I'll sure try.

First off: It's natural to feel as though you're far from God, or to feel as though you aren't loved by God. But I can assure you, neither of those are really the case.

Think of a husband/wife or a best friend or a parent. There are times when you don't feel like they love you. And granted, you may have every reason to feel that way. But regardless of how you feel about it - your doubts, your questions, etc. - it doesn't change the fact of the matter: they love you anyway. Nothing you think or feel will change that. So it is with God. Regardless of how you feel, HE STILL LOVES YOU!

Someone sent this to me a while back when I was struggling with similar problems. Maybe you can use it as well. Just remember to substitute yourself in the sentence when it is generalizing or speaking of another person. Here goes:
I am God's Child (John 1:12)
I am Christ's friend (John 15:5)
I have been justified (Romans 5:1)
I am united with the Lord and one with Him in Spirit (1 Corinthians
6:17)
I have been bought with a price: I belong to God (1Corinthians 6:20)
I am a member of Christ's body (1 corinthians 12:27)
I am a saint (Ephesians 1:5)
I have been redeemed and forgiven of all my sin (colossians 1:14)
I AM COMPLETE IN CHRIST (Colossians 2:10)
I am born of God and the evil one cannot touch me (1John 5:18)
I am Hidden in Christ in God (Colossians 3:3)
I cannot be separated from the love of God (Romans 8:35,38-39)
I am a citizen of Heaven ((phillipians 3:20)
I have not been given a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind (2Tim 1:7)
I am the salt of the earth (Matthew 5:13)
I am a branch of the true vine, a channel of his life (John 15:1,5)
I am a personal witness of Christ (Acts 1:8)
I can approach God with freedom and confidence (Ephesians 3:12)
I am God's workmanship (Ephesians 2:10)
I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength (phillipians 4:13)

Andrew

Pentemento
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 16

Posted 11/4/2003 9:29 AM (GMT -6)

I guess here's the thing - I would never committ to marriage, for example, without ANY emotional confirmation whatsoever. I could not truly enter into it with only my mind. Now, granted, feelings come and go, that's normal and perfectly fine. But if I NEVER had any feeling of emotional committment from a future spouse, I would run the other way. What Jesus asks us to committ to is far more serious than even marriage. And I just don't buy that He created emotions and then would refuse to communicate to us through them. It doesn't add up. I'm not talking about black/white here, depending only on emotion or DEPENDING on emotion at all. Just emotion as a natural part of any deep committed relationship.

Pentemento
"The artist repents"

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 11/4/2003 10:23 AM (GMT -6)

Pentemento,
(I'm sorry but I always want to write Pimento! Big Smile

) Anyway, my small group is right now studying a book that deals with this subject. It's called, Reaching For The Invisible God by Philip Yancy. We've only done up to chapter nine so far, but I can tell this is a really great book for dealing with this issue. The author gives examples of how many of the heroes of faith struggled with these exact same feelings of distance from God, and struggling with doubt, and how to relate to God as spirit, while we normally relate to humans and the world through our five physical senses. You might want to check it out.

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 11/5/2003 12:45 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Pentemento

I guess here's the thing - I would never committ to marriage, for example, without ANY emotional confirmation whatsoever. I could not truly enter into it with only my mind. Now, granted, feelings come and go, that's normal and perfectly fine. But if I NEVER had any feeling of emotional committment from a future spouse, I would run the other way. What Jesus asks us to committ to is far more serious than even marriage. And I just don't buy that He created emotions and then would refuse to communicate to us through them. It doesn't add up. I'm not talking about black/white here, depending only on emotion or DEPENDING on emotion at all. Just emotion as a natural part of any deep committed relationship.

Pentemento,

Hello again,
I wanted to respond yesterday but didn't have time (again!)
This morning I listened to Greg's sermon from Nov 2 and thought of you--have you heard it?

http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2003/2003-11-02_Boyd_Feelings.mp3

(hopefully that link works--I haven't a real clue how to navigate the internet...ha)

Also, this morning I was doing research on natural evil and ended up reading an old thread that touched on these "feeling" issues. I haven't a clue what the thread has to do with natural evil, but it may be helpful to read the applicable posts on feelings... (again, if the link thing works Wink

)

http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=154&SearchTerms=natural,evil

Gotta run, blessings,
love
selah

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