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Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/2/2003 6:25 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
If, on the other hand, you were to believe that God's will is that you experience no pain or suffering, I would have reason to doubt the correctness of your belief.

I believe I will experience pain and suffering. Which agent is responsible for that pain and suffering is what we're discussing.

If God is causing all the pain and suffering (as part of His "great plan"), doesn't that put Satan out of work?

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

chiam
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41

Posted 12/2/2003 6:46 AM (GMT -6)

It could be that this girl even though she may not know a lot about theology, may reason that it was "God's will" at least in the sense that God knew it would happen and that he had the power to stop it.

Chiam

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/2/2003 6:51 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by chiam

It could be that this girl even though she may not know a lot about theology, may reason that it was "God's will" at least in the sense that God knew it would happen and that he had the power to stop it.

So in the distant past, God knew for a fact that a shark that didn't exist yet was going to bite the arm off a girl who didn't exist yet?

That doesn't sound like observation to me, but a pre-determined plan.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Chris Grant
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151

Posted 12/2/2003 7:16 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika
The issue was whether the blindness was the result of sin.

And Jesus said that it was not the result of sin but "so that the works of God might be displayed in him." Saying that A occurred "so that" B might occur sounds to me like saying that A has a purpose.

quote:
They knew blindness was NOT part of God's plan, else they would NOT have asked the question.

"Knew" or "thought"? They were wrong about sin being the cause, why should we think they were right about other things?

quote:
They thought the man's sin or his parent's sin was the cause of the blindness. (Why did they rule out God?)

I don't have any special insight into why these people were mistaken.

quote:
Will Bethany get her arm back soon?

I doubt it, but stranger things have happenned.

quote:
Is that part of the plan?

I don't know.

quote:

See Jesus restored the blind man's sight. Bethany lost an arm. See the difference?

Yes. In fact, I see many differences. I believe that physical healing is not the only way in which the works of God can be made manifest in those who are not physically whole.

"I believe that, in the present divided state of Christendom, those who are at the heart of each division are all closer to one another than those who are at the fringes. I would even carry this beyond the borders of Christianity: how much more one has in common with a real Jew or Muslim than with a wretched liberalising, occidentalised specimen of the same categories."
(C.S. Lewis to Mary Willis Shelburne, November 10, 1952.)

Chris Grant
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151

Posted 12/2/2003 7:23 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika
If God is causing all the pain and suffering (as part of His "great plan"), doesn't that put Satan out of work?

To believe that God causes some pain and suffering is not necessarily to believe that God causes all pain and suffering. Furthermore, I think that tempting people to commit sin is enough to keep Satan fairly busy.

Chris Grant
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151

Posted 12/2/2003 7:27 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

quote:
Originally posted by chiam

It could be that this girl even though she may not know a lot about theology, may reason that it was "God's will" at least in the sense that God knew it would happen and that he had the power to stop it.

So in the distant past, God knew for a fact that a shark that didn't exist yet was going to bite the arm off a girl who didn't exist yet?

Even if we accept Open Theism and don't believe that God knew about this attack in the distant past, He still knew that it would occur in time to stop it, but He didn't.

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/2/2003 7:31 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
To believe that God causes some pain and suffering is not necessarily to believe that God causes all pain and suffering. Furthermore, I think that tempting people to commit sin is enough to keep Satan fairly busy.

So the severed limbs caused by God are good, and the other severed limbs not so good.

Does this work out with other "evils" as well? God ordained ethnic cleansing, good, "other" ethnic cleansing not so good.
God ordained rape, good, "other", garden variety rape, not so good.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Chris Grant
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151

Posted 12/2/2003 7:41 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Does this work out with other "evils" as well? God ordained ethnic cleasning, good, "other" ethnic cleasning not so good.
God ordained rape, good, "other", garden variety rape, not so good.

Sharp pieces of metal jabbed into children by Marcus Welby: good. Sharp pieces of metal jabbed into children by Nelson Muntz: bad.
Severing of limb by Florence Nightingale: good. Severing of limb by Uday Hussein: bad.
Touching of your naughty bits by your physician: good. Touching of your naughty bits by your cellmate: bad.

What a complicated world this is!

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/2/2003 7:47 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
Even if we accept Open Theism and don't believe that God knew about this attack in the distant past, He still knew that it would occur in time to stop it, but He didn't.

Maybe He tried:

Daniel 10:
12 Then he said to me, "Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words.
13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

Twentyone days, a few more than needed for a shark attack.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/2/2003 7:50 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
li>Sharp pieces of metal jabbed into children by Marcus Welby:

for no medicinal reason

quote:
good.

Sharp pieces of metal jabbed into children by Nelson Muntz: bad.
Severing of limb by Florence Nightingale

for no surgical reason

quote:
: good. Severing of limb by Uday Hussein: bad.[
]

Lopping off a limb for no reason,

priceless

.
Or was the shark a s(t)urgeon?

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Chris Grant
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151

Posted 12/2/2003 7:54 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Maybe He tried:

Daniel 10:
12 Then he said to me, "Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words.
13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

Twentyone days, a few more than needed for a shark attack.

Do many other Open Theists interpret this scripture to mean that the Lord God Omnipotent is incapable of doing things like stopping a shark attack? Dr. Boyd?

phil_five
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 29

Posted 12/2/2003 8:01 AM (GMT -6)

When I see evil or injustice, how will I know to stop it? After all, if it is God-ordained, I should just let it go, because God will use it for a greater good.
So therefore I am not going to do anything about anything.
And now that I think about it, I am going to start wreaking havoc,in the name of God of course.

Phil

Chris Grant
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151

Posted 12/2/2003 8:02 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
li>Sharp pieces of metal jabbed into children by Marcus Welby:

for no medicinal reason
quote:
good.

Sharp pieces of metal jabbed into children by Nelson Muntz: bad.
Severing of limb by Florence Nightingale

for no surgical reason
quote:
: good. Severing of limb by Uday Hussein: bad.[
]

Lopping off a limb for no reason,
priceless
.
Or was the shark a s(t)urgeon?

This brings us back to your problem with the word "gratuitous". To assert that God causes pain and suffering for a reason is not the same as to assert that God causes pain and suffering for no reason. If that tautology still hasn't clicked with you, maybe I could borrow an English-Japanese dictionary and we could try to carry on this conversation in your native language.

Chris Grant
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151

Posted 12/2/2003 8:09 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by phil_five

When I see evil or injustice, how will I know to stop it? After all, if it is God-ordained, I should just let it go, because God will use it for a greater good.

Judging by Romans 3:8, Paul apparently had people using a similar argument against him.

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/2/2003 8:12 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
This brings us back to your problem with the word "gratuitous". To assert that God causes pain and suffering for a reason is not the same as to assert that God causes pain and suffering for no reason. If that tautology still hasn't clicked with you, maybe I could borrow an English-Japanese dictionary and we could try to carry on this conversation in your native language.

What possible reason would God have for lopping off her arm?

Jesus said, 'if you've seen Me, you've seen the father'. Now we have no examples of Jesus lopping off limbs in the gospels, so what makes you think God lops limbs off? (reason or NO reason)

If A demonstrates B, and C is never seen, why do you assume C exists?

I can't see a medical reason for lopping her arm off. Can you give some moral reasons? Career direction? Sartorial reasons? (saRtorial)

If it's a "hidden" reason, what benefit is that?

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/2/2003 8:23 AM (GMT -6)

The shark biting her arm off wasn't:

1. surgery
2. vaccination
3. healing
4. career direction
5. obedience to a command

It was a shark biting her arm off. That's what I mean by "gratuitious".

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Chris Grant
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151

Posted 12/2/2003 8:24 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika
What possible reason would God have for lopping off her arm?

You seriously can't think of any possible reason? Have you read the devotional literature written by people who are not physically whole? Have you read C.S. Lewis's The Problem of Pain? What have you read?

quote:

Jesus said, 'if you've seen Me, you've seen the father'. Now we have no examples of Jesus lopping off limbs in the gospels, so what makes you think God lops limbs off? (reason or NO reason)

That's an interesting argument. I don't know of any examples of Jesus giving people leprosy in the gospels but I see examples of Jehovah doing that in the Old Testament. Should we become Manichaeans?

quote:
If it's a "hidden" reason, what benefit is that?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking how God could possibly have a reason that you can't fathom?

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/2/2003 8:27 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
quote:
If it's a "hidden" reason, what benefit is that?
I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking how God could possibly have a reason that you can't fathom?

No, I mean if the lopping off of the arm has a "hidden, mysterious, unfathomable, only God knows" reason, what benefit is that to the bitee?

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Chris Grant
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151

Posted 12/2/2003 8:28 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

The shark biting her arm off wasn't:

1. surgery
2. vaccination
3. healing
4. career direction
5. obedience to a command

It was a shark biting her arm off. That's what I mean by "gratuitious".

Maybe Japanese dictionaries define the Japanese equivalent of "gratuitous" as "that which is not done for reasons of surgery, vaccination, healing, career direction, or obedience to a command", but I don't know of any English dictionaries that define "gratuitous" that way.

Chris Grant
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151

Posted 12/2/2003 8:30 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika
No, I mean if the lopping off of the arm has a "hidden, mysterious, unfathomable, only God knows" reason, what benefit is that to the bitee?

Why should the beneficialness of an action be contingent upon us knowing the benefit?

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/2/2003 8:32 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
Have you read C.S. Lewis's The Problem of Pain? What have you read?

No. What have I read? "Genji Monogatari", "War and Peace", "The Berenstain Bears and Too Much T.V."

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

phil_five
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 29

Posted 12/2/2003 8:34 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant

quote:
Originally posted by phil_five

When I see evil or injustice, how will I know to stop it? After all, if it is God-ordained, I should just let it go, because God will use it for a greater good.
Judging by Romans 3:8, Paul apparently had people using a similar argument against him.

Isn't that at the core of your argument?

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant

quote:
Originally posted by Laika
What possible reason would God have for lopping off her arm?

[quote]Originally posted by Chris GrantYou seriously can't think of any possible reason?

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/2/2003 8:41 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
Why should the beneficialness of an action be contingent upon us knowing the benefit?

How do you know the "beneficialness" exists? Maybe God is pulling our leg.
Take an arm off, "this is good for you".
"How, Lord?"
"Won't say."
"O.K., thanks. I think."

"God, if Satan takes the other arm off, how will I know it's not You?"
"See my child, that's the beauty of it."

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/2/2003 8:44 AM (GMT -6)

God takes away one of your arms, no reason given -- good.
Satan takes away one of your arms, no reason given -- bad.

-- Lewis Carroll

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Chris Grant
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151

Posted 12/2/2003 8:47 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika
How do you know the "beneficialness" exists? Maybe God is pulling our leg.

Maybe God's pulling our leg about a lot of things. You got me there.

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