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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 10/29/2003 10:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Well, the question is, "how does it fit into the open view?" is it any different from the traditional understanding that we somehow inherit adam's lost relationship with God? | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 10/30/2003 5:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BJS
In my opinion, the only sin we are responsible for is our own.
OK, that's fine as far as it goes, I'm happy with that. But, it does not explain why every single person in the history of creation (except Jesus) has sinned. | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 10/30/2003 9:26 AM (GMT -6) | | A good question
I think it's not necessarily related to the OV what one believes about original sin...but I suspect it's part of the package.
I reckon that it's all to do with being 'in Adam' and being 'in Christ'. In Adam, we are naturally disposed to sin. In Christ, we are naturally disposed to righteousness. The choice is ultimately ours, but if we're not in Christ then we don't really have the option not to sin.
Not really well thought through, but hey
timlings | | Back to Top | | |
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 10/30/2003 2:12 PM (GMT -6) | | If sin is defined as "missing the mark" or anything short of perfection, then it is my hunch that the universality of sin (i.e., "original sin") is a metaphysical given. This is based on the conclusion (on biblical, philosophical, and experiential grounds) that only God is perfect. The only way God could create sinless (perfect) sentient beings would be to create mere extensions of Godself. To the extent that a creature is given some degree of autonomy, it is inevitable that such a creature will miss the mark. This does not mean that any particular sin is inevitable. We are still responsible for sin. Moreover, although God is responsible for creating the conditions that inevitably lead to sin (by creating us), God also provided the solution to the problem.
That's my take.
JET
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/1/2003 10:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Why have all sinned? Because all have chosen to do so. Romans 1, 2, and 3 make this clear.
Does this not seem a little strange to you, that we are all given free will by God, yet every single one of us uses that will to sin? | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 11/2/2003 6:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Interesting, interesting!
Jet, I would define sin as rebellion against God and independence. It's rather different to 'missing the mark'. That's more of a muslim definition, where sin is just a mistake rather than a serious sickness and problem. By your definition, is it a sin if I get a maths question wrong? Or burn the cooking? If I burnt the dinner "on purpose" then that might be a different matter.
I would agree that only God is good. But even God says that other people are perfect (God calls Job "perfect"!), and commands us to be perfect (Jesus in Sermon on the Mount, and Paul in his letters). Perfection I think is more to do with completeness and wholeness, and doesn't necessarily imply absolute sinlessness. Job wasn't sinless, but was described as a perfect man.
Also, is sin inevitable? I think it is for us, being 'in adam', but
that's not to do with us having free-will. I think there is something else going on. Otherwise salvation wouldn't require us to get born again.
I think MarkPorter does have a good point. Why is it that everyone does sin. We are all responsible for our sin, as it is our fault. But if everyone does it, why is it so bad? And what if we can't help it?
Thinking outloud here...
Jesus says that whoever sins is a slave to sin. That's quite key I think. The first sin we make gives the devil a foothold, into which he squirms himself into lots of different aspects of our lives.
Somewhere else in the bible it says "and who hasn't sinned". Romans declares that "all have sinned". So we can agree that it is a universal issue.
Maybe it's like a really hard computer game - even if you're really "good" at it, you eventually lose a life and mess up. Hmm. Except that's more of an islamic view...all you need is more training and teaching, as people are inherently bad.
Maybe it's actually to do with the heart. Sin is the fruit of what's actually going inside, and we need a new heart and a new spirit in order to do good and follow God. When Adam was around, he was "innocent", meaning that his heart didn't naturally incline towards good or evil. But when he ate the fruit, his heart became naturally inclined towards evil. We have inherited that, because we are all "in adam". If you put a bunch of people together without any restraints they turn pretty bad pretty quick.
However, as Christians, we've got a new heart and so we can be inclined towards good. We don't have to even try! The whole point of this life is to develop and grow in that grace, to have a transformed and renovated heart.
Just some thoughts really.
love
timlings | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/4/2003 2:50 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 11/4/2003 10:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the links POW
Interesting stuff...
Augustinian original sin = we are all guilty for adams' sin, hence infant baptism and other dodgy doctrines.
I would agree with the orthodox view that we suffer the consequences of that sin (i.e. death). Now here's a thought: what other consequences do we inherit? Is death the only thing? I suspect it may be, but perhaps we don't realise how bad it is. Could it be that death means that we experience decay in everything we do as humans (families, bodies, morals, communities, work etc.) unless we get the new life of God.
Hmm.
love
timlings | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/6/2003 1:02 AM (GMT -6) | | (BTW - Nothing not right about infant Baptism.)
Here's a follow up article to what you were wondering, about the effects of sin. Point being, that if you are going to understand salvation you need to know what problem is being fixed....
ORIGINAL SIN ACCORDING TO ST. PAUL
www.romanity.org/htm/rom.10.en.original_sin_according_to_st._paul.01.htm
quote:
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Fallen Creation
The Justice of God and Law
The Destiny of Man and Anthropology
The Destiny of Man
Anthropology of St. Paul
Synthetic Observations
Concluding Remarks
(I just happened to look at this thread. I'm "off board" now.) | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/6/2003 4:26 AM (GMT -6) | | | hmmm, I don't really like passing as much stuff over to satan as he does in that article.... | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 11/7/2003 12:32 PM (GMT -6) | | POW
Great article. It's got me thinking a lot.
This guy's view about Jesus coming to save us from death means that the resurrection just makes so much sense. We inherit death, not 'original sin'.
Need to think some more though.
Any markporter, why don't you like passing over so much to satan? It makes more sense! What if it's true?
anyway
timlings | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/10/2003 6:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
This guy's view about Jesus coming to save us from death means that the resurrection just makes so much sense. We inherit death, not 'original sin'.
same difference, surely....those who are dead live in sin.
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