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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/12/2004 6:07 PM (GMT -6) |   | Heather: It is funny, but many people seem to go straight to Jesus for comfort and solice, but in reality, for me it is easier to go to an image of God, sort of distant and not so personal. The concept of a personal savior kind of scares me. But I also know that in this my thinking is in error, I am just not certain how to do this.
Doc: Of course you're more comfortable with a distant and impersonal god. OF course a personal god scares you. When we've internalized shame, we, like Adam and Eve, want to hide. But Heather, the only thing that heals is TRUTH. And the truth is that God IS up close and personal. The truth is that he's madly in love with you. And the sooner you represent this vividly in your head, the sooner you'll experience the truth that God is loved and you are loved.
IMAGINE (you can... its YOUR brain) Jesus' eyes two inches away from your eyes. SEE his love. Hear him say all the things he says about you in Scripture, but with YOUR name attached. The intimacy is peircing. The love is unbearable. We want to scream out every reason why he shouldn't love us. GO AHEAD. But REFUSE TO LOOK AWAY. His peircing love, thundering threw those eyes, will eventually convince you that there is no reason you could give him that would turn him aside.
According to Scripture, the only temptation he has to look away is that HE CAN'T TAKE YOUR BEAUTY.
Song 4:9 ¶ You have ravished my heart, my sister, my bride,
you have ravished my heart with a glance of your eyes,
with one jewel of your necklace.
Song 6:5 Turn away your eyes from me,
for they overwhelm me!
Heather: In the midst of the abuse as a child, I actually sometimes daydreamed about real parents who loved me, but the problem was it was a daydream and I always had to come back to reality.
Doc: I used to fantasize over this statue of the virgin Mary holding Christ while sitting in mass (EVERY MORNING!!!). I thought what a wonderful mom, how lucky Jesus was, etc... But you know what, those fantasies, those imaginative representations of the heart, are clues to reality Heather. They point in the direction of the parent we were created to have. We created to be children of the most High God. Those fantasies maybe took you away from a harsh earthly reality -- but they were also pointing you (and me) to a beautiful divine reality.
INDULGE them... and direct them toward Christ. Never was there a more perfect father, or mother, than Jesus. You can't OVER THINK he's/ her beauty.
IHeather: What makes us believe that heaven is going to be any better than earth? Just a disquieting thought.
Doc: Heather, you've GOT to resolve you're belief system. You are double minded (Ja.1), so you are tossed about by whatever impulse or feeling is strongest at the moment. Help yourself, Heather, and become a disciple of your mind. Take charge.
Jesus, Paul, and everybody in Scripture tell us that the Kingdom of God will be incomparably better than this present prelude/warzone period. If you're persistently wondering if they're right or not, all their teaching will benefit you little. Resolve its true and then enter it with your full imagination.
Heather: I have spent two years seriously searching the scriptures just for that glimmer that maybe God does have that great love for me. It hasn't penetrated the inner sanctuary yet because there are still too many guards around that sanctuary.
Doc: I wouldn't search scripture for glimmers of God's love, heather. In your condition, its as likely to damage you as to help you. FOCUS ON JESUS where you find not a glimmer, but a giant SUN, not a whisper but a SHOUT. On the cross he screams THIS IS FOR YOU BECAUSE I LOVE YOU. He is the final definitive Word, Image, expression, and revelation of the one God. Everything else is a glimmer pointing to HIM (Jn. 1:1; 14:8-10; Col 1:15; Heb 1:3).
Heather: But I cannot get over intense anger at God that He allows people to get hurt in order to let this come to pass.
Doc: Focus on Jesus, the source of all revelation and transformation and healing (Jn 14:6; 2 Cor 3:17-18; Heb 12:2). Once you get this one down solid -- say in 2 or 3 years -- worry about the OT.
Heather: But what is God's view of us? We have one aspect of it, but we don't have all aspects of it.
Doc: In him the FULLNESS of the Godhead dwelt. (Col 2:9). He is the perfect expression of the very essence of God (Heb 1:3). Don't make Christ "an aspect" of God. He is God fully revealed. And here his view of us is fully revealed. EVERYTHING EVERYTHING EVERYTHING EVERYTHING[/.B] hangs on THIS. Heather... for your joy, your peace, your wholeness, your freedom, your ability to walk in total liberation from the past and as a full loving vibrant carefree human being.... CONSIDER EVERYTHING A DEMONIC DISTRACTION THAT DOES NOT LEAD YOU TO AND KEEP YOU FOCUSED ON JESUS.
ONE THING is needful. JESUS. The rest will take care of itself.
Heather: From one point of view we see Jesus who loves us, but in all honesty, from another point of view we also have God who uses people in pawns, sacrificing some for the greater good. He even bets with the lives of his people, consider Job.
Doc: I could go into explanations and theories and yada yada. All in good time. But for the next 2 or 3 years... forget it. Focus on JESUS. TRUST HIM. Don't qualify what you know about God in Jesus with what you DON'T know in Scripture or Experience. You're only hope of ever figuring out Scripture or Experience is by working from the known -- Jesus -- to the unknown.
Heather: I guess that there is way too much suspicion in my mind to easily accept this kind of love. I think it boils down to intellectual verses heart knowledge. Intellectually you can say the words, but it is much harder to believe in your heart.
Doc: You know. So you WILL. So You SEE IT (in the mind, 2 cor. 3:17-18)... so you eventually experience it and are transformed by it. Don't try to figure yourself out. Don't try to figure God out. Just KNOW JESUS. RESOLVE to believe Jesus. Will to bring every thought captive to Jesus (2 Cor 10"5). And then EXPERIENCE the transforming salvation of Jesus.
Heather: Right now I am reading your God of the Possible, and marking off questionable passages. You do provide much food for thought and interesting ideas.
Doc: If God of the Possible isn't pointing you to Jesus and helping you fall in love, consider it a demonic distraction and disguard it NOW. ONE THING ONE THING ONE THING MATTERS. And its NOT your view or my view of the future.
Its knowing Jesus and being known by Jesus.
In two years or so, get back to God of the Possible.
sorry for my extra passion here... Kind of God preaching didn't I? but for some reason, heather, I just got a bug up me to see you healed, whole, vibrant, laughing, dancing, carefree, fearless, joyful, and all of the radiant beautiful human being God wants you to be. And you CAN be.
But it all revolves around letting Christ on the cross define God before you (without remainder) and you before God (without remainder).
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 1/13/2004 2:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc says:
"I just got a bug up me to see you healed, whole, vibrant, laughing, dancing, carefree, fearless, joyful, and all of the radiant beautiful human being God wants you to be. And you CAN be."
I want to get in on that also!
peace, don
"Life is a gift from God, but the years have weight in them."
Terry Scott Taylor | | Back to Top | | |
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 1/13/2004 4:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Dr. Boyd -- I have really appreciated your posts to Heather. I'm sort of where she's at theologically, but saddled with different emotional baggage. So your posts are helpful to me as well.
You said to her: quote:
Focus on Jesus, the source of all revelation and transformation and healing (Jn 14:6; 2 Cor 3:17-18; Heb 12:2). Once you get this one down solid -- say in 2 or 3 years -- worry about the OT.
I thought this was interesting -- the implication that certain parts of the Bible could be unhelpful, or even destructive, for people like us who are immature in their faith.
A quick question: May I ask if you could suggest exactly which New Testament books people like us should focus on -- until we get to the point of truly experiencing the love of Jesus? I would really appreciate your guidance on this.
I'd also like to let you know how much Letters from a Skeptic has helped me as a new, questioning Christian. I read it several years ago, at a time when all my apologetic questions were met with disapproval and judgment and I had stopped attending church because I felt it had become more of a negative influence on me. Your words to your father spoke to my heart in ways no one else had, and for the first time I felt like it was ok to ask such questions. They helped me start dealing with the issues that were hindering my faith, gave me such encouragement, and helped me move forward on my spiritual journey. Thank you and your father for sharing your intimate exchanges. What a legacy he has provided. | | Back to Top | | |
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 1/13/2004 4:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by wondering04
LAIKA: Greg Boyd said, "The cross reveals that you are a sinner but also that you are forgiven, loved and redeemed in Christ"
LAIKA: I know that the imaginative prayer I suggested before doesn't
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That was probably LEILA that said that, not LAIKA. One's a thoughtful, kind person offering relevant advice, the other one is ME!
Thanks for the kind words Laika. I think you're kind and thoughtful, too!
BTW, it wasn't me Heather had quoted, but Quest! | | Back to Top | | |
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 1/13/2004 4:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Heather, It was nice to hear back from you. I'm glad that this discussion group has helped you somewhat.
You said:
quote:
He then told me that the struggles and seeking that I am doing, while uncomfortable and unsettling, is building grain of sand by grain of sand a more solid foundation that will not be shattered by a tragedy.
I like this way of looking at it. And I sometimes wonder about those who never have questions, and accept all the stories of the Bible with such ease. I wonder if such people are shining examples of what true faith is all about, or if they're just ostriches with their head in the sand, afraid to confront the tough questions and the discomfort that results. Are we better off with our struggles? I think questioning your faith can help solidify it, but that it can also be dangerous and depressing. I guess a couple of important variables are having mature Christian mentors you can talk with this stuff about -- something I long for, but do not have at this stage of my life. I think we also have to make sure that our questions don't get in the way of actually living the Christian life. I tend to think more than do, to talk about God more than to God -- these are things I really need to work on myself.
You also said:
quote:
But there are some things I would never stand by and let happen to my kids. There are some pains that I would protect them from every time....Like loving God permitting child abuse, or loving God permitting Hitler. Granted we do not understand all things God does and why, but there are some that I don't think any amount of faith would make easy to swallow.
I totally agree that allowing such awful evil is impossible for us humans to ever understand or rationalize. And this is exactly the point I was trying to make. Just as it is impossible for young children you understand how a loving parent can act or not act in ways that THEY PERCEIVE to be devoid of love, so it must be with God. And just as we ask our kids to trust us on this, telling them that when they grow up and become parents, then they will understand why we did what we did, so, too, must we mere mortals take this leap of faith with God. The problem is our brain. Our logical brain, always looking for loopholes in possible explanations, always seeing ways the pieces of the puzzle just don't fit together. I've often thought that maybe the only way I could get past some of this stuff would be to undergo a lobotomy.
I thought Greg's advice was interesting, telling you NOT to read the Old Testament at this stage, to focus on Jesus and ignore the seemingly vengeful, angry God of the Old Testament. It's advice I think I will follow a while for myself as well.
I'm on this journey with you, Heather. Take care.
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 1/13/2004 5:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Leila quote:
I thought Greg's advice was interesting, telling you NOT to read the Old Testament at this stage,
Leila, I think your question to Dr. Boyd about what books of the bible are best to focus on at this point is great BUT I am not sure ruling out the entire Old Testament is necessary. I think people struggling through pain can find a lot of comfort in Psalm (as both Heather and I have testified) The Song of Songs is a beautiful book that demonstrates God's heart toward us the bride.
Just thought I'd shed a differing point of view to not throw the baby out with the bath water.  | | Back to Top | | |
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wondering04
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 1/13/2004 8:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Dr. Boyd,
Thanks for your message from the heart.
Doc: But Heather, the only thing that heals is TRUTH. And the truth is that God IS up close and personal. The truth is that he's madly in love with you. And the sooner you represent this vividly in your head, the sooner you'll experience the truth that God is loved and you are loved.
Heather: I know truth heals, and I really hear what you are saying. It makes me want to cry it is so compelling. I guess I can accept God's love in a generic sort of way, but in a personal way, in my wildest imaginings I can't quite get it. I pray to understand that, and in all honesty, after reading your email tried to imagine Jesus' eyes 2 inches from mine. You say it is my imaginationa and I can do it, honestly I can't. I do try very hard, but it doesn't happen for me. I will keep trying though and maybe one day will succeed.
I have often wondered where I would have been had I been walking the streets of Jerusalem at Jesus' time. I suspect I would be at the very edge of the crowd watching, and wanting, but being so afraid to approach. I don't think I would even have the courage to reach out and touch the hem of His garment.
I know that it may be inconceivable to you, but even though I know that I have been forgiven for past sins, and can pretty much believe that. I also know that I am changed tremendously from two years ago. Even to the point where I can praise God and say that I love Him, and the words don't catch at the back of my throat. But I am still working on one aspect, and that is that a part of me still has a belief (that I know intellectually is wrong) that the reason some of what happened to me as a child happened because I was so horrible that my parents had no other choice. That if they couldn't love me the way parents should love, then maybe it is beause there is something grossly unloveable about me, and that that is why God did not respond.
Yes, intellectually I realize that this is an erroneous thought, but it still interferes with my being able to think of God loving me. I suspect a lot of healing must occur before I could begin to visualize what you are suggesting. I can tell myself the words, read the scriptures that talk about GOd's love, but my flesh still is not accepting it the way I should.
I will keep trying to do what you suggest, but sometimes that makes things hard too, because when you fail then you know that there is something wrong with you that you can't do what is so simple for others.
Lately my prayer has taken the aspect of asking God to help me unlock those closed off areas so that I am no longer blocking Him. But I suspect that while the prayer goes out, another prayer simultaneously goes out cancelling the first. I used to take quite literally the words Fear God, and it took a long time to realize that was love and respect and honor, not be afraid, be very afraid. I would be so happy just to have a vision of being under his wings, like the 91st Psalm or something.
Your books, instead of pushing me away from Jesus, really do draw me more close. It has shown me that it is ok to question, to look at things, and I really am beginning to realize that God could not intervene in the way that I needed Him to intervene. I suspect as more sinks in that it will be freeing, and take away a bit of the blocks that I still have towards God.
I am curious if you had to struggle to accept God's love. If so what did you do that made things easier. For me, the steps that many take for granted are giant hurdles. It took me a long time to be able to say Father God. I used to rage when I heard those words linked together. To be able to say "I love you God" and mean it was a big obstacle. To even touch a Bible was a gigantic step, and then to read outloud without breaking into a sweat or cowering was a big step. I know that for many these are little steps or non-steps, but not so for me. I know that I have much more to do and I can tell you I will try to implement your suggestions, but it may not be as easy as you seem to think it might be.
Doc: Jesus, Paul, and everybody in Scripture tell us that the Kingdom of God will be incomparably better than this present prelude/warzone period. If you're persistently wondering if they're right or not, all their teaching will benefit you little. Resolve its true and then enter it with your full imagination.
Heather: Good point, I was really of base there!
Doc: I wouldn't search scripture for glimmers of God's love, heather. In your condition, its as likely to damage you as to help you. FOCUS ON JESUS where you find not a glimmer, but a giant SUN, not a whisper but a SHOUT. On the cross he screams THIS IS FOR YOU BECAUSE I LOVE YOU. He is the final definitive Word, Image, expression, and revelation of the one God. Everything else is a glimmer pointing to HIM (Jn. 1:1; 14:8-10; Col 1:15; Heb 1:3).
Heather: I am not so sure about the above. It is precisely because I have been looking and studying the scriptures that I have come to realize more how much God was involved in our world. It gives a glimmer of hope.
Doc: EVERYTHING[/.B] hangs on THIS. Heather... for your joy, your peace, your wholeness, your freedom, your ability to walk in total liberation from the past and as a full loving vibrant carefree human being.... CONSIDER EVERYTHING A DEMONIC DISTRACTION THAT DOES NOT LEAD YOU TO AND KEEP YOU FOCUSED ON JESUS.
ONE THING is needful. JESUS. The rest will take care of itself.
Heather: I sort of see what you are saying. But what about God and the Holy Spirit, aren't they a part of the trinity as well? I do know that I need to focus more about Jesus.
Doc. b] sorry for my extra passion here... Kind of God preaching didn't I? but for some reason, heather, I just got a bug up me to see you healed, whole, vibrant, laughing, dancing, carefree, fearless, joyful, and all of the radiant beautiful human being God wants you to be. And you CAN be.
But it all revolves around letting Christ on the cross define God before you (without remainder) and you before God (without remainder).
Heather: Thanks for caring. It really does bring tears to my eyes, I am not used to someone caring that much. Wouldn't it be nice if that kind of healing could occur? You are right, I do need to focus more on the cross.
Leila: I think questioning your faith can help solidify it, but that it can also be dangerous and depressing. I guess a couple of important variables are having mature Christian mentors you can talk with this stuff about -- something I long for, but do not have at this stage of my life. I think we also have to make sure that our questions don't get in the way of actually living the Christian life. I tend to think more than do, to talk about God more than to God -- these are things I really need to work on myself.
Heather: Actually I don't think questioning faith can help solidify it, I am actually trying to get to the point where I do not question, where there is faith. You are right I have a few good friends that I can talk with about stuff, and I do go to a Bible study that has opened up the word to me in a way that is helpful. I guess one of the most helpful things though is when I reach out to others and help out, and get the focus off of me. Most times I can do that, but there are periods of time when my past creeps up. This happens to be one of those. But I do get a feeling that it will end up helping me to sort out things.
Leila: Our logical brain, always looking for loopholes in possible explanations, always seeing ways the pieces of the puzzle just don't fit together. I've often thought that maybe the only way I could get past some of this stuff would be to undergo a lobotomy.
Heather, Boy can I relate to that! I used to think that they were stupid if in a movie an amnesiac went searching for his/her memory. I also couldn't understand Dorothy wanting to go back home, I would have stayed in OZ. I guess for me I keep trying to puzzle things out and put things together because when things are so shattered, you want to make sense of them. I am grateful that God prevented me from doing myself in, I spent years trying to end my life, and that was not permitted. Leila, I wish you well on your journey. At least we have a sounding board here.
Thanks for caring, another point someone made to me was that you see Jesus in how people treat you sometimes. I suspect there is a lot of Jesus on this site.
Heather
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wondering04
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 1/21/2004 5:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Don,
I want to thank you for your kind words. You are right about Zacchaeus, but he really wanted to meet Jesus. For me, I am not sure I would want to draw His attention.
Today in my prayers I was thinking that maybe I have used up my quota of blessings by how many sins I needed to be forgiven from. Do I really have the right to anything else, I am not certain.
I try so hard to see myself as close to Jesus, but can't, in my wildest imagination, view that. I am so afraid of approaching Him. Scared in fact. The longing is there, but the fear is greater I guess.
Have been following in the other forums the views about open theism. Kind of reminds me of the marvelous story called: Flatland, where a dot and a line try so hard to struggle and understand the concept of the third dimension, when in their two dimensional world all they can perceive of the third dimension is where it intersects at one point.
Sometimes I think that somehow there must be a way to reconcile freewill and determinism that is on a level far beyond where our rational mind can perceive. That maybe there is a way to do that that we cannot think. Often the Bible says that God uses the foolish to confound the wise. Could this not be an instance of this?
It is very discomforting to think of a God that is not in control of things on the earth, and dependent on the whims of his creation. Perhaps if that is the case, maybe God has washed his hands of the earth as incorrigable and has left completely. Come back later after we have all killed each other off.
Even the emotions of God in the Bible are scary. Could we really annoy God to such a point that he really says, forget it as he did to the Israelites in the book of Judges. That you have made your bed, now sleep in it in a manner of speaking.
Oh for simple faith. I think that got ruined in my life. Perhaps I am failing at Christianity 101.
Heather | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 1/22/2004 1:23 AM (GMT -6) | |
Mar 9:24 . . . said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/9/2004 4:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by wondering04
Dear Don,
I want to thank you for your kind words. You are right about Zacchaeus, but he really wanted to meet Jesus. For me, I am not sure I would want to draw His attention.
Today in my prayers I was thinking that maybe I have used up my quota of blessings by how many sins I needed to be forgiven from. Do I really have the right to anything else, I am not certain.
I try so hard to see myself as close to Jesus, but can't, in my wildest imagination, view that. I am so afraid of approaching Him. Scared in fact. The longing is there, but the fear is greater I guess.
Have been following in the other forums the views about open theism. Kind of reminds me of the marvelous story called: Flatland, where a dot and a line try so hard to struggle and understand the concept of the third dimension, when in their two dimensional world all they can perceive of the third dimension is where it intersects at one point.
Sometimes I think that somehow there must be a way to reconcile freewill and determinism that is on a level far beyond where our rational mind can perceive. That maybe there is a way to do that that we cannot think. Often the Bible says that God uses the foolish to confound the wise. Could this not be an instance of this?
It is very discomforting to think of a God that is not in control of things on the earth, and dependent on the whims of his creation. Perhaps if that is the case, maybe God has washed his hands of the earth as incorrigable and has left completely. Come back later after we have all killed each other off.
Even the emotions of God in the Bible are scary. Could we really annoy God to such a point that he really says, forget it as he did to the Israelites in the book of Judges. That you have made your bed, now sleep in it in a manner of speaking.
Oh for simple faith. I think that got ruined in my life. Perhaps I am failing at Christianity 101.
Heather
Dear Heather,
I really am "the new kid on the block here" but would love to encourage you as a fellow sojourner. I know that the Father loves it when we seek Him, but what He loves even more is the way we love each other. I hope that somehow I can encourage you to keep on seeking and find He becomes more amazing than anything we could imagine. Thankfully the blessings that He gives us are inexhaustable and His love beyond human comprehension. I too come from an abusive background. A little more than a year ago, a friend introduced me to the Open View and it has dramatically changed how I see the Father and how I know He sees me/us and interacts with His creation. It is a view I now embrace. I have also grown in my understanding of the urgency of prayer.
I began with God of the Possible and passed it along to several friends. I'd love to talk to you about this. I'll say a prayer for you tonight and hope that we have a chance to "meet" here.
God Bless you Heather,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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