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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Surfer Girl Says Shark Attack "God's Will" | Forum Quick Jump
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 12/2/2003 3:50 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
How many times had Bethany engaged in this high-risk behavior? Certainly God could have intervened by causing the shark to hunt in another direction, but your question begs the question that God is somehow obligated to step in each and every time a Christian acts in a negligent manner (like swimming with sharks).
I do not believe that God is somehow obligated to step in each and every time a Christian (or Jew or miscellaneous) acts in a negligent manner. I'd just like you to answer the question: Can you imagine an *earthly* father who sees that his daughter's arm is about to get bitten off by a shark, who has the opportunity to step in and absolutely ensure that the shark does not harm his daughter, but who chooses not to do so (since, after all, he had already helped her in the past when he taught her that sharks were dangerous, and, dagnabit, she's engaged in this high-risk behavior multiple times now)?
"I believe that, in the present divided state of Christendom, those who are at the heart of each division are all closer to one another than those who are at the fringes. I would even carry this beyond the borders of Christianity: how much more one has in common with a real Jew or Muslim than with a wretched liberalising, occidentalised specimen of the same categories."
(C.S. Lewis to Mary Willis Shelburne, November 10, 1952.) | | Back to Top | | |
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chestertonian
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 31
| Posted 12/2/2003 4:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya
"You killed my father; prepare to die". Superb film. | | Back to Top | | |
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rossfadeinout
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428
| Posted 12/2/2003 5:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey all,
I really don't think that you guys are really that far from being in agreement. Chris said earlier quote:
I do not believe that God is somehow obligated to step in each and every time a Christian (or Jew or miscellaneous) acts in a negligent manner. I'd just like you to answer the question: Can you imagine an *earthly* father who sees that his daughter's arm is about to get bitten off by a shark, who has the opportunity to step in and absolutely ensure that the shark does not harm his daughter, but who chooses not to do so (since, after all, he had already helped her in the past when he taught her that sharks were dangerous, and, dagnabit, she's engaged in this high-risk behavior multiple times now)?
Isn't this the position that John was espousing earlier? John and Laika want to make clear that God did not cause the pain in this girl, but he did allow it to happen as a consequence of her risky action. And Chris is stressing the point that God has a reason for allowing the pain, to teach dependence on God and obedience to God.
I just don't really see the disagreement here, but I could be missing something.
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 12/2/2003 5:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
Where did I assert that she got her arm back? Even without getting her arm back, I assert that her pain and suffering is less than that experienced by Abraham. I would find it harder to endure what God inflicted on Abraham than to endure what the surfer girl endured. How about you?
I'll let you know once God calls on me to start a chosen race, more numerous than the stars, directing me to a foreign country, promising that through my seed all the world would be blessed, and directing me to sacrifice one of my daughters, prefiguring how God gave up His only son for the world. Then I'll let you know.
I see. So you have no idea what it might have been like to be Abraham because you are not identical with Abraham. But you are also not identical with Bethany, yet you seem quite sure about how horrible her experience was and is--more sure about its horribleness than she herself seems to be.
"I believe that, in the present divided state of Christendom, those who are at the heart of each division are all closer to one another than those who are at the fringes. I would even carry this beyond the borders of Christianity: how much more one has in common with a real Jew or Muslim than with a wretched liberalising, occidentalised specimen of the same categories."
(C.S. Lewis to Mary Willis Shelburne, November 10, 1952.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 12/2/2003 6:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
quote:
Originally posted by Laika
I don't think God plans for severing limbs, call me an old romantic.
Does he plan for some people to be born blind?
No.
The way I understand it, God planned for the man in John 9 who was born blind to be born blind "that the works of God should be made manifest in him".
quote:
Unless that's one of the "good things"
James 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
I'm not disagreeing that everything that God gives us is good, but I'm not sure that that's what this scripture is saying, since saying that all A are B is not the same as saying that all B are A. (At least it wasn't the last time I taught my logic class.)
quote:
Are you redefining "good"?
I agree with what C.S. Lewis wrote about simple and complex goods. Have you read him? Do you disagree with him?
"I believe that, in the present divided state of Christendom, those who are at the heart of each division are all closer to one another than those who are at the fringes. I would even carry this beyond the borders of Christianity: how much more one has in common with a real Jew or Muslim than with a wretched liberalising, occidentalised specimen of the same categories."
(C.S. Lewis to Mary Willis Shelburne, November 10, 1952.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/2/2003 6:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
The way I understand it, God planned for the man in John 9 who was born blind to be born blind "that the works of God should be made manifest in him".
John 9:
1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
The issue was whether the blindness was the result of sin. They knew blindness was NOT part of God's plan, else they would NOT have asked the question.
They thought the man's sin or his parent's sin was the cause of the blindness. (Why did they rule out God?)
Jesus knew that the thief "comes only to steal and to kill and to destroy" and He undid the works of the "thief".
Will Bethany get her arm back soon? Is that part of the plan?
See Jesus restored the blind man's sight. Bethany lost an arm. See the difference? One is positive and additive, the other is negative and subtractive.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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