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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Surfer Girl Says Shark Attack "God's Will" | Forum Quick Jump
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 12/2/2003 11:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Maybe He tried:
Daniel 10:
12 Then he said to me, "Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words.
13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
Twentyone days, a few more than needed for a shark attack.
Do many other Open Theists interpret this scripture to mean that the Lord God Omnipotent is incapable of doing things like stopping a shark attack? Dr. Boyd?
As an open theist, I do not by any means limit God's ability to stop a shark attack. But it seems to me that your line of argumentation is one of "all or nothing" with regard to this issue; either God directly caused it or allowed it. I see another possible option: God neither caused it nor permitted it, any more than me running out into traffic and getting run over by a Mack truck would God be responsible for. It's simply gratuitous (in the sense of no divine reason necessary for its explanation). It's simply cause and effect. Tragic yes. God's will? Doubtful.
I do have a very hard time making a dogmatic statement that this sort of thing was God's will (either perfect or permissive). Why look for any reason behind the simple fact that we live in a fallen world in which predatorial animals sometimes attack humans, and if humans are dumb enough to place themselves in danger of a shark attack, why do we have to ask, "Why did God do (or permit) this?"
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 12/2/2003 11:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
How many times had Bethany engaged in this high-risk behavior? Certainly God could have intervened by causing the shark to hunt in another direction, but your question begs the question that God is somehow obligated to step in each and every time a Christian acts in a negligent manner (like swimming with sharks).
I do not believe that God is somehow obligated to step in each and every time a Christian (or Jew or miscellaneous) acts in a negligent manner.
Okay, then I think we agree at least on that much.
quote:
I'd just like you to answer the question: Can you imagine an *earthly* father who sees that his daughter's arm is about to get bitten off by a shark, who has the opportunity to step in and absolutely ensure that the shark does not harm his daughter, but who chooses not to do so (since, after all, he had already helped her in the past when he taught her that sharks were dangerous, and, dagnabit, she's engaged in this high-risk behavior multiple times now)?
To "absolutely ensure" assumes the very thing you deny in the first part of your response, that God is NOT obligated to intervene every time humans act irresponsibly. Thus, her arm was bitten off because she acted irresponsibly, and God gave her the ability to do so.
Miracles (like God stopping the mouths of lions or sharks) are the exception to the rule, not the rule. If miraculous intervention were the constant rule in the physical world, then no physical laws would obtain at all, and a mass of contradictory states of existence would be the result.
The reason God the Father chose not to intervene in this particular instance could be manifold, but frankly, if I were in her situation I would have no one to blame but myself as the sole cause of my predicament. The shark was just doing what comes naturally to it.
God designed a world with inherent risk involved.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/2/2003 11:33 AM (GMT -6) | | When I posted that this girl may have meant that it was "God's will" in the classical Arminian way of acknowledging that at bare minimum God knew it would happen and that he has the power to stop it. This in no way denies human responsibility. It seems that in the process to untie the Gordian knot some are willing to deny the historical belief in the complete foreknowledge of God. This finite human being is willing to live with the tension of the out-working of God and the responsiblity of man. I want to continue to learn more about our infinite God without stripping him of his attributes.
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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streetpreacher
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 12/2/2003 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Okay, let's try this once again: Can you imagine an *earthly* father who sees that his daughter's arm is about to get bitten off by a shark, who has the opportunity to step in and absolutely ensure that the shark does not harm his daughter, but who chooses not to do so (since, after all, he had already helped her in the past when he taught her that sharks were dangerous)?
Okay, let's try this one: Can you imagine an *earthly* father who sees that his daughter is about to shoot herself, who has the opportunity to step in and absolutely ensure that the gun does not harm his daughter, but who chooses not to do so (since, after all, he had already helped her in the past when he taught her that loaded guns were dangerous)?
It seems that you are equating "child of God" with a human child. It's kind of like the Calvinist attempt to compare to "dead in sins" to physical death. A physical child has limited capacity to make wise choices. An adult doesn't have this excuse. Apparently, people can't be trusted to have minds of their own not to do dangerous things. God should just make the bullets disappear. God should just make all the sharks swim away while His children swim around in dangerous waters. God should just make the consequences of sin go away, while His children engage in risky and dangerous behaviors. Do you want a God or a Divine Babysitter?
Today Lucifer is probably surveying the church just as Bonaparte did China. One can almost behold the fear in his eyes as he thinks of the Church's unmeasured potential and growls, "Let the Church sleep! If she wakes, she will shake the world." Is not the Church the sleeping giant of today?.... - Leonard Ravenhill | | Back to Top | | |
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 12/2/2003 12:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
But it seems to me that your line of argumentation is one of "all or nothing" with regard to this issue; either God directly caused it or allowed it. I see another possible option: God neither caused it nor permitted it, any more than me running out into traffic and getting run over by a Mack truck would God be responsible for.
I would say that in this hypothetical situation God did allow you to be hit by the truck, but I would not necessarily say he is responsible for it.
quote:
Tragic yes. God's will? Doubtful.
I don't disagree with that, and I don't disagree with the contention that it is doubtful that Bethany's loss of limb was God's will (or at the very least that it is unhelpful to view it as God's will). What I disagree with is the proposition that the very idea that Bethany's loss of limb could be God's will is absurd.
quote:
Why look for any reason behind the simple fact that we live in a fallen world in which predatorial animals sometimes attack humans, and if humans are dumb enough to place themselves in danger of a shark attack, why do we have to ask, "Why did God do (or permit) this?"
Maybe we should ask Bethany why people look for such reasons. Maybe the lesson "God wants me to be challenged so that I can grow closer to him and grow to be more like him" is easier for her to swallow than the lesson "All surfers are idiots."
"I believe that, in the present divided state of Christendom, those who are at the heart of each division are all closer to one another than those who are at the fringes. I would even carry this beyond the borders of Christianity: how much more one has in common with a real Jew or Muslim than with a wretched liberalising, occidentalised specimen of the same categories."
(C.S. Lewis to Mary Willis Shelburne, November 10, 1952.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 12/2/2003 12:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It seems that you are equating "child of God" with a human child.
Someone else started the analogies between earthly fathers and Heavenly Father. I just joined in.
quote:
A physical child has limited capacity to make wise choices. An adult doesn't have this excuse.
First, 13-year old Bethany is not an adult in the eyes of the law. Is she in the eyes of God? Secondly, I dispute the assertion that adults do not have limited capacity to make wise choices.
quote:
Do you want a God or a Divine Babysitter?
I want a "grandfather in heaven -- a senile benevolence who, as they say, 'liked to see young people enjoying themselves' and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, 'a good time was had by all'" (C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain) Well, actually, I don't.
"I believe that, in the present divided state of Christendom, those who are at the heart of each division are all closer to one another than those who are at the fringes. I would even carry this beyond the borders of Christianity: how much more one has in common with a real Jew or Muslim than with a wretched liberalising, occidentalised specimen of the same categories."
(C.S. Lewis to Mary Willis Shelburne, November 10, 1952.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 12/2/2003 1:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant
I'd just like you to answer the question: Can you imagine an *earthly* father who sees that his daughter's arm is about to get bitten off by a shark, who has the opportunity to step in and absolutely ensure that the shark does not harm his daughter, but who chooses not to do so (since, after all, he had already helped her in the past when he taught her that sharks were dangerous, and, dagnabit, she's engaged in this high-risk behavior multiple times now)?
To "absolutely ensure" assumes the very thing you deny in the first part of your response, that God is NOT obligated to intervene every time humans act irresponsibly.
I don't follow you. The question is a question, the answer to which might shed some light on the current discussion. The question makes no assumptions about God's obligations. Indeed, it could be asked or answered by people who don't even believe in God, let alone have some preconceived notion about what His obligations are.
"I believe that, in the present divided state of Christendom, those who are at the heart of each division are all closer to one another than those who are at the fringes. I would even carry this beyond the borders of Christianity: how much more one has in common with a real Jew or Muslim than with a wretched liberalising, occidentalised specimen of the same categories."
(C.S. Lewis to Mary Willis Shelburne, November 10, 1952.) | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/3/2003 3:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Chris Grant, you quoted Lewis in your post, but have you also read the line in Mere Christianity-- "Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow." ?
Chiam | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/3/2003 4:14 AM (GMT -6) | | For John Earp-- you were wanting some Scripture, all of which I'm sure you have heard before:
Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place; as for the former events, declare what they were, that we may consider them and know their outcome. Or announce to us what is coming; declare the things that are going to come afterward, that we may know that you are gods; indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together (Isa 41:22-23).
"I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven images. Behold, the former things have come to pass, now I declare new things; before they spring forth I proclaim them to you" (Isa 42:8-9).
'And who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; yes, let him recount it to Me in order, from the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming and the events that are going to take place. Do not tremble and do not be afraid; have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none' (Isa 44:7-8).
"Declare and set forth your case; indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me" (Isa 45:21).
"Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure"' (Isa 46:9-10).
"I declared the former things long ago and they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass. Because I know that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew, and your forehead bronze, therefore I declared them to you long ago, so that you would not say, 'My idol has done them, and my graven image and my molten image have commanded them . . . (Isa 48:3-5).
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/3/2003 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | If I may interject a general thought to the proceedings, it seems to me that when we discuss God being a father we have the tendency to act as we would, that is as if this one child is the only child God is responsible for, and as if Gods actions would not effect the rest of the world, but only this one incident. Such, of course, is not the case.
Given that God has set up the world to work a certain way, with certain causes and effects, I think he will always hesitate before overruling the system he set up, even a system hurt by sin. It seems to me that in looking at the overall picture there would be many precedents set up if God overruled his own system simply to save a girl from being bitten by a shark. I would like to see these discussed. For instance, would other parents subconsciously think that perhaps they would not have to watch over their children as much, knowing that God may intervene? That is just one of the possibilities. Are there others?
I would also add this: we are all God's children, of course, mine included, but in terms of responsibility, I view my children as my children first, God's second, simply because I see my children as given to me by God, to parent as I see fit and to take care of as I see fit. Therefore, God has given them to me as my responsibility. If a child of mine were bit by a shark, I do not view it as God not stepping in, but me not being aware enough to watch over my child. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/3/2003 11:00 AM (GMT -6) | | | I see the passage in Isaih being about having the power to bring about what is spoken not about knowing the future. I see nothing in the passage about knowledge of the future. But that is just me... | | Back to Top | | |
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