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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/15/2003 5:12 PM (GMT -6) |   | boyd, it's a pleasure for me to write this to you. Though i feel quite unworthy to respond however i do feel obliged to continue with this discussion.
Yes God could choose to love everyone, but He doesn't. That in no way banishes the idea that God is love in any manner. For God is not only love, but He is also Holy, Isa 6 and just ps 95:6. But I fear we won't be able to see eye to eye on this thought for it is of my opinion that God's love flows from His goodness. I know you would disagree, but I fail to see support why, though it is probably my ignorance.
About Calvin being compassionate, i do not know how you can access such a thought. I turn this around and ask how you will be viewed 400 years from now when all people have are your writings. For example some things on this site have probably portrayed a negative uncompassionate portrayal of us all. And different arguments and debates in which we seem to get into will be remembered largley. For example Giesler at the ETS came off as sounding like a complete jerk. And yet am i to believe that this "snapshot" in which i saw him is what hi character is like? Likewise different sessions that happened and the whole fueding against Open Theism, i was rather disappointed to see how many of the "scholars" handled themselves. I saw in large a bunch of intellegent people losing all sense of humility and humbleness and yet am i to processes that they fail to be compassionate to people? Calvin was a person, with his flaws just like us. And yet to hold him to some higher standard and condemn him for the way in which he came across in his writings is utter foolishness. There are numerous accounts of Calvin's love and compassion for people and would you argue agains the idea that actions speak louder than words? All I am trying to say, and by no means justifying his actions as correct, is that we still need to realize he was sinner and we need to remember our place of compassion on him. I don't know if this is where the original argument originated from, but believe it or not, i've been thinking about it and that's what i've come to conclude. Let's be all the more thankful for God's great grace that even covers over our sins. And i hope that while condemning him, we ourselves are not storing up wrath upon our heads. perhaps it's a good reminder to remain humble and learn in humility and take Christ as our ultimate role model not some fallible, corrupted, totally depraved man. Calvin himself admitted on his death bed that he was a dirty rotten sinner.
Now away from the vapid things. the whole thing about God not being the first cause of our sin, great stuff. Frankly, it still confuses me to a large degree. What do you think of Augustine's view on it? I'm assuming you know his theory of the will and God as being just in His punishments and rewards, yadda, yadda.
The problem of evil, which can be tied into the problem of sin is still a major! problem for all Christians. For even in the free will view evil and sin can be traced back to God. For all things come from God. Man's own will even came from God and so did his free will. To sin is to be led astray by desires, well where did desires come from? Even the desire to sin needed to come from God unless you want to say that this desire arose apart from God. But perhaps, and maybe i'm too naive, no one would truly believe that something originated apart from God desiring it to be so, lest there be another autonmous being in the universe. I don't know what do you think? And yet in spite of whichever view you claim to hold, no one would ever say that God is the author of sin. And yet sin exists and nothing exists apart from God, Acts 17. So how do we reason such an idea? i don't know if we can.
"We know that God is sovereign because we know that God is God. Therefore we must conclude that God foreordained sin. What else can we conclude? We must conclude that God's decision to allow sin to enter the world was a good decision. This is not to say that our sin is really a good thing, but merely that God's allowing us to do sin, which is evil, is a good thing." And why is that? I would simply say it's because God's glory was more manifest and more evident in the sending of His Son. In this way, God is more glorified and we are more humbled. Which should be the goal of all Christians, less of us and more of Him.
Another thought that i wanted to run by you is i have a problem saying that the end of my salvation lies in my hands. I just don't see how that can be. To me that causes a lot of self-reliance and I don't want to rely on myself for the end of my salvation. I find more comfort in a God who is infinitly above me breaking down the barriers that are keeping me from being saved and saving me of His own will, not mine.
Well sorry this is long. I hope we can continue in this. I have some bumps that i can't get around in the thoughts of the OV and any help you can offer me would be greatly appreciated.
By Grace Alone,
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/16/2003 5:29 AM (GMT -6) | | K Lakia you're right. Guess we had all better start burning our heritics so we can have killed more than the holy, supreme, sovereign John Calvin. I suppose you condemn God as well for sentencing the death of heretics in the OT. I also suppose that had you lived back then, you would have never fallen prey to such a henious sin. For you must be over and above such a depraved life.
borg
p.s. it is possible to liken to one's theology while rejecting some if not many of their actions. I hope 400 years from now you are not viewed as a selfish, pigheaded, self-centered, bigot who, because you sinned, NEVER did anything good for the church and considered to be the devil himself incarnate.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/16/2003 5:52 AM (GMT -6) | | thanks Laika, obviously you have never mis-spelled a word in your life. I'm glad you seem to such a holy person. This is my last response to you as I do not wish to carry on a conversation (if it can even be labeled a conversation) as the like. I'm here to learn, to learn about the OV in contrast to my Calvinistic tendencies and hopefully edify myself not only in knowledge but also in Christ and such responses as I have recieved from you and given to you, are no longer edifying to myself nor to the church. Everything we do is suppose to be for the Glory of God and such quarelling and homs aren't getting us anywhere, and I've realized my ability to carry on a civilized convo with you is next to impossible.
In Him,
borg
ps Dr. Boyd or anyone else, I would love to carry on this conversation with you all.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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wondering04
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 12/25/2003 2:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Pentemento, seems that your original post got lost in the mix of a debate about Calvanism.I know you posted a bit over a month ago about this problem of free will. I too have had a hard time with free will, and to be honest, still have a problem with it. For me it seems that FREE will is awfully EXPENSIVE for the victim. I grew up in a home filled with so much abuse that I ended up giving up on God when I was 8, and spent 40 years in active rebellion against God and things of God. I would go so far as to say I hated God. Was furious at God, and decided that praying to the wall next to my bed netted better results than praying to God. Frankly, I still sort of feel that way, that praying to the wall nets better results.
When I started trying to sort out God again, well meaning people pointed out that what happened to me was God's will. I often wondered why a so-called loving God could allow abuse to happen. They came up with this idea of free will. Kind of struck me like fingernails on a blackboard. I WAS NOT GIVEN THE FREE WILL TO NOT BE ABUSED. All their comments of free will only roused my ire against God even more. I too felt like some sort of pawn in God's kingdom. He seemed to love and care more about the abuser than the abused. When the only thing you ever asked God was to stop your father from hurting you and God did not answer, then what good was God? So much for His love of children.
Add to that the concept of God's sovereignty and I would cringe. Once I had a miscarriage and someone kindly informed me that it was God's will, and that he meant this for good. grrrrr. I wanted nothing to do with this sort of God. Then the other platitude that people would spout is that God can use my past so that I can help other people. Yes, I do use my past to help others but His recruiting system stinks. If he wants helpers for his kingdom there are much nicer ways to recruit helpers. There is no way to use pat statements to ease the pain of your question, no theological argument will do.
A few things that I have finally realized is that I had to forgive those who hurt me, it was either that or carry them around with me forever. That forgiveness was not for them, but for me.
I also realized that I too had done many things that hurt people over the years, that I too committed many sins, and that I too needed forgiveness. And given the scriptures, even a tiny sin was offensive to God. Forgiving my abusers did not absolve my abusers from their actions, but it did take some burdens off of my back.
I also spent years exploring many different alternative religions, and none filled any void that I had, Christianity is the best option. Reading the Bible from cover to cover began to show me that there was some sort of plan behind all that happened. Perhaps there is a plan in our lives, at least that would be comforting if it is true.
I often wonder if God had intervened in my past, if things would have been different in the choices I made that were not good. I don't so much mind God testing us as adults, but when I see children hurting and know how much I hurt as a child I find it very difficult to trust God.
Even to today I have an uneasy alliance with God. I do not want to call attention to myself from Him. He may be as arbitrary as my earthly father was and as dangerous. I fail pretty much in faith and trust, so therefore cannot please God as that seems to be what He most desires. Would be nice to think of God as abba, Father, but I don't know if I want a Father God, perhaps judge and lawgiver is more comfortable. Right now I am just grateful for salvation, but do not plan to ask God for things or reach out to Him.
I also know that if there was not free will we would not be able to freely choose to love Him. But one question that still troubles me is that if he could stop the earth and turn back time, could he not control some of the pain inflicted by his creation on other parts of his creation.
Next pat answer to the above is that when I was being hurt, God cried with me. Whoopeee, as if that would help, maybe a sense of comfort would help. That he hated the sin does not help either, he could have stopped the sin if He cared.
Yes, Adam and Eve brought in sin, but He is supposed to be God Almighty. Would that He would use some of his power to help his creations.
As you can see I too struggle with this question and I hope that with the passing of time you sorted it out somehow. If so, I would love to hear what you resolved.
Heather
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Tom
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| Posted 12/25/2003 5:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Heather-
I'm very sorry those you trusted abused and wounded you. I'm very glad you're on the path of forgiveness and freedom.
Can I ask a question? Do you have kids?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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wondering04
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 12/25/2003 6:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, I have three children, but I waited to have children until I got a lot of my past sorted out, I refused to have kids until I knew that I would not perpetuate my past on them. Fortunately my kids know they are loved and safe. They have a good relationship with God, not one filled with doubt and distrust.
I really think that what happens when one is abused is that certain areas are damaged that make it impossible to trust God. When abuse occurs with someone like a father or mother, and I had abuse from both, I think basic trust is demolished.
As it is, I parent pretty much by doing the opposite of what my parents did to me. Seems to work.
Heather | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/25/2003 11:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Heather: As it is, I parent pretty much by doing the opposite of what my parents did to me. Seems to work.
Tom: I'm so glad to hear it. You spoke of being unable even now, however, to relate to God as a "Father." I was wondering whether or not your becoming a parent for YOUR kids, and knowing how as a good parent YOU want to relate to your kids has made it easier for you to relate to God as the supremely loving Father. If your parents were bad examples, where did you then go to form an understanding of what a good parent is when you began raising your own kids? And has that helped your relationship with God at all?
Merry Christmas,
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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wondering04
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 12/26/2003 2:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Tom,
I hope you had a Merry Christmas as well. We had a quiet day, something that is rare with three children who have friends and activities.
I once actually had an abortion because I was afraid that I would be like my parents. Before I had my kids I made myself a promise that I would not do to them what my parents did to me. As a child I knew what I wanted my ideal parents to do, and somehow I try to mirror that, with modifications. My kids are not spoiled and I do have reasonable expectations of them. I do not let them have the run of the house and do expect accountability from them. Now that I have two teenage boys and one pre-teen daughter, when I am uncertain if a behavior is "normal" I check it out with other parents. If they too have similar problems with their kids then I know that it is a phase. I really have no sense of what is really normal for a kid because I never had that as a child.
Recently my girl has started rolling her eyes, and projecting attitude. Seems that that is "normal" for an 11 year old girl. Knowing that it is probably hormonal, I still deal with it, but in a different way. In this case I reminded her that the law tells me I have to put food in her mouth, clothes on her back, a roof over her head and education. It does not say that I have to take her to birthday parties, allow play dates and sleepovers and movies and things like that. I tell her that attitudes could seriously curtail her pleasures. If I was at my childhood home and I tried that, I would be severely bruised and battered. So I count it a blessing that my kids do feel safe enough to experiment with "normal" behaviors.
Does it help me to see how God wants a relationship with me? Not really. I honestly don't know if He really does want one with me. If He does, He sure has a funny way of showing it. He did not protect me, I have no sense of Him, about the only tangible thing there is is the Word of God which I do read and study. My prayers fall into the void, and I am basically only able to trust, and that is only at the assurance of my pastor, that my sins have been forgiven and I have been saved. I often wonder if God isn't shaking his head and saying that he should have made an exclusionary clause for me, that I somehow squeeked in on a technicality.
I know that it must be a comforting thought that there is a God who loves one. I know that in the Bible it says that, so I guess it is ok to pretend that that is a fact. I often wonder, in retropsect, that because I was not saved as a child that maybe that was why God did nothing. I suspect until I fully can understand why God did nothing, that my trust in Him is compromised.
Often in church I watch these people around me that appear to have warm, fuzzy relationships with God, who feel the "touch of the Lord," who feel safe and secure in their relationship with God. I feel sort of on the fringes of that. I don't know if it is really that they are feeling these things, or if it is just that it is meant for them, and not for others.
I can honestly say that I have never felt that kind of presence of God. And the spin that people put on that is that God wants me to trust him by faith. That is a laugh. If that is the case, there will never be a sense of God in my life.
When I was a kid, I used to watch the kids around me and knew that their lives were dramatically different from mine, that they had loving, perhaps imperfect, but at least loving parents. I figured that there was something wrong with me, that my parents were like they were. I suspect that there is something wrong with me that affects my relationship with God as well.
I know that relationship with God is not supposed to be based on works, but you should know that I normally do not spend so much thought on me and my relationship with God, I am out doing the good works. Would do them with or without God. I reach out to others, am a Girl Scout Leader, spent years as a Den mother, helped out in the class and reach out to the kids that I have contact with through my kids school. I help out wherever I can and do not always focus on my past.
When I responded to this post, I was just trying to let Pentemento know that she was not the only one who had problems with free will.
Heather | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/26/2003 3:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Heather-
I really appreciate your opening up so honestly. I too was abused when I was a child (not by my parents and not ongoing), so I have perhaps a small, very small, window through which to understand your pain.
I have four kids (18, 15, 13, 11). Yeah, three teens, rolling eyes and all!
I can't begin to understand how everything you've experienced has and is influencing your relationship to God. I can only say that having kids has affected my understanding of God. When we love our kids we are more like God, not less like him. When we fail to do all we can given the circumstances we're in to protect them I think we fail to love them and fail in that respect to bare God's image. I don't really have any other frame of reference with which to understand God's love, so I conclude that God did everything he could have given the circumstances to prevent my sexual abuse as a child. Why should an omnipotent God with the necessary "muscel" be "unable" to prevent my abuse? The best answer I've found thus far that the sort of love God wished us to experience, the love you and I now enjoy with our kids and hope they continue to choose to reciproacate to us throughout their lives, required the sort of freedom that meant it would always be possible that kids would choose not to reciprocate love and it would always be possible that parents would choose to abuse their children instead of loving them. If we were to remain free to love God and others as he wished, we have to remain free to not love God and others as he wishes. That's the risk God took. Was it worth it?
It doesn't answer the specific question about how and why circumstances made it impossible for God to save ME from harm, but it provides a larger framework into which I can "fit" my suffering. If the specific details of my situation aren't specifically uncovered to my satisfaction, I do have enough of the big picture of the sort of world and sort of freedom that require for US that evil be possible if love is to be possibile. I don't unravel the mystery of the circumstances surrounding my suffering, but I can understand enough to know that God did all he could, flexed all the muscel he could, to prevent my suffering. So the question for me is not, Why is it that God COULD HAVE prevented my abuse but CHOSE not to? The question for me is rather, Why is it God chose to create a world in which he could not always flex his muscel and prevent whatever evil he wished to prevent? The second question, I think, is compatible with a biblical worldview. The first question is not.
I sometimes wonder why parents continue to have children knowing the world is so screwed up, knowing that their kids will be exposed to suffering and evil. We know our kids may be abused, hurt, murdered, or raped, OR WORSE STILL, become abusers, murderers, and rapists. Heather, if we know that our kids may possibly suffer evil or bring about evil and so suffering for others, why do we choose to continue to have them? By what right do we continue to bring kids into the world facing such risks? We do it, YOU did it, because we believe love is worth the risk. You didn't believe it was worth the risk at first, and so you aborted a child. But you later came to believe it was worth the risk. You believed that you could guarantee that YOU would not be the sort of parent your paretns were, so you had children. OK. But you can't guarantee your childrens' choices, or the choices of other people. The possibility that evil may touch them from some source other than yourself is still very real for your children, something you must have known when you decided to have them. We can't be there to prevent ALL suffering in our children's lives. And we can't guarantee that they will not choose to become the source of suffering and pain for others either. So, Heather, I guess my question is, Why did you choose to have children knowing that in having them your were exposing them and others (yourself included) to the risk of the suffering and pain of evil? Something made it worth the risk. My guess is that like most parents, you concluded that their love and their bringing about good in the world was worth the risk.
But if we think our loving and being loved by our children is worth the risk that our children won't love us, that they'll suffer at the hands of others or cause others to suffer, why would we assume God's choice to bring us into existence for love is fundamentally that different of a choice? Do we not, in having our own children, possess the means whereby we can at least conceive of God making the same sort of choice when deciding which sort of world to create? It's not perfect. But it does make experiencing the love and presence of God possible in the midst of suffering.
Peace and blessings,
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/26/2003 4:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Thank you,
Thank you to whom? For what?
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wondering04
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 12/26/2003 5:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Tom,
Thanks for sharing as well. I don't think that you can put a meter on pain. Pain is pain and hurt is hurt. When someone suffers they suffer deeply, and you cannot really say that one is greater or less than another.
I suspect you are right that really God had to give free will to choose, that in order to be able to give love, you had to be able to choose not to give love as well. So I suppose your second question is more biblical.
You are right we cannot totally influence our kids' choices, nor can we guarantee there absolute safety. Given I was a pagan at the time that I had my kids, I am not certain I gave much theological thought to their birth. At the time that they were born, I had NOTHING to do with God.
What I am comforted in hearing is that somehow you managed to find some sort of resolution about God. It is good to know that some do find that sort of comfort from God.
I think that if I viewed myself in relation to God I would be more like a cornered animal, looking for a means of escape.
I also know that the problem of evil has been around for all time, that many in the Bible also felt the same way, for example Psalm 103.
I too have wondered why God did not just destroy all the earth, and start all over again.
One argument that I hear is that satan has dominion on the earth, given to him by Adam and Eve. That God could not do that much to counter his actions. But one thing that has always puzzled me is the story of Job. God actually took the covering of protection away from Job and allowed satan to do what he would to Job so long as he did not kill Job. But God did not protect Job's kids, and they were destroyed by satan. Frankly, I feel that God's protection of His people is rather arbitrary. I guess I am on God's do not protect list.
I will say that I am less hostile toward God than I was a few years ago, but am sort of resigned to being on the fringes of the kingdom.
I have wondered why, when things are difficult people point to your faith and say you don't have enough faith, you aren't doing this or that, because if you were, then you would not be having the problems. Would be nice if you could figure out the magic formula of what God wants that would make things smoother in your life.
It is only recently that I came to Christ, although I did pew sit with my husband in the Catholic church after the kids were born. I would not say I attended mass because I was too bitter at God, I just resented having to be there. I studied the Bible before from a pagan point of view, and now am looking from a different perspective.
As a child, my father was Christian Scientist, and they had definitions for everything, even God. There was not a warm God to cozy up to, and due to my father it was many years before I could open a Bible and not break out in a sweat of terror.
For many years, the Christian God was just one of a pantheon of many sun Gods and saviors, it is only for the past two years that He has been separated out. But it is hard to puzzle out exactly who this God is.
Hope you have a great day.
Heather | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/26/2003 6:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Heather-
Again, thanks a lot for sharing. I pray you find a meeting place with God as Father, that whatever truth is there God desires you to know you'll discover it and embrace it in the deepest part of your being, and that the joy of his love will be yours in this life.
One last question. Do you want this kind of relationship with God? Do you want to see your relationship with God as other than that of a cornered animal?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 12/26/2003 7:31 AM (GMT -6) | | wondering04
I have wondered why, when things are difficult people point to your faith and say you don't have enough faith, you aren't doing this or that, because if you were, then you would not be having the problems. Would be nice if you could figure out the magic formula of what God wants that would make things smoother in your life.
Iconoclast
Those people are no different than Job's "friends". The story of Job is there to show us that there is NO such thing as a magic formula to get God to make things smoother in our life regarding physical danger. Job was a righteous man who was loved by God and yet very terrible things happened to him.
God doesn't promise to make things go outwardly more smooth. He does however promise to make things go inwardly more smooth - a peace that surpasses understanding. This comes about because God's promise is one of showing us that there is something deeper than suffering. God's promise is one of showing us that when we truly love another we WILL suffer (even He does) and yet that suffering itself IS where the deep meaning and therefore deep joy comes from.
Jesus dying on the cross is not some magical formula or sacrifice that mechanically fixes us. It is rather God showing us directly where His joy - His Life - comes from and thus where we also can find joy and Life - we find it by selflessly loving others - by choosing to suffer for others in the very smallest ways - giving a cup of water to a thirsty child when it is inconvenient.
We all tend to believe that God is like a parent who will give us good things and love us as long as we are "good enough" - as long as we jump through enough hoops - as long as we believe the right things. And if we don't - then we will be punished by our angry Father. This is THE lie that we are all living under. It is a very powerful lie - we are all entranced by this lie because it is often our actual experience with our own parents - and we often continue this lie to our children by behaving just like our parents did - all the while being frustrated that our children can't see why what we are doing is really because we love them.
We don't get Life by being "good enough". In fact, trying to be "good enough" is what is crushing the Life out of us because it causes us to focus on ourselves. Life is not found by focusing on ourselves - Life IS focusing on others - no magic formulas - no tit for tat - no being "good enough" - just a simple natural and logical relationship - just like 4 = 2 + 2, Life / Deep Meaning = focus on / love others.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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wondering04
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Total Posts : 45
| Posted 12/26/2003 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom, yes I do want a relationship that is more than a cornered animal. I suppose that is why I have been spending a lot of time reading the Bible. I want to understand more about this God. I know that for me right now, the studies I have been doing in the OT are showing me how much God was involved in bringing about Jesus.
I guess that the hard thing is that God's timing is way different from our timing. He waited hundreds of years in the hopes that certain peoples would be saved before he had the Israelites eliminate them. I know that there is great love for the sinful people in that.
But, if one of my kids were attacking the others, and hurting them, I would intervene and make them deal with their issues in a less destructive way. I guess my problem with God is that I never understood how he could let someone hurt a little child who could not defend herself. If two adults go at it the field is more even, but when an adult hurts a kid, there is little recourse for the kids.
I know that there are people who look for God in everything. I can see God very easily in creation, in how things work together in harmony in the universe. I know that if you accept part of the Bible you need to accept all of the Bible. I also know that with my intellect the things that have been said here are true, but the problem comes with bringing the head knowledge into my heart, and that is where my problem lies. I can spout the spiritual truths about God, but believing them is much harder.
I don't know how to gain that trust in God. The basic trust is not there for me. And I know that there are still areas where I don't allow anyone, person or God. To survive as a child, much of my "real" self had to be compartmentalized. I had to pull back and hide what I really felt, control the expressions on my face (a wrong look or even a jump due to fear could bring on a beating). Even the number of tears I would shed when being hit had to be controlled, too many and I got hit for crying too much, too few and I got hit for not crying enough.
I am only saying this to point out that for me, I am trying to figure out God. What does he want? IF you ask wrong do you get knocked down? If you are not reverent enough? God wants our total trust, and without faith it is impossible to please God. So if I don't have the kind of faith He wants, what hope is there?
The problem is, having gone through the gamut of new age religions, philosophies, denying all gods, etc, I am at a point where there is no other alternative. If I blow Christianity, there really is nothing left to turn to. I don't know if I am saying this clearly enough, but I feel that around God you have to tread very carefully and softly. Best yet, don't call attention to yourself.
Iconoclast, you are right, Job's "friends" did not help with their theorizing. And ultimately God told them that they had to repent for the lies they were spouting off. But then God gave his speech about who set the stars in the sky, who did this and who did that, basically saying that He was sovereign. I have no problem with God's sovereignty, but if that is how he answered Job, then maybe our prayers mean nothing, maybe God just does what he wants when He wants to, no matter what is important to us. Does He really alter anything for anybody?
The other point of Job that people say is that God restored abundantly to Job all that he lost. But God really didn't, Job never had his children revived. Yes he had more children born to him, but as a parent, I know that if one of my kids died, that even if I had two more, I would still miss the one who died.
Some say that Job kept his faith in the midst of a crisis and that is accounted to him as righteousness by God. I suspect if I was in Job's state i would not have comported myself as well as he did. I would have blown it big time.
I am sorry for these struggles, but I will not pretend to be what I am not, and pretend that I have more spirituality that I really have, which right now I guess is very little.
Heather | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 12/26/2003 1:29 PM (GMT -6) | | wondering04
But, if one of my kids were attacking the others, and hurting them, I would intervene and make them deal with their issues in a less destructive way. I guess my problem with God is that I never understood how he could let someone hurt a little child who could not defend herself. If two adults go at it the field is more even, but when an adult hurts a kid, there is little recourse for the kids.
Iconoclast
This makes it sound like the goal is to avoid pain and be successful in this temporal existence we have on earth.
What if there is something much, much worse than the little child being hurt or even being killed? What if God allows the Nazi to hurt or kill the child in order to try and save the Nazi from something much, much worse than temporal pain or even physical death? Think for a moment about how a raging alcoholic gets healed. Typically it is only when that raging alcoholic is confronted by the horrible things he or she has done. The question is, should God allow the raging alcoholic to do terrible things in order to possibly see the harm they have done and turn and be healed? Or should God snuff out any possibility of the alcoholic being healed in order to stop them from causing some temporal pain or even physical death to someone else?
Now, let's imagine the worst happens to the little child - they are killed. Doesn't this mean that they just go back to being with God. Won't God "make this up" to them? And if this temporal existence we have on earth is really all about learning to deeply love one another and we say that therefore the real tragedy is that this little child didn't get the full chance to do so can't we also assume that God has the ability to "make this up" to them also?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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wondering04
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 12/26/2003 4:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Iconoclast,
I know that the earthly existence is not all smooth, but I can't honestly fathom what you are saying. Yes it is good if someone who has done evil things comes to God, but right now I cannot accept that it is good that millions of Jews died, that children are hurt, no matter what. Perhaps it is just that I know that there were many things I did in my sinful past that were direct results of what was done to me. Had some of the things not been done to me, then I might have had a way different existence. Kind of like an evil harvest was perpetuated. Perhaps some interventon by God would have eased some of the evil in this world.
I know that people say God has a wonderful plan for us, and maybe He will make up for things in Heaven, maybe He won't I don't know for sure.
For me, I really want to get to know the loving God that others know. I don't know if that is possible or not, but I do keep seeking.
Heather | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 12/26/2003 7:34 PM (GMT -6) | | wondering04
Yes it is good if someone who has done evil things comes to God, but right now I cannot accept that it is good that millions of Jews died, that children are hurt, no matter what.
Iconoclast
I agree that it is certainly not a good thing that millions of Jews were mercilessly slaughtered. It is, in fact, horrendous evil. And yet God did not stop it when He obviously could have. I think we would all agree that God has the raw power to intervene whenever and wherever He chooses. This leaves us with the question, why didn't He intervene when He has the power to do so? If God loves us how could He allow such horrible evil to befall His children? And how is it that we are supposed to believe that God really loves us when He allows such things?
Before we can possibly answer this I think we must first determine if God really does love us or not. For myself, I think that God personally coming down to earth and allowing Himself to be tortured and murdered by us to be compelling evidence that God unconditionally loves each and every one of us. I can't think of any other specific thing He could do that would be stronger evidence than this.
From here we can ask the question, under what conditions would a loving God allow horrible evil to befall His children? Or, are there no possible conditions under which a loving God would do this and thus we are left with a terrible contradiction.
In order for there to be conditions under which God would allow such horrible evil we must first accept that God cannot just do anything without consequences. An example of this would be that we must accept that God cannot create mountains without the consequence of a valley. Or, most importantly, that God cannot create beings who choose to love without the consequence of them choosing not to love.
Given this then the simple answer to the question of why a loving God allows evil to befall His children is found in the parable of the tares and the wheat.
Mat 13:24-30
Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the householder came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?' He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he said, 'No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"
This parable tells us that for God to intervene now would cause some wheat to be pulled up. In other words, if God intervened to stop evil then some folks would never know love.
What this tells us is that there is something more important to God than simply stopping a child from being hurt. It is for that child to become a loving being. For what is the alternative? It is for that child to not become a loving being and thus for that child to not have life.
And is this any different than what we do for our own children? Would you stop your child from ever being hurt under all conditions? And if you did so, what would be the consequence to your child? Imagine if you had the power to prevent any and all hurt to your child. Wouldn't you first and foremost have to prevent them from caring about another person in case that person rejected them? And if you could make that person not reject them wouldn't that simply be to make them into a robot who didn't really care about your child in the first place?
We simply cannot know love without knowing hurt. Pain or hurt is not the worst thing that can happen to us. Not caring is. God Himself showed us that love means that even He knows hurt. It is an unavoidable consequence of loving others.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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