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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 12/27/2003 6:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | Heather,
I am sorry for the hardship you endured as a child. I am glad that you have come to a place where you can forgive in order to be set free from the bondage.
I want to touch on a point Iconoclast made: quote:
We don't get Life by being "good enough." In fact, trying to be "good enough" is what is crushing the Life out of us because it causes us to focus on ourselves. Life is not found by focusing on ourselves - Life IS focusing on others - no magic formulas - no tit for tat - no being "good enough" - just a simple natural and logical relationship - just like 4 = 2 + 2, Life / Deep Meaning = focus on / love others
God's kingdom is amazingly upside down from what we think it should be. Jesus was not born into wealth as one would have expected a king to be hence making it hard for those who were looking for a specific kingly type. Many missed seeing the truth because they were not looking through this upside down lens of God. In God's upside down kingdom we receive by giving. We are filled when we empty ourselves. We receive life by losing our life..... What we see is not necessarily what is true. Heather, when you look at the whole picture of your life can you see that God did answer your prayer but just not in the time frame you had hoped for? Do those adults still have the ability to abuse you? Do they still have the power to hurt you? From the sound of it, and from your ability to forgive in order to be free, it would seem that the abuse is over! It sounds as if you have been set free through your forgiveness. Who would think that forgiving would be the route to freedom?!
Why do bad things happen to children? Where is God and why doesn't he intervene? Why didn't he change your childhood situation sooner?
*Perhaps a different and helpful way to look at these questions would be first off to remember that this life is a tiny blimp in comparison with eternity (just like what you have been discussing here on this thread)
*Perhaps a different way to view God is to meditate upon the fact that only a God who cares deeply for humanity would purposefully come into this cruel world from his heavenly domain and experience the pain that we experience. I agree with what Iconoclast said in that only a God of outrageous love would be willing to die a cruel death on the cross in order to set you free. If each of us could read to the final chapter of our lives we would find that God has the final word and the final word is outrageous LOVE.
*Although often times it appears that answers to prayers are slow coming and thus make us question if God is even listening, rest assured this same God who died to free us is definitely listening to every word and tear we shed. He is working all things for the good if we just look beyond this present time period into the big picture of eternity.
Heather, I hope you will keep doorway of communication with God open because when we pray we giving God the say so into the situations of our life. He respects us so much that he knocks and waits for us to ask Him into our "stuff". The bible tells us to pray at all times "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done." Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Through prayer we give God permission to battle in the war, a war that may take a lifetime before the final victory is won. If you read to the end of the book you will see that God NOT Satan has won the victory despite the present circumstances and pain that people experience.
God bless you.
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Iconoclast
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| Posted 12/27/2003 7:31 AM (GMT -6) | | wondering04
I am only saying this to point out that for me, I am trying to figure out God. What does he want? IF you ask wrong do you get knocked down? If you are not reverent enough? God wants our total trust, and without faith it is impossible to please God. So if I don't have the kind of faith He wants, what hope is there?
…
I don't know if I am saying this clearly enough, but I feel that around God you have to tread very carefully and softly. Best yet, don't call attention to yourself.
Iconoclast
I have felt very similar to this. I used to see God as no different than a constantly disapproving parent – I mean how can you ever measure up to God’s standard of perfection? And so, how can God ever see you except as not good enough?
This changed for me after reading Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s book “Ethics” where Dietrich showed how God wants to know and really loves the real us – not our “good behavior”. That God, in fact, delights in who we really are – our real self – that we are in fact already OK – even in our imperfections – that, in fact, the real problem that God is calling us out of is that we constantly put on masks to prevent our real self from showing and are thus denying who we are and therefore crushing our own life and the life of those around us.
Imagine your child who, because they don’t feel “good enough” about who they are, put on all sorts of behaviors (masks) that are not really them in an attempt to get people to like them or measure up in some way. The end result of this behavioral pattern can often lead to disastrous results – anorexia, drug use and so on.
In my view, all of our destructive behavior towards ourselves and each other comes out of this fundamental way in which we view ourselves. We view ourselves as not OK and then assume that everyone else (including and probably especially God) views us this way also. I see God as working overtime throughout history to try and change this way in which we view ourselves. I see God as working overtime to try and convince us that He actually, truly and unconditionally loves us as we are – our actual, real self – the self that we are right here and right now.
I think that the core of our problem is not that we fundamentally don’t have faith that God loves us. Our problem is that we fundamentally don’t have faith that we are lovable, right here and right now. Our false logic is that since we are convinced that we are not lovable then God must not really love us. Our false logic is that we think that we have to DO something before we can become lovable. But what more could God possibly do to try and convince us that we already ARE lovable right here and right now?
If our spouse freely chose to be tortured and killed in order to protect us, would that convince us that we are lovable? Or, would we just chalk that up to him or her being a nice person unlike the unlovable us? But, notice how this is then self-sealing logic. It is logic that is impenetrable by any force of reality. Why? Because no matter what someone does for us to show us that we are lovable we can just discount it and chalk it up to them being loving rather than us being lovable. This is a trap that all of us humans are caught up in. The only way out is to see it for what it is – to see the false as the false – and to therefore be able to finally open our eyes and see the truth. We are already lovable right here and right now. God loves the real us, right here and right now. All we have to do is to let go of our false view that we are not good enough – all we have to do is to see the false as the false.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 12/27/2003 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
wondering04
I am only saying this to point out that for me, I am trying to figure out God. What does he want? IF you ask wrong do you get knocked down? If you are not reverent enough? God wants our total trust, and without faith it is impossible to please God. So if I don't have the kind of faith He wants, what hope is there?
Again, in the upside down world of God things are not as we would initially expect. It's not about us making ourselves good enough. "For it's by grace (not ourselves) that we are saved and this is a work of God." Jesus came for the sinner not the perfect person. Jesus spent his ministry loving and spending time with those who were "out" in the religious realm. He is faithful even when we are faithless.
"He who has begun a good work in you will be faithful to complete it." Our only task is to say "Yes, Lord. Make me like you."
Sorry I missed this until Iconoclast recently posted.
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John Earp
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| Posted 12/27/2003 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
I am only saying this to point out that for me, I am trying to figure out God. What does he want? IF you ask wrong do you get knocked down? If you are not reverent enough? God wants our total trust, and without faith it is impossible to please God. So if I don't have the kind of faith He wants, what hope is there?
John's reply
Jesus Christ, in so many words, said that being perfect is loving one's enemies (just as God does). (Matt. 5:38-48).
All God wants from us is that we love Him as we should and that we love our neighbor as ourself, as we should. This is the universal moral law. It is the height of blasphemy and slander against God to say that He expects too much of us.
The idea that God presents too high a standard for us is precisely the idea advanced by Calvinism; i.e., the Most Impossible Tyrant imaginable.
The God of the Bible asks no more of us than we can do. "Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength. Some people are stronger than others, but God does not ask any to use more strength than they already possess.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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wondering04
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| Posted 12/27/2003 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Wow, thanks for all your input! Iconoclast, the parable of the tares and wheat does seem to explain why evil is mixed in with good, sort of, but an omnipotent God really could sort things out if He chose to. Yet I do know that God does give us choice and chances. I also recall the parable of the fig tree where the gardener is going to dig around the roots and see if it comes back to life before condemning it to the fire. You are right, we need the contrasts, day/night, love/hate to fully appreciate the good.
While I can see this in a philosophical sense, it does very little to fill that empty void inside.
Quest for Truth, the people that I needed to forgive were long dead before I forgave them. So, no they cannot hurt me now, but I still needed to forgive them to be free.
I do thank Jesus for his sacrifice for me, and I know he submitted himself to cruel and unusual punishment that goes far beyond anything that I ever experienced. I sometimes wonder at God who would allow his Son to go through that.
The only prayers that I really pray are for relationship to God, knowing His will and feeling His love. I quit,at the age of 8 asking for protection, and I never as for material things. That is why I don't understand why God cannot answer these prayers. The only answer I can come up with is that He does not want to deal with me at all.
Looking at the picture from eternity, I do realize that our lives are but a tiny speck in all of eternity, but even so, we are here now, and it sure would be comforting to feel God's love in the midst of this. And it still comes down to the fact that, if God was impotent in helping to stop my abuse when I was 8, what kept him from providing comfort for me in the midst of it. I was very isolated and alone with all that I was facing, and even a sense of God's presence would have been helpful. Instead, I had the wall next to my bed.
Iconoclast, you are right. Part of what I am dealing with is that I don't feel all that lovable. I think that I figure that if my parents did what they did to me, there had to be something aweful that would cause them to think of me this way. Also, if God did not intervene to help or provide comfort than He must have seen this also, and that maybe the reason why He did nothing is because He wants nothing to do with me.
I still keep studying the word, and trying to sort this stuff out, it is not all that easy. I almost feel like a kid looking into a pastry shop window and wanting a sweet, but it is tantilizingly beyond reach, only something to enjoy vicariously. Would that God could be more real to me than a wish or a dream or a hope.
Heather | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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| Posted 12/28/2003 12:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Heather: And it still comes down to the fact that, if God was impotent in helping to stop my abuse when I was 8, what kept him from providing comfort for me in the midst of it. I was very isolated and alone with all that I was facing, and even a sense of God's presence would have been helpful. Instead, I had the wall next to my bed.
I think you might find some comfort in reading Greg's book about the power in imaginative prayer. On the front page of this web site is advertised the book "Seeing is Believing" which will be coming soon.
It might be helpful and healing for to go back in your mind to the time when the doubt and lie was instilled regarding your worth. To confront the scene where the abuse was happening and where this precious eight year old girl was left wondering if God cared in order to discover the truth. The truth is that when you were eight God was listening and his heart was breaking over His precious child being treated this way. He agonized over the freewill decision the adults were making. Jesus was there wanting so desperately for you NOT to be abused. The feelings of anger you have when you look at how this precious eight year old girl was mistreated are the same of God's. Replay this scene but this time have Jesus stand up to these abusers on behalf of this little girl and then see the abusers leave the scene. See Jesus bring her to a safe place and feel him holding her securely in his arms. Hear Jesus instilling how precious and valuable she is to him and how he will be with her through every trial and abusive situation. Watch as he shows her a clip of how in the end she wins and she becomes free from the abuse through the power of forgiveness.
God bless you!
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wondering04
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Total Posts : 45
| Posted 12/28/2003 6:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Quest for Truth, I have been reading Gregory Boyd's book, Is God to Blame. I need to read more, before I comment much on it. His book on imaginative prayer sounds intresting, albeit imaginative.
I do realize that there are many blueprints for how we should view human suffering. I suppose it is man's need to find something that makes sense to them that is why there are so many blueprints.
For me, I haven't found the thing that works the best for me. That prayer you suggested sounds much like guided imagery, but in my mind I would know that it was pretend. That no such thing happened when I was a child, so why replace abandonment with wishful thinking. There was no Jesus and no comfort back then, unfortunately.
I used to think that God created the universe than walked away to make new creations. That we were pretty much on our own. Jesus dispells that theory, but is it possible that God figured that he sent Jesus to die for us, and now it is up to us to make it or not, that there isn't that much intervention anymore. Maybe He feels that isn't salvation enough?
Back in my pagan days, and I really was a pagan, I used to consider that God must have been an abusive father to even put His Son in a position of having to die for us. I used to figure that an imaginative God could have come up with some less brutal plan. Blood seemed rather drastic.
The other blueprint idea was that God did not want disease, that satan did the diseases. Boyd talks about how Jesus went about dispelling that blueprint by healing all those he came into contact with. That is great as far as it goes, but it still leaves the question of why not heal those on earth who need it now, what makes them any different than those Jesus healed back then? If Jesus could intervene then, why not now? And if he doesn't intervene, why not?
so many questions, so few answers.
Heather | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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| Posted 12/28/2003 6:59 PM (GMT -6) | | wondering04
The other blueprint idea was that God did not want disease, that satan did the diseases. Boyd talks about how Jesus went about dispelling that blueprint by healing all those he came into contact with. That is great as far as it goes, but it still leaves the question of why not heal those on earth who need it now, what makes them any different than those Jesus healed back then? If Jesus could intervene then, why not now? And if he doesn't intervene, why not?
Iconoclast
What is it that we most desperately need to be healed from?
What fundamental ailment is it that we are suffering from?
If God healed all of our symptoms but did not heal the fundamental ailment that was causing all the symptoms would that do us any good? Or would the symptoms just reappear?
And what if our fundamental ailment is something that WE have chosen? What if our fundamental ailment is something that can only be truly healed by US making a different choice?
If this is true could it explain why Jesus could intervene but doesn’t always intervene?
I think the answer is yes.
If an alcoholic keeps getting sick and keeps hurting other people would it be helpful to their fundamental ailment (choosing to drink) to always intervene to prevent them from getting sick and hurting others? No. We call this being co-dependent. What is most important in this situation is to influence the alcoholic to stop drinking. This is most powerfully done by first convincing them that they are unconditionally loved and then by making clear to them the negative consequences of what they are doing to themselves and to those around them. The ONLY way they are going to get better is by making a different choice. No one can do that for them – not even God.
In the alcoholic case I think we can clearly see that we would want to intervene sometimes to show the alcoholic that they are unconditionally loved and yet we would also be forced to NOT intervene enough so that they experience whatever negative consequences are required for them to make a different choice. Sometimes there are no negative consequences that are “enough” for an alcoholic to make a different choice.
So what is OUR fundamental ailment?
God tells us what it is in the story of Adam and Eve. It is that we have stolen the knowledge of good and evil. We have become judgers of good and evil. Unfortunately we are not omniscient and hence are not able to judge good and evil. We therefore first and foremost judge ourselves as not worthy – as not lovable – and we experience shame. We then judge each other for all the bad things we do to each other out of this negative judgement of ourselves. We then judge God for setting up the whole system the way it is and for not simply fixing it.
The story also tells us what the symptoms of this ailment are.
The only solution to this ailment is to make a different choice. It is to stop judging ourselves, each other and God. The choice is to simply stop believing our own judgement - that we are not lovable - and to start believing God that we ARE lovable. That God, in fact, unconditionally loves us, as we are. And this isn’t just something He has told us in words – it is an unambiguous action He has taken.
Now, this is awfully hard to do. A negative command is very difficult to follow. “Stop thinking of the color blue – especially deep blue.” Fortunately God also gave a specific positive command that if we follow will lead to the exact same result – Love God and Love one another. I think this is interesting because it doesn’t say – feel loved by God – or – feel love for one another – it is a command that is totally an action – an action, I believe, that ultimately leads to the feeling, which reinforces the action.
Jesus doesn’t just heal all of our symptoms because, out of love, He wants the full healing of our complete being.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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wondering04
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Total Posts : 45
| Posted 12/29/2003 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Iconoclast,
I understand what you are saying sort of. Yes, part of deep healing is feeling God's unconditonal love and believing in it. But your example of an alcoholic makes things a bit tougher. Yes, it is not good to be a co-dependent person, but if you knew that your alcoholic husband was going to rape your daughter, would you not intervene to protect your daughter? Well my mom not only did not intervene but she helped the situation along and even documented the visits in notebooks. So sorry, but at times intervention is necessary.
And if God knew that an alcoholic was going to inflict terrible damage on someone and He does not intervene, what does that say about Him and His so-called love for the victim? Does he love the alcoholic more than the victim? Maybe it becomes a gigantic can of worms. Maybe it is too much for Him to deal with. I still do not understand it.
And yes, I should have been struck down as well when I considered the abortion I had because that too hurt others. It seems that sin and hurt just expands exponentionally. I often wonder if I had had a kinder, gentler childhood if I would have avoided some of my wrong choices.
Then you come to the question of faith, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb.11:1
If you see or feel something it leaves the realm of faith, but to trust and have that kind of faith is difficult. I think faith is easier for those who had at lest a modicum of love as a child to cling to. I think it was Eric Erickson who talked about basic trust being crucial to an understanding of God. I never got a chance to form basic trust, maybe my wiring is such that I will be a failure at Christianity. I just don't know right now.
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quest for truth
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| Posted 12/29/2003 5:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I do realize that there are many blueprints for how we should view human suffering. I suppose it is man's need to find something that makes sense to them that is why there are so many blueprints.
For me, I haven't found the thing that works the best for me. That prayer you suggested sounds much like guided imagery, but in my mind I would know that it was pretend. That no such thing happened when I was a child, so why replace abandonment with wishful thinking. There was no Jesus and no comfort back then, unfortunately.
I agree with you, Heather, people have to sort things out for themselves and in the end come up with the best possible theory they can live with. The one thing we can be sure of, if we believe that the bible is true, is that God is love. Despite how we come to understand this the truth remains and can be found throughout the theme of the bible from front to back cover. How each of us comes to accept this truth may be very different. In order for me to make sense of suffering, while holding on to the belief that God is love, I need to visualize God weeping and battling on behalf of the victim. The theory that makes the most sense for me is that there is a war going on in the heavenlies and the battle is for each soul. One side wants us to lose heart and one side wants us to press on.
I also believe that there is no black and white but merely shades of gray in life hence I believe this makes every situation very hard to know for certain why God doesn't intervene more often. If God intervened in every painful event there would never be no such thing as freewill. Freewill for the victim to choose to trust what eye cannot see when faced with a storm. Your abusers weren't the only ones who had the freewill in the situation of the abuse. The victim has the freewill to run to or from God. All of us will have our share of suffering in life yet it's what we do when in the midst of suffering that will define our character....
Despite what theory any of us abhor to the one truth that we all must accept, if we are to accept the bible as true, is that God has outrageous love for us. Love brings life while doubt breeds despair and hopelessness. Faith to me is believing in God's love even when I don't "feel" loved, even when I am facing a storm.
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wondering04
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Total Posts : 45
| Posted 12/30/2003 5:49 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Quest for Truth, I am glad that you found a way that works for you to understand God.
I know you said that we had the free will to choose to run to God or away from God. I guess I saw it that I ran to God first in prayer to protect me, it was only after He did not protect me that I ran away from Him, and believe me I ran far and explored many areas I should never have looked in.
I like your definition of faith, It is a hard one though. I guess that it seems that in my walk with God, I spend more time not aware of His presence than aware of it. I often wonder if there is something wrong with me. First my father abused me, now God ignores me. Perhaps I was just an accident. Who knows.
I really appreciate you taking tome to respond.
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Iconoclast
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| Posted 12/30/2003 8:41 PM (GMT -6) | | wondering04
But your example of an alcoholic makes things a bit tougher. Yes, it is not good to be a co-dependent person, but if you knew that your alcoholic husband was going to rape your daughter, would you not intervene to protect your daughter? Well my mom not only did not intervene but she helped the situation along and even documented the visits in notebooks. So sorry, but at times intervention is necessary.
Iconoclast
If I knew that my alcoholic spouse was going to do harm to my child then I would certainly intervene. I think that the appropriate response would be to contact the authorities, seek a restraining order and then start divorce proceedings. Anything less would be tantamount to collusion.
If the spouse’s situation is analogous to what God is doing when He allows this evil to happen then God is clearly in collusion with this evil and it is a lie that He loves any of us. To allow a child to be raped when you have the means to stop it is the exact opposite of love.
wondering04
Maybe it becomes a gigantic can of worms. Maybe it is too much for Him to deal with. I still do not understand it.
Iconoclast
The only way I know of to avoid the contradiction of God unconditionally loving us as He unambiguously revealed on the cross and Him allowing great evil to happen to us is that He does not have the means to stop it at an individual level short of wiping us all out like He did (or almost did) in the great flood. The parable of the Tares and the Wheat comes to mind again. A gigantic can of worms or a gigantic Wheat field full of Tares? I think it is very difficult for us humans from our very limited perspective to really comprehend what is going on here to our complete satisfaction. I am not sure we ever really will until we come face to face with God. I think this is the meaning of the story of Job. Job did not comprehend until He actually saw God.
Job 42:1-6
Then Job answered the LORD: "I know that thou canst do all things, and that no purpose of thine can be thwarted. 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 'Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you declare to me.' I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees thee; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes."
The story of Job is the story of us judgers not trusting that God cares about us when evil things happen to us. What Job finally saw was “things too wonderful for me” – he saw for himself that what God is doing is wonderful – not terrible. Job suddenly saw things from a different perspective. He saw that there is deep meaning in what God is doing.
Notice that God did not come to Job and tell him that since God is sovereign Job should just shut up and do good things. God came to Job and showed Job the complexity of creation. Yes, God challenged Job in Job’s assumption that God should just be able to take care of things the way Job thought He should but God did so by using reason – by trying to help Job see as much as Job could possibly see.
So, why doesn’t God just do that for us without us having to go through so much torment? Why did God only clearly show up with this new perspective for Job after Job had suffered so horribly? I think the answer to this is itself part of the theme of the whole story – it is necessary for US that God does it this way – but WE cannot comprehend it until after we go through this.
Now, if God totally loves us then this torment we suffer must ultimately be for a purpose that is related directly to our ultimate well-being. This suggests that God cannot simply snap His fingers and create loving beings. Loving beings can only become loving beings through a process of choosing – choosing to suffer for others – which is nothing more than choosing to love others.
Those who choose love in the midst of great suffering will receive a great reward in themselves – they will find the deepest meaning, the most Life and therefore the greatest joy.
wondering04
Does he love the alcoholic more than the victim?
Iconoclast
Great question.
I think God loves the alcoholic not more but every bit as much as the victim. The alcoholic was himself or herself a little child at one time who was a victim and who, in a sense, is still a victim of his or her terrible choice – the choice to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The choice to continue in his or her judgement of being unlovable – the same choice we all keep continuing in.
Does God love the one who strays so far more than the sheep who don’t? I don’t think so. Yet, we know from the parable of the lost sheep that God and all of heaven rejoices greatly when the one sheep who was lost is found again.
And then there is the parable of the prodigal son. We know that the initial feeling of the brother who did not wander off but was loyal to his father is one of frustration and anger. Yet, God’s response to this brother is to wonder why the brother is not himself delighted that his lost brother is found again.
This suggests that once we become fully loving beings and see from God’s perspective we will find meaning in our suffering to the extent that it helped us or others become fully loving beings.
wondering04
And yes, I should have been struck down as well when I considered the abortion I had because that too hurt others.
Iconoclast
Once we give in to the lie – the judgement – that we are unlovable we all hurt each other in innumerable ways. God’s judgement is that we are totally lovable – so lovable and so loved that we are worth being whipped by a Roman soldier 39 times on the back and then dying a torturous death on a cross.
wondering04
It seems that sin and hurt just expands exponentionally. I often wonder if I had had a kinder, gentler childhood if I would have avoided some of my wrong choices.
Iconoclast
Perhaps. Or perhaps the childhood you had may have helped you to become more sensitized to the deep hurt others feel and become more thoughtful toward others than you would have been.
The story of Adam and Eve is that Adam and Eve had every good thing. They walked with God in paradise. And yet they also gave in to the lie – the judgement – that they were unlovable – they felt shame and hid from God because they felt unworthy. And were they such terrible abusive parents that they predisposed Cain to kill his brother Abel? If so, why was Abel so humble and loving toward God?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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wondering04
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| Posted 1/6/2004 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Iconoclast
ICONOCLAST: "If I knew that my alcoholic spouse was going to do harm to my child then I would certainly intervene. I think that the appropriate response would be to contact the authorities, seek a restraining order and then start divorce proceedings. Anything less would be tantamount to collusion.
HEATHER: That was what happened in my situation, my mom colluded with my father. She too was an alcoholic, not vicious like my father, but not helpful either. She actually filled up notebooks with details of what he did and every time he came into my room. She never turned these notebooks over to the authorities or intervened in any way. Not only was I deserted by God, but I was deserted by her as well.
ICONOCLAST. If the spouse’s situation is analogous to what God is doing when He allows this evil to happen then God is clearly in collusion with this evil and it is a lie that He loves any of us. To allow a child to be raped when you have the means to stop it is the exact opposite of love."
HEATHER: That is my point exactly Iconoclast. "If God could allow a child to be raped when He had the means to stop it it is the exact oppositite of love."
That is why it is so hard to trust God for me. In my mind's eye that is EXACTLY what God did to me. I really really prayed hard for God to stop what my father was doing and God's response was to let it go on and on and on for years and years. What sort of love is that? And why should I now trust Him?
So what are the arguments that people use?
God wept for your pain. Big deal, that didn't stop it.
God was there with you in the midst? He sure hid himself well.
He hated what your father was doing? Obviously not enough to stop him.
God wanted to use this in your future so you can help others. At the expense of a child? His recruitment system stinks.
All this will be explained in Heaven? I need to know now.
God had more grand plans, he hoped your father would be saved? While that has some redeeming value, it still meant that lots of people got hurt, my brother, my sister and my self and my mom for this possible salvation?
We cannot understand the ways of God? Darn straight, they make no ordinary sense?
It is all part of God's plan? Couldn't he make kinder gentler plans?
You didn't get pregnant. Yes, that was a good thing. Was it from God, who knows?
You were made strong by this? Yes, but at what cost? The effects seem to go on and on.
And the comments go on and on as well, but there isn't one that really satisfies the hurt.
Dear Quest, I really do not know what I need from God. He may have outrageous love for us, and he may in his sovereingty decide to show it to some. Unfortunately I am not on that list of lucky people.
One thing this thread has shown me is that I guess I do not have the anger towards God as resolved as I should have. When I think of God it is bittersweet, I do long for the God that some seem to have found, instead, my relationship with God is tenuous. I am more disappointed that trusting.
But one thing that I feel I should share. I do not spend all my time dwelling on my past. Right now memories are emerging that I had totally repressed, so my past is a bit more prominent. I have forgiven my parents (albeit they are dead) and I do use my past productively to help others. I find that kids do come to me to talk about what is bothering them and seem to feel that I am a sympathetic ear. I do reach out to others in service and I do not spend my days just self-absorbed in pain. Most of my current life I would call happy and filled with good things. But there are still those haunting dark holes.
Heather
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/6/2004 7:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Heather, I feel for you and appreciate your questions and the honesty in your anger at God. I want to share some of my thoughts on what you wrote. Feel free to disagree and question what I write -- we learn from one another.
quote:
God wept for your pain. Big deal, that didn't stop it.
Interesting, God didn't stop the pain Jesus experienced in the garden either.
quote:
God was there with you in the midst? He sure hid himself well.
"My God, My God. Why have you forsaken me?" Jesus cried out.
quote:
He hated what your father was doing? Obviously not enough to stop him.
Again, it's interesting how God didn't stop the torture and pain that Christ experienced at the flogging either.
Why did Christ have to experience the pain and feel the abandonment? Why did he need to die to overcome sin when he could have destroyed it and the one who causes the pain both you and Jesus had experienced? Could it be that to have freedom there has to be choice? Choice means there is more than one way -- there is more than God's way. Where darkness is found the light will be lacking -- where there is deception the truth will be hidden. The gospel is filled with stories of how the ministry of Jesus was one of fighting against the darkness and deception in order to bring light and truth into the situation. Jesus did not stop the sinful decisions that people made but he DID show a different way -- a way out from the sin. In this world we WILL have struggles and pain BUT Jesus has overcome the world and offers a way out! Perhaps God did not stop the injustice, the deception, the lie that happened to you and was planted in your brain when you were a young girl BUT He offers a way to move beyond it through exposing the lie that was planted with the truth found in the bible. If you want to know the love of God it might help to CHOOSE to believe what the bible says about how important you are to God instead of believing the lie implanted from BAD choices your parents made.
quote:
God wanted to use this in your future so you can help others. At the expense of a child? His recruitment system stinks.
NO! God did not WANT the sin to be chosen by the freewill act of your parents.
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All this will be explained in Heaven? I need to know now....We cannot understand the ways of God? Darn straight, they make no ordinary sense?
I encourage you to keep seeking but know that NO ONE will EVER see clearly until they pass from this life. Right now we see through a glass dimly. We are stuck in an existence that is limited and finite. We are only able to understand and comprehend a small, minute percentage of what's really going on.
quote:
And the comments go on and on as well, but there isn't one that really satisfies the hurt.
Dear Quest, I really do not know what I need from God. He may have outrageous love for us, and he may in his sovereignty decide to show it to some. Unfortunately I am not on that list of lucky people.
Nor am I or a lot of other people I know and encounter. Life is NOT fair -- just look around. People are abusing chemicals trying to find some relief from the pain. Suicide is the number one killer among the young. Credit card debt is climbing. Sexual promiscuity is running rampant. Some people are living on the streets with no place to call home. Some children will die before their time through child abuse. Young parents die from cancer leaving behind small children. People are starving.... WHAT IS GOING ON!!! What is the answer?
You may be on to something in this next quote:
quote:
But one thing that I feel I should share. I do not spend all my time dwelling on my past. Right now memories are emerging that I had totally repressed, so my past is a bit more prominent. I have forgiven my parents (albeit they are dead) and I do use my past productively to help others. I find that kids do come to me to talk about what is bothering them and seem to feel that I am a sympathetic ear. I do reach out to others in service and I do not spend my days just self-absorbed in pain. Most of my current life I would call happy and filled with good things. But there are still those haunting dark holes.
Could the answer be that the only way out of the pain is to do the opposite of what our logical mind would say through living by the heart? Instead of giving in to defeat we fight and press on by clinging to the love of Jesus found in the gospels. Sounds like you are choosing to fight and press on. Remember, Paul too had to continue pressing on throughout his life. Stand firm!
I hope you keep seeking.
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wondering04
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 1/9/2004 3:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Quest, thanks for your responses.
I guess that in one sense I would rather be honest than to pretend that I am what I am not in relationship to God. I assume it would be worse to be a hypocrite. I may not always volunteer my questions and concerns to others, but at the same time I will not pretend to trust more than I honestly do trust.
QUEST: Why did Christ have to experience the pain and feel the abandonment? Why did he need to die to overcome sin when he could have destroyed it and the one who causes the pain both you and Jesus had experienced? Could it be that to have freedom there has to be choice? Choice means there is more than one way -- there is more than God's way.
HEATHER; Maybe I am wrong about this, and this does not undermine the sacrifice Jesus made, but didn't he choose to make it? I know that I would not be able to make that choice, but the truth of the matter is that HE did MAKE the choice. He made it probably before the world was formed. The difference is that what happened to me I did not CHOOSE. It was committed against me. So the freedom seems to be rather one sided in my case. The freedom was given to my father, but I was not given the freedom of choice.
Of course, you could argue that NOW I have the freedom to assume certain attitudes about what happened to me. I can choose to dwell in the past or move forward. Obviously, because I am alive, I chose to move forward, about 20 years ago I chose death over life. Yes, I am in the great mop up of what happened to me, and I realize that I can either let the past defeat me or move on. I am trying to move on, but that doesn't erase the anger that I have against God that He allowed me to be put in a place where I have to mop up. He could have been a better protector.
And yes, I realize that I do not have exclusivity to pain. There are people out there in way worse shape than me, there is a lot of evil and pain in the world. Realy makes me angry that there isn't less pain.
QUEST: Perhaps God did not stop the injustice, the deception, the lie that happened to you and was planted in your brain when you were a young girl BUT He offers a way to move beyond it through exposing the lie that was planted with the truth found in the bible. If you want to know the love of God it might help to CHOOSE to believe what the bible says about how important you are to God instead of believing the lie implanted from BAD choices your parents made.
HEATHER: Could God not choose to show me in a way that I can perceive that He does really love me this much? How come others feel the loving presence of God, feel that he impacts their lives? I chose enough to believe God for salvation and the fact that He created the Universe. But am not sure if He really has that personal interest in my life. I sometimes feel that I am pretty much on my own.
QUEST: I encourage you to keep seeking but know that NO ONE will EVER see clearly until they pass from this life. Right now we see through a glass dimly. We are stuck in an existence that is limited and finite. We are only able to understand and comprehend a small, minute percentage of what's really going on.
HEATHER: Yes, I would agree with that, but I am not certain that much more will be understandable when we pass from this life. I think that we, as humans have to comfort ourselves with the idea that things will be explained in the sweet by and by. But why should God change any more then than He is now? Maybe we are just to buck up and say, Yes, God you are sovereign. And don't ask any questions. To me, though, that is not a real relationship which is a communication. It is just fatalistic acceptance of what comes our way.
QUEST: Nor am I or a lot of other people I know and encounter. Life is NOT fair -- just look around. People are abusing chemicals trying to find some relief from the pain. Suicide is the number one killer among the young. Credit card debt is climbing. Sexual promiscuity is running rampant. Some people are living on the streets with no place to call home. Some children will die before their time through child abuse. Young parents die from cancer leaving behind small children. People are starving.... WHAT IS GOING ON!!! What is the answer?
HEATHER; YES, my point exactly, but now after what the Bible says 6000 or so odd years, shouldn't some stuff be improved if God was really there trying even with a little bit of His omnipotent power.
QUEST: Could the answer be that the only way out of the pain is to do the opposite of what our logical mind would say through living by the heart? Instead of giving in to defeat we fight and press on by clinging to the love of Jesus found in the gospels. Sounds like you are choosing to fight and press on. Remember, Paul too had to continue pressing on throughout his life. Stand firm!
HEATHER: Yes I press on, and right now, when depression sets in I press on just for my kids' sake. I don't think, though that I cling much to the love of God or Jesus, except intellectually. Yes, Paul continued on as well. I really don't know what the answer is, but then again I am not even sure I have the right question.
HEATHER: I do trust the Bible to be truth, and I know that one catch phrase among Christians is "Feelings are not facts." They spout that off when they don't want to deal with the idea that their impressions are not in agreement with the Word. But at some point, shouldn't your feelings and the facts come into agreement? Or do you just repress the negative and pretend that the positive is true?
I will continue seeking, but will not count on too many answers.
Heather
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/9/2004 4:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I will not pretend to trust more than I honestly do trust.
And I personally thank you for being this real! My investment into discussing this isn't to try to get you to believe the way I do nor to argue for my view (since my view is always under construction) My investment is to share what I have come to understand and how I have been able to deal with the questions you are bringing up. I have enjoyed corresponding with you because I appreciate learning what/how other people think and believe.... Thank you for engaging me in conversation -- your responses are helping me to think through this a bit more.
quote:
The difference is that what happened to me I did not CHOOSE. It was committed against me. So the freedom seems to be rather one sided in my case. The freedom was given to my father, but I was not given the freedom of choice.
Yes, that makes sense. I guess what I was getting at was that Jesus cried in the garden to have the cup pass and then added not his will but God's be done. I was presenting a question of why God would will for Jesus to be tortured when he was crying to have "this cup pass"...... God did not prevent the suffering (although he could have) even though Jesus was sinless: Children are also innocent yet bad things happen to children all the time so how do we make sense of this while holding to a God of love? The only conclusion I can see is that due to free choice there will be horrid and bad things that happen to innocent victims. There is two opposing sides in this spiritual war and unfortunately the innocent sometimes get caught in the crossfire.
quote:
I am trying to move on, but that doesn't erase the anger that I have against God that He allowed me to be put in a place where I have to mop up. He could have been a better protector.
Why "try" to move on? Have you ever presented your anger to God directly through letting it all go and waiting for a response? I love the book of Psalms -- it has always been an encouragement to me. David was real before God and didn't hold back. God wants ALL of us which includes our anger and our doubts about Him.
quote:
But why should God change any more then than He is now? Maybe we are just to buck up and say, Yes, God you are sovereign. And don't ask any questions. To me, though, that is not a real relationship which is a communication. It is just fatalistic acceptance of what comes our way.
Be REAL before God in your conversations. Share your struggles and ask for Him to reveal himself to you. Then do your part through actively seeking the revelation of God's love through reading the truth in the bible. Keep in the back of your mind, however, that there is a spiritual war going on and your enemy wants nothing more than to keep you from experiencing and feeling the love of God. Faith is an active thing hence we must be the manager of our minds. Does this make sense?
quote:
Could God not choose to show me in a way that I can perceive that He does really love me this much? How come others feel the loving presence of God, feel that he impacts their lives? I chose enough to believe God for salvation and the fact that He created the Universe. But am not sure if He really has that personal interest in my life. I sometimes feel that I am pretty much on my own.
quote:
I don't think, though that I cling much to the love of God or Jesus, except intellectually.
Sounds to me like you're living in by your logical mind. I believe to find life you will need to live by the heart, by the spirit. I pray that God will touch your inner most being (your heart) and fill your spirit with truth and life.
I wonder how you represent God in your mind? What/who comes to your mind when you think of God? Perhaps it's your image of God that needs refining?
Continue on in being real and in seeking. Be encouraged that your questions are a blessing to God -- it means you are seeking. Thanks again for the conversation -- it is inspiring for me. | | Back to Top | | |
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wondering04
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 1/10/2004 2:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Quest,
HEATHER: Again, thanks for the discussion. What would it gain me to not be real? I look forward to people's ideas and views because there is so much that I do not know. I too am curious because it seems that some have found the right way to approach this that seems to be extremely fulfilling for them. For me, I am trying to figure out the puzzle of how to walk this Christian path. In Acts they kept calling it the Way. I can relate to that as I keep wondering which way to go (she says smiling), and in Christianity there seems to be so many ways and compelling arguments for each and every one.
QUEST: Yes, that makes sense. I guess what I was getting at was that Jesus cried in the garden to have the cup pass and then added not his will but God's be done. I was presenting a question of why God would will for Jesus to be tortured when he was crying to have "this cup pass"...... God did not prevent the suffering (although he could have) even though Jesus was sinless: Children are also innocent yet bad things happen to children all the time so how do we make sense of this while holding to a God of love? The only conclusion I can see is that due to free choice there will be horrid and bad things that happen to innocent victims. There is two opposing sides in this spiritual war and unfortunately the innocent sometimes get caught in the crossfire.
HEATHER: I know that that seems to be what is advocated on this site. But sometimes I look at the Bible and see all the times God intervened and destroyed whole armies without a single sword being used, how he confused the Egyptians with darkness, turned back time, added years to the life of people, and even brought on plagues and destroyed people by swallowing them up in holes. Is it not possible that a God with so much might and power could intervene more?
One time, when someone mentioned how cruel God's destruction of a whole city was, our pastor pointed out that if you found a rat in your kitchen you will kill it, and then look for all the offspring and kill them as well, because unchecked, the rat population in your house could multiply by staggering amounts. Seems that God has ignored some of the rats in this world and because of that, there is way too much pain and hurt.
I do know that someone will point out that even a little sin is bad by God's standards, so where do you draw the line. That I am not sure of, but I do know that even today I cry when I come across little ones who have been so hurt by life. When a 13 year old boy has gives up on himself (as one child told me he did when I was helping out at school), or you see the ones who suffer through horrendous divorces of their parents, and then you know that one out of every 4 will be sexually abused, where does it stop?
Some people point out that during the millenium that Jesus will come down and rule and reign properly for 1000 years and do it right. Will people have free will then? Or will they just be sent to the pit? If Jesus can do it during the millenium, why can't God do something now? Too late for me, but I guarantee that even today hundreds of thousands could sure use God's intervention.
QUEST: Why "try" to move on? Have you ever presented your anger to God directly through letting it all go and waiting for a response? I love the book of Psalms -- it has always been an encouragement to me. David was real before God and didn't hold back. God wants ALL of us which includes our anger and our doubts about Him.
HEATHER: Before I said the sinner's prayer I used to rage at God. At the time I thought it was horrid of me, but then realized that that was the first I had talked to God in years, so maybe it was ok. Now I get the response that I have no right to be angry at God. That I have to watch carefully what I say or do or for that matter think, so that I do not say do or think ungodly things, as that is not correct.
I too like the book of Psalms and recently completed the Beth Moore study of David, so I know what you mean about that. Someone also suggested being angry at the person who caused the problem in the first place, satan, but even that sort of scares me.
I think right now the problem is that I do not yet separate God from my earthly father. I don't know if this God will rage (he did so in the OT), if people make mistakes or do not please Him, what will he do? Will I find myself at the bottom of a pit? I know that Greg Boyd says that look at Jesus to understand God's heart. Would Jesus have turned Job over to satan? God did. Somehow I don't think it is always accurate to compare God and Jesus. I know that I still have a lot of confusion about this, so I hope that my doubts do not rub anyone the wrong way, I am not meaning to be fippant, it is just that somehow I need to sort this stuff out.
QUEST: Be REAL before God in your conversations. Share your struggles and ask for Him to reveal himself to you. Then do your part through actively seeking the revelation of God's love through reading the truth in the bible. Keep in the back of your mind, however, that there is a spiritual war going on and your enemy wants nothing more than to keep you from experiencing and feeling the love of God. Faith is an active thing hence we must be the manager of our minds. Does this make sense?
HEATHER: I do read and study the Bible each day, and not just a quick read through, it is almost like I want to find the real meat, not just the words. I realize that there is a spiritual war going on, and even my pastor told me once that satan lost a powerful ally when I got saved, and that he would love to get me back into his kingdom. I had done much in the occult for many, many, many years, and if I lived in the OT days I would have been stoned for my occult activities. So I can kind of see that point, but at the same time, I really need to sort this stuff out. I do not like being this perplexed about things.
Heather
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/11/2004 1:21 PM (GMT -6) | |
Wondering: While I can see this in a philosophical sense, it does very little to fill that empty void inside.
Doc: Our feelings are all associated with pictures in our head. I'd encourage you to take the teaching on God Iconoclast presented an INCARNATE IT in your head wondering04. SEE Jesus love you, HEAR Jesus speak loving words to you, SENSE his arms around you.
ONLY CONCRETE TRUTH OF IS OF ANY HELP.
Wondering: I sometimes wonder at God who would allow his Son to go through that.
Doc: Remember that the God who allowed his Son to die was the God who died! Jesus wasn't "a third party" to the God-human problem. He was the God-human who was the problem.... and the solution.
Wondering: I quit,at the age of 8 asking for protection, and I never as for material things. That is why I don't understand why God cannot answer these prayers. The only answer I can come up with is that He does not want to deal with me at all.
Doc: The presupposition behind your stance is that God's will is the only variable that affects the outcome of prayer, and the only activity that matters is activity that guarantees a result. But consider the possibility that
a) God's will isn't the only variable that affects how prayer affects the world... there are multitudes of other wills as well, and
b) that the power of prayer is one of INFLUENCE, not control. Prayer for protection, blessings, etc... has an INFLUENCE in these directions, but does not INSURE particular outcomes -- because there are other variables besides God. (I discuss this at length in Is God To Blame?
Wondering: it still comes down to the fact that, if God was impotent in helping to stop my abuse when I was 8, what kept him from providing comfort for me in the midst of it. I was very isolated and alone with all that I was facing, and even a sense of God's presence would have been helpful. Instead, I had the wall next to my bed.
Doc: We had remarkably similar childhoods Wondering. My world was a painful, threatening, lonely place most of my childhood. I can now intellectually understand why the world has to be the kind of place where this can happen. But more importantly, I can testify that healing IS POSSIBLE. TOTAL healing. For this to happen, however, you have to become convinced of the love of God FOR YOU and SEE, FEEL and HEAR this in your "inner sanctuary."
Wondering: Iconoclast, you are right. Part of what I am dealing with is that I don't feel all that lovable.
Doc: Precisely. And all feelings are associated with the movies, tapes, memores, pictures etc. we hold in our head. Healing comes when we allow God's view of us to have more credibility to us that OUR OWN view of ourselves (which is polluted by past experirence, culture, etc...)
Wondering: the reason why He did nothing is because He wants nothing to do with me.
Doc: With this suspicion in your head, its no wonder you FEEL unloved and that God is distant, etc... Wonderng, you must by faith RESOLVE to believe God, revealed on the cross, regardless of what your brain says. Jesus reveals the truth about God to us and the truth about us to God. God stance toward you is Jesus. And your standing before God is Jesus. The cross reveals that you are a sinner but also that you are forgiven, loved and redeemed in Christ.
Wondering: Would that God could be more real to me than a wish or a dream or a hope.
Doc: Find the "inner sanctuary". Surrender your imagination over to him, and to truth, as defined on Calvary. What is "real" to us has everything to do with what WE are doing in OUR HEAD.
I pray you find the healing you need and that God wants you to have Wondering. IT IS POSSIBLE.
Doc
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 1/11/2004 2:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Heather – I have been silently reading your posts for several weeks now. I am more a quiet reader on this site than an active participant, but feel compelled to join in the discussion. First, I’d like to say how sorry I am for what you have gone through in your childhood – I can’t even begin to put myself in your shoes. I was fortunate to grow up without abuse or without ever doubting the love of my parents, and can’t imagine what it must have been like to grow up otherwise.
However, despite our vastly different childhoods, I can totally relate to your questions and struggles. I still consider myself a new, immature Christian and also wrestle with the very same issues that you have presented here. I, too, feel like my relationship with God is more fear-based than love-based and struggle with the problem of evil and the seeming arbitrariness of answered/unanswered prayer. I’ve led a pretty comfortable, pain-free life – no tragedies, no unbearable suffering, countless blessings – yet I often worry what will happen the day that adversity does strike. Will my relationship with God be strengthened, or will it disintegrate? I honestly can’t answer that question at this stage of my life. I, too, am still longing and seeking the kind of relationship with Christ that can withstand any adversity or tough theological questions.
One of the issues you present – how can a good, loving God allow such evil in this world, particularly evil directed toward innocent, defenseless children – simply defies any type of satisfactory explanation. To say that God grants us freedom to make evil choices so that we can be free to love still leaves open the question, well why can’t an omnipotent God intervene – at least just a little -- in certain circumstances? If He couldn’t act to stop the free will abusive actions of your father, why couldn’t He at least provide you comfort through some other intervention? Are all the workings of the world truly so intertwined that intervention in certain isolated cases really interfere with freedom and the overall plan of the universe?
One response I have is that maybe God does intervene in our lives much more than we realize and perhaps there are instances where God does minimize our suffering – but we simply have no way of knowing this. Maybe He delayed my leaving the house today to avoid a fatal accident. Maybe God responded – in some limited way - to your abuse as a child. Of course, this is all unprovable speculation, but it is possible, isn’t it? And isn’t concluding that God did not intervene in a particular situation just as unprovable as saying that He did?
Another way I look at this problem is to analogize the situation to my role as a parent. There are certain things that I do, or say, or allow to happen to my young children that, in their limited minds, is mean and unloving. I don’t purchase every toy they desire so they don’t become greedy and spoiled; I limit their sugar consumption to prevent future health problems and a propensity for sweets; I don’t intervene in their mild altercations to teach them how to solve problems for themselves; etc. Now all this is quite reasonable to us adults, but my young children simply don’t have the ability or perspective to see beyond their own desires to understand that my actions are truly in their best interests and not just me being a mean mommy. And so I think perhaps it is this way with God. We are children with such a limited intellect that we simply can’t conceive why God acts or doesn’t act or can’t act to alleviate our pain, and any explanation that our limited minds can surmise remains unprovable, specious, and/or unsatisfactory.
So doesn’t it all just come down to this: can we simply trust God when He tells us that He loves us, even though His actions or lack thereof may seem to indicate otherwise? Don’t we ask this of our children – that they trust in our love, that they trust that we are acting in their best interests – although they may sometimes naively view our actions as indicative of the opposite? As a parent, I have drummed this concept of unconditional love into the heads of my two girls. After every punishment, and before they fall asleep every night I tell them, “I love you, no matter what you say, no matter what you do.” And I know that they love me, no matter what I say or do. Can I say the same to God? Do I love Him, as my children love me, even when they perceive my actions as unfair or arbitrary? Can I love God simply because He is my Heavenly Father, and not because of the numerous blessings that have been bestowed upon me? Can I love Him, while still viewing His actions (or lack thereof) as unfair and arbitrary? I can’t honestly say that ’m there yet myself.
Sorry for all this rambling, but the issues you are dealing with are close to my heart and those with which I struggle on an ongoing basis. I just wanted to share my thoughts with you and let you know you are certainly not alone in your thinking.
BTW, I think it is great how Greg, Quest, Tom, etc. have put so much time in responding to the important questions you have raised and done so with love and respect. It’s wonderful to have an Internet community where such concerns can be intelligently and respectfully discussed. Thank you, Greg Boyd, for making this possible.
Heather, I truly admire how far you have come in your faith journey. You are actively seeking a better relationship with Him, you have poured yourself into the bible, and you have the integrity and honesty to ask difficult questions of God and others. God bless you as you continue to question and grow.  | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/11/2004 5:24 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree with you Leila, "Thank you, Greg Boyd, for making this possible." We NEED one another to press on.
quote:
I know that that seems to be what is advocated on this site. But sometimes I look at the Bible and see all the times God intervened and destroyed whole armies without a single sword being used, how he confused the Egyptians with darkness, turned back time, added years to the life of people, and even brought on plagues and destroyed people by swallowing them up in holes. Is it not possible that a God with so much might and power could intervene more?
Both in the Old and New testament God intervened sometimes but not always. I believe there are many reasons for this. One is that there is a spiritual war and the other is that due to God giving us ALL free choice sometimes evil wins. I'm sure there are other reasons for why sometimes people are healed while other times they are not but the thing is that this is consistent throughout the whole of history not just in the Old Testament.
quote:
I think right now the problem is that I do not yet separate God from my earthly father. I don't know if this God will rage (he did so in the OT), if people make mistakes or do not please Him, what will he do? Will I find myself at the bottom of a pit? I know that Greg Boyd says that look at Jesus to understand God's heart. Would Jesus have turned Job over to Satan? God did. Somehow I don't think it is always accurate to compare God and Jesus. I know that I still have a lot of confusion about thiseven today I cry when I come across little ones who have been so hurt by life. When a 13 year old boy has gives up on himself (as one child told me he did when I was helping out at school), or you see the ones who suffer through horrendous divorces of their parents, and then you know that one out of every 4 will be sexually abused, where does it stop?
Greg Boyd said, "The cross reveals that you are a sinner but also that you are forgiven, loved and redeemed in Christ"
The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. Throughout scripture God's heart has been one and the same. God/Jesus knocks at our heart's door. The message throughout the bible is one of love and grace. The bible says repent and accept God's love and grace. God is not interested in our actions but rather in our hearts. The problem with the Pharisees was that they believed their good works could buy them the grace that God gives to us for free. It's not about us doing or being good enough but rather about us coming to a place where we acknowledge that we need him if we want to escape from the enemies grip. God isn't waiting to rage if we don't please him but he is waiting for us to surrender to his love.
I know that the imaginative prayer I suggested before doesn't feel real. Perhaps you could meditate on who God says your are by reading some verses in the bible that talk of God's love and apply your name in them. Or perhaps listening to music that can minister to your soul could draw you closer and help you experience God's love. I believe the key isn't found in your trying to experience God's love but rather in your resting in it. Experiment and do what works for you.
I will be praying for you.
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wondering04
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 1/12/2004 7:27 AM (GMT -6) | | I too want to say thanks for this website. It is very comforting to know that one can express questions, doubts, concerns and be met with kind, caring and thoughtful responses. I have been given much food for thought from the people who have responded to me, and I really want you to know that what you are saying is being considered, and even applied in many cases, or at least attempted.
Doc: Our feelings are all associated with pictures in our head. I'd encourage you to take the teaching on God Iconoclast presented an INCARNATE IT in your head wondering04. SEE Jesus love you, HEAR Jesus speak loving words to you, SENSE his arms around you.
Heather: Believe it or not, I seriously did attempt that, and am not having success. I suppose there is still a lot of garbage that must be cleaned up before I could even think of seeing things this way. It is funny, but many people seem to go straight to Jesus for comfort and solice, but in reality, for me it is easier to go to an image of God, sort of distant and not so personal. The concept of a personal savior kind of scares me. But I also know that in this my thinking is in error, I am just not certain how to do this.
In the midst of the abuse as a child, I actually sometimes daydreamed about real parents who loved me, but the problem was it was a daydream and I always had to come back to reality. I am just curious how imagining God as loving can translate into reality. When your new book is published I will most certainly seek to acquire it.
Doc: Remember that the God who allowed his Son to die was the God who died! Jesus wasn't "a third party" to the God-human problem. He was the God-human who was the problem.... and the solution.
Heather: that is true, something that does not always stay in the forefront of my mind.
Doc: The presupposition behind your stance is that God's will is the only variable that affects the outcome of prayer, and the only activity that matters is activity that guarantees a result. But consider the possibility that
a) God's will isn't the only variable that affects how prayer affects the world... there are multitudes of other wills as well, and
b) that the power of prayer is one of INFLUENCE, not control. Prayer for protection, blessings, etc... has an INFLUENCE in these directions, but does not INSURE particular outcomes -- because there are other variables besides God. (I discuss this at length in Is God To Blame?
Heather, yes, I read that book recently, and it was one of the first books of yours that I read. I kind of understand your point that there are other principalities and powers, that there are problems with free will and determinism, and there are other powers such as satan that interfere with God's plans. That combined with your letters to a Skeptic book helped to sort some of these things out. But for me the core question then comes about how much can we trust a God who can't really protect us because of all the evil in the world.
I do realize that that is a rather myopic view, and many people find comfort in thinking things will be better in heaven, but will it? The angels rebelled in heaven, and were then cast down. What makes us believe that heaven is going to be any better than earth? Just a disquieting thought.
Doc: We had remarkably similar childhoods Wondering. My world was a painful, threatening, lonely place most of my childhood. I can now intellectually understand why the world has to be the kind of place where this can happen. But more importantly, I can testify that healing IS POSSIBLE. TOTAL healing. For this to happen, however, you have to become convinced of the love of God FOR YOU and SEE, FEEL and HEAR this in your "inner sanctuary."
Heather, I am so sorry to hear that you too suffered a horrid world as a child. I do intellectually understand some of this, but that doesn't mean that it has sunk the 19 inches or so to my heart. I have spent two years seriously searching the scriptures just for that glimmer that maybe God does have that great love for me. It hasn't penetrated the inner sanctuary yet because there are still too many guards around that sanctuary.
I think that lately my current reading of the OT is very much showing me how God had his hand in a lot of plans. Some of them are confusing, but at least I am beginning to see a glimmering of how much God did work to bring about certain outcomes. A few new ideas that have begun to creep in, probably ones that are duhs to those who have been Christian for such a long time, are that God's time frame is vastly different from ours. That some plans took years to execute like the freeing of the Israelites from Egypt took 400 years, because God wanted to give the people in the promised land a chance to repent before he enacted vengence. I realize that God's plan is for the salvation of lots of souls, and that He is willing to wait to see if this comes about. But I cannot get over intense anger at God that He allows people to get hurt in order to let this come to pass.
I also realize that most people spout off the idea that God can restore what has been destroyed by evil, that God will even things out, and that things in heaven will be great after our painful sojourn on earth. I sometimes think it would be better to eliminate the middle man (earth) and forget it, in lieu of reduction of pain and hurt.
But then again what are we, mere peons, to do? We really have no right to question a soverign God, and if we do, we don't really get told anything, all we have to do is trust by faith. I still think all those little words, faith, hope, trust are difficult.
Doc: Precisely. And all feelings are associated with the movies, tapes, memores, pictures etc. we hold in our head. Healing comes when we allow God's view of us to have more credibility to us that OUR OWN view of ourselves (which is polluted by past experirence, culture, etc...)
Heather: But what is God's view of us? We have one aspect of it, but we don't have all aspects of it. From one point of view we see Jesus who loves us, but in all honesty, from another point of view we also have God who uses people in pawns, sacrificing some for the greater good. He even bets with the lives of his people, consider Job.
Doc: With this suspicion in your head, its no wonder you FEEL unloved and that God is distant, etc... Wonderng, you must by faith RESOLVE to believe God, revealed on the cross, regardless of what your brain says. Jesus reveals the truth about God to us and the truth about us to God. God stance toward you is Jesus. And your standing before God is Jesus. The cross reveals that you are a sinner but also that you are forgiven, loved and redeemed in Christ.
Heather: I am working on this one. I think that there is a part that believes and another part that tends to run other tapes as well. I suppose that as I learn more, that this may be easier to accept, but I guess that there is way too much suspicion in my mind to easily accept this kind of love. I think it boils down to intellectual verses heart knowledge. Intellectually you can say the words, but it is much harder to believe in your heart.
Wondering: Would that God could be more real to me than a wish or a dream or a hope.
Doc: Find the "inner sanctuary". Surrender your imagination over to him, and to truth, as defined on Calvary. What is "real" to us has everything to do with what WE are doing in OUR HEAD.
Heather: Oh, I'll bite, how does one find this inner sanctuary? Could use a map.
Thanks for your prayers, and thanks for this website where questions can be sorted out.
Right now I am reading your God of the Possible, and marking off questionable passages. You do provide much food for thought and interesting ideas.
Heather
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wondering04
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 1/12/2004 8:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Leila,
Thanks for responding. It does my heart good to know that there are those who have not grown up with abuse. But one thing I know is that pain is pain. Even if a person's circumstances are different, we all encounter pain and hurt in our lives. There is no way to say one pain is greater or lesser than another. Pain is pain, and when you are in the midst of the crisis, the pain is real and intense. You really cannot compare or put a meter to pain.
LEILA: I, too, feel like my relationship with God is more fear-based than love-based and struggle with the problem of evil and the seeming arbitrariness of answered/unanswered prayer. I’ve led a pretty comfortable, pain-free life – no tragedies, no unbearable suffering, countless blessings – yet I often worry what will happen the day that adversity does strike. Will my relationship with God be strengthened, or will it disintegrate? I honestly can’t answer that question at this stage of my life. I, too, am still longing and seeking the kind of relationship with Christ that can withstand any adversity or tough theological questions.
HEATHER; Perhaps that is a question that all ask. I once asked my pastor why some people seem to take to Christianity like a duck to water and others like me have to struggle. He pointed out that those who seem to have easy, quick, pain-free conversions are sometimes (not always) more shallow in their relationship. And he says that when trouble hits, that many time the relationship with God falls to the wayside. He then told me that the struggles and seeking that I am doing, while uncomfortable and unsettling, is building grain of sand by grain of sand a more solid foundation that will not be shattered by a tragedy. Perhaps the same thing is happening with you and your relationship. Your seeking and struggling is building a solid and firm foundation that will not be shattered when a crisis comes.
LEILA: One response I have is that maybe God does intervene in our lives much more than we realize and perhaps there are instances where God does minimize our suffering – but we simply have no way of knowing this. Maybe He delayed my leaving the house today to avoid a fatal accident. Maybe God responded – in some limited way - to your abuse as a child. Of course, this is all unprovable speculation, but it is possible, isn’t it? And isn’t concluding that God did not intervene in a particular situation just as unprovable as saying that He did?
HEATHER: You have a good point here. I know that there are times in my past when I should have been dead, or made very wrong choices that did not come to pass. Maybe God did intervene in a way that I did not perceive. I don't know if God intervened or not, but you are right, there is no way to prove it one way or another.
There is a quandry. I know that part of me wants to see something tangible, but if it is tangible, then it no longer is faith. Also the Israelites sure saw a lot of tangible miracles, from plagues to partings of the Red Sea and the Jordan River, to manna, and pillars of light and clouds, etc. And that did not hold them from submitting to idols or disobeying God. I guess that in part maybe seeing is not all there is to believing. And I guess you could say that even with Thomas who believed after he saw and touched, that God felt it was more blessed to believe without seeing.
I know my thinking is making a shift due to the input of what I am reading in these posts, but it still is small comfort in some ways. People state that God can heal these hurts, but I am not seeing tangible results in it. There is still the void, and not enough of feeling the presence of God.
LEILA: Another way I look at this problem is to analogize the situation to my role as a parent. There are certain things that I do, or say, or allow to happen to my young children that, in their limited minds, is mean and unloving. ... Now all this is quite reasonable to us adults, but my young children simply don’t have the ability or perspective to see beyond their own desires to understand that my actions are truly in their best interests and not just me being a mean mommy. And so I think perhaps it is this way with God. We are children with such a limited intellect that we simply can’t conceive why God acts or doesn’t act or can’t act to alleviate our pain, and any explanation that our limited minds can surmise remains unprovable, specious, and/or unsatisfactory.
HEATHER; Oh, having three kids of my own I can relate to that! Often with surprising frequency I am either hated or loved, and they do not understand all the decisions. And you are right, there is much we don't understand or conceive about why God acts or doesn't act. And I can understand that we have many, many life lessons to learn. But there are some things I would never stand by and let happen to my kids. There are some pains that I would protect them from every time. I have no problem with God not answering some prayer requests. I have no problem with God saying no, or ignoring our minor spats. But there are some things that do not equate. Like loving God permitting child abuse, or loving God permitting Hitler. Granted we do not understand all things God does and why, but there are some that I don't think any amount of faith would make easy to swallow.
LEILA: So doesn’t it all just come down to this: can we simply trust God when He tells us that He loves us, even though His actions or lack thereof may seem to indicate otherwise? Don’t we ask this of our children – that they trust in our love, that they trust that we are acting in their best interests – although they may sometimes naively view our actions as indicative of the opposite?
heather: I see what you are saying, but even my kids do question som some of my decisions. The trust is a relationship that is formed over time. As your kids receive consistent love and discipline they grow to trust it more and more. I guess that maybe that is a vague possibility between God and me, but right now the communication seems to be one way, and I haven't felt all that safe under God's protection. So maybe it will just take time.
LEILA: Sorry for all this rambling, but the issues you are dealing with are close to my heart and those with which I struggle on an ongoing basis. I just wanted to share my thoughts with you and let you know you are certainly not alone in your thinking.
Heather: Thanks for sharing. It is good to know that I am not the only one struggling with these things.
Heather
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wondering04
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 1/12/2004 1:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Quest, sorry it took long to respond. Had to be taxi service for my kids and write an article for our local paper about my Girl Scout troop's awards and dedication ceremony. My girls spent some time making hats for needy children and I wanted them to receive credit for their hard work.
QUEST: Both in the Old and New testament God intervened sometimes but not always. I believe there are many reasons for this. One is that there is a spiritual war and the other is that due to God giving us ALL free choice sometimes evil wins. I'm sure there are other reasons for why sometimes people are healed while other times they are not but the thing is that this is consistent throughout the whole of history not just in the Old Testament.
Heather; You are right, this is part of all of history, not just in the OT. I think somehow I am having to become resigned to the spiritual war concept. I know that it is also pointed out in the Bible when angelic messengers are detained by the Prince of Persia, etc.
LAIKA: Greg Boyd said, "The cross reveals that you are a sinner but also that you are forgiven, loved and redeemed in Christ"
The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. Throughout scripture God's heart has been one and the same. God/Jesus knocks at our heart's door. The message throughout the bible is one of love and grace. The bible says repent and accept God's love and grace. God is not interested in our actions but rather in our hearts. The problem with the Pharisees was that they believed their good works could buy them the grace that God gives to us for free. It's not about us doing or being good enough but rather about us coming to a place where we acknowledge that we need him if we want to escape from the enemies grip. God isn't waiting to rage if we don't please him but he is waiting for us to surrender to his love.
Heather: And here is the crux of where I am right now. I feel I am somewhat straddling the wilderness and the promised land. Kind of like where Joshua was in the OT. I am not at a point where I can fully embrace all that is promised by the new land, but at the same time no longer exactly fit in the old way of thinking. I realize it is not works, but a gift of grace. I am just not used to gifts that don't come with a lot of painful strings attached. And unfortunately being able to accept love from God is one of the things that just isn't fixed inside of me yet. Maybe one day, but right now all that I am conscious of is a ache of the soul that isn't receptive to what God is offering. Maybe I am just one of those hardened hearts cases. I am not certain.
LAIKA: I know that the imaginative prayer I suggested before doesn't feel real. Perhaps you could meditate on who God says your are by reading some verses in the bible that talk of God's love and apply your name in them. Or perhaps listening to music that can minister to your soul could draw you closer and help you experience God's love. I believe the key isn't found in your trying to experience God's love but rather in your resting in it. Experiment and do what works for you.
I will be praying for you.
Heather: Most especially, thanks for your prayers. I, believe it or not, do much of what you suggest. I do pray the word, I do read and study the word, not like a novel, but like a treasure chest trying to mine out as much as I can from the Word. Whenever possible I do listen to music, and I do pray. I know you may find this hard to believe, but compared to where I was in "relationship" (I say that provisionally) with God, I am much closer today then two years ago. I do pursue, and supposedly if we keep seeking we will find. I do keep seeking, but haven't found yet.
Heather
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