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GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/6/2003 4:24 AM (GMT -6)

Tigress: You know what? The more I think about this, the more I figure this wasn't God's will or the fault of the girl or Satan. It was the shark's will.

Doc: BINGO. FINALLY someone gives some credit to the Shark!

Few comments:
* Laika, I adore your humor. (The Holy Grail "Lord Chastises Those Whom He Loveth" had me laughing for three pages!)
* I'm kidding about the Shark's will.
* I don't see what the Open View has to do with answering the question as to where the Shark bite was God's will or not. WHENEVER God knew it was going to happen, he STILL didn't stop it. It makes no difference if it was twenty seconds for twenty million years.
* I don't think you can or should blame the surfer either -- unless there had already been shark sightings or something. Statistically surfing isn't a particularly dangerous activity. The slight risk one takes is outweighed by the joys -- which is how we live every day of our life, if we're healthy people.
* In my opinion, we need to talk about
a) how the fall and the subsequent satanic oppression of the earth has affect nature. Rather than talk about a particular shark's will, we perhaps need to talk about shark's AS A SPECIES. Are they now exactly as God created them to be? Might Lewis (yes LEWIS) be right in thinking that the animal kingdom has become to some degree (and in some species more than others) corrupted?
b) the necessary stability of the laws of nature for it to serve as the environement for free agents to relate and love.

Just tossing the ball out. Eyebrow

Doc

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 12/9/2003 10:07 AM (GMT -6)

I don't think God ever intended any of his creatures to kill and/or eat each other. Before the Fall, all the creatures ate of the Earth's vegetation, right? It was only after the Fall that God allowed Adam and Eve to slaughter the animals for food and clothes as well as for sacrifices. Blood sacrifice as a symbol of Christ's blood wasn't needed before the Fall into sin.

And we see in the Bible that after Christ's return, all God's creatures will be able to live in peace again, i.e. the lion lying with the lamb, etc. So, it stands to reason that all the carnivorous animals are compensating for the lack of nutrients in the Earth's vegetation. Before the Fall, the Earth's vegetation was perfectly good enough to fulfill all dietary needs. But, in this Fallen state, it's not enough for most animals.

I think that the shark can't help what it does because it has adapted its life to the world around it. All animals run on instinct. That's what separates humans from animals. If this world wasn't Fallen, that girl wouldn't have been attacked. Some things just happen because of the way things work. So, that lets both Satan and the girl off the hook. But, God still could have prevented the shark from attacking her, so why didn't He? That's the real question.

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/9/2003 3:12 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
But, God still could have prevented the shark from attacking her, so why didn't He? That's the real question.

Should God jump in everytime we get in trouble and rescue us?

If you have children AND you want them to become mature, responsible adults, able to solve their own problems, should you ALWAYS jump in and solve their problems for them? Would they ever become self-sufficient?

Look at Satan's challenge to God concerning Job:

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."

Satan says we only choose to love God when He's a celestial Santa Claus. When He isn't being Santa Claus to us, then we would curse God. We only love Him for expediency sake as Forster said.

I think God wants to prove to Satan that humans can choose to love God in ALL circumstances, for richer or poorer, in sickness and health. If God jumps in every time to rescue us, then Satan's accusation "does Job fear God for nothing?" is valid.

So here's the reality and the choice. Evil and bad things exist, wishing them away won't make them go away. Your choice:

1. God causes it all, evil and good. He can work the evil into good.
2. God gives good, evil comes from others. He can take the evil others have made and turn it into good.

That's your choice. One is not similar to the other, they are diametrically opposed. (God authors evil, God does NOT author evil)

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 12/11/2003 5:57 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
But, God still could have prevented the shark from attacking her, so why didn't He? That's the real question.

Should God jump in everytime we get in trouble and rescue us?

If you have children AND you want them to become mature, responsible adults, able to solve their own problems, should you ALWAYS jump in and solve their problems for them? Would they ever become self-sufficient?

Look at Satan's challenge to God concerning Job:

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."

Satan says we only choose to love God when He's a celestial Santa Claus. When He isn't being Santa Claus to us, then we would curse God. We only love Him for expediency sake as Forster said.

I think God wants to prove to Satan that humans can choose to love God in ALL circumstances, for richer or poorer, in sickness and health. If God jumps in every time to rescue us, then Satan's accusation "does Job fear God for nothing?" is valid.

So here's the reality and the choice. Evil and bad things exist, wishing them away won't make them go away. Your choice:

1. God causes it all, evil and good. He can work the evil into good.
2. God gives good, evil comes from others. He can take the evil others have made and turn it into good.

That's your choice. One is not similar to the other, they are diametrically opposed. (God authors evil, God does NOT author evil)

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you that God shouldn't be expected to jump in every time one of us is going to get hurt. And I agree that we should not love God simply and only for what He can do for us. That's what I'm always saying in my Bible study group, when this type of subject comes up. But for argument's sake, what would have been so bad about God jumping in to save this girl if it wasn't the result of her poor choices, but simply the result of circumstances, (the hungry shark being in the right place at the right time)?

If a parent sees their child on the sidewalk and a car swerving toward him the parent naturally would go and try to push or pull the child out of the way of the oncoming car. In this instance it wasn't the child's fault at all, because he was obeying his parent by staying on the sidewalk. So also if the girl was innocently taking a swim in waters that she didn't realize might have shark activity, why didn't God save her like any good parent would try to do? And why shouldn't He be expected to do that each time? Isn't that a parent's job? Heck, Jesus said to give up your own life to save another's, so why doesn't that apply to God in these type of circumstances?

It's not like she had to learn any kind of lesson from this attack if it wasn't her fault. So, why is it necessary for her own spiritual growth to maturity to have to go through with this tragedy? We wouldn't stand back and let the child get hit by the car for his own personal or spiritual growth.

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

nofuture
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 11

Posted 12/12/2003 5:57 AM (GMT -6)

[quote]
Tigress said:
If a parent sees their child on the sidewalk and a car swerving toward him the parent naturally would go and try to push or pull the child out of the way of the oncoming car. In this instance it wasn't the child's fault at all, because he was obeying his parent by staying on the sidewalk. So also if the girl was innocently taking a swim in waters that she didn't realize might have shark activity, why didn't God save her like any good parent would try to do? And why shouldn't He be expected to do that each time? Isn't that a parent's job? Heck, Jesus said to give up your own life to save another's, so why doesn't that apply to God in these type of circumstances?

It's not like she had to learn any kind of lesson from this attack if it wasn't her fault. So, why is it necessary for her own spiritual growth to maturity to have to go through with this tragedy? We wouldn't stand back and let the child get hit by the car for his own personal or spiritual growth.
[quote]

Tigress,
I would like to first say that I often wrestle with these type of questions myself. I wonder why God doesn't prevent harm, while at the same time He would find fault with me if I didn't do what I could to help someone (a neighbor) in need. Perhaps the bottom line is that we are being the ones tested, not God. Our faith is tested daily, both in good times and bad. He wants to see if we'll trust Him in the midst of suffering. After all, we know this life is just temporary, and that He promises we will one day be rewarded according to how we've lived our lives. So we are urged in numerous portions of Scripture to be patient, enduring trials and sufferings, while we await His return or our own death before that day. It doesn't seem fair at the moment, but we can surely look forward to the Lord making up for all we suffer in due time.

James 5:10 For examples of patience in suffering, dear brothers and sisters, look at the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11We give great honor to those who endure under suffering. Job is an example of a man who endured patiently. From his experience we see how the Lord's plan finally ended in good, for he is full of tenderness and mercy.

Romans 8:18 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. 19For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. 20Against its will, everything on earth was subjected to God's curse. 21All creation anticipates the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. 22For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23And even we Christians, although we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, also groan to be released from pain and suffering. We, too, wait anxiously for that day when God will give us our full rights as his children,[10] including the new bodies he has promised us.

Perhaps you'll find these verses helpful...that girl may have lost her arm, but her faith in the midst of her trial is definitely bearing lots of fruit, both now and forever.

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 12/12/2003 6:40 AM (GMT -6)

Nofuture,
Maybe that girl's experience is bearing lots of good fruit in her life in some ways, but her saying that her arm getting bitten off was God's will, is damaging to the Gospel testimony and how people might view God. I've known plently of non-Christians who would say that they wouldn't want anything to do with a God who would do something like that to his child.

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

nofuture
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 11

Posted 12/12/2003 7:00 AM (GMT -6)

Tigress,

I agree with you there. I'd be terrified of a God who'd send sharks to devour my children. However, there are people who don't appreciate a God who "allows" shark attacks either. I don't particularly "like" it, but I'm not going to reject God because of it. Life can certainly bring along some awful trials and difficulties...

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 12/12/2003 9:08 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Tigress

Nofuture,
Maybe that girl's experience is bearing lots of good fruit in her life in some ways, but her saying that her arm getting bitten off was God's will, is damaging to the Gospel testimony and how people might view God. I've known plently of non-Christians who would say that they wouldn't want anything to do with a God who would do something like that to his child.

Maybe I didn't phrase that correctly. I meant that many non-Christians would not want to know a God who would ALLOW His child to get attacked and maimed or killed by a shark.

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

Daniel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1

Posted 1/12/2004 8:59 AM (GMT -6)

For all you who think it was irresponsible for Bethany Hamilton's father to let her surf even with the threat of sharks, go watch "Finding Nemo".

For all you who think that it's dumb for Bethany to think the shark attack was God's will, here's a verse straight from the Bible for ya: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." God didn't tell the shark to go bite her arm off, but he did create sharks to hunt and that's all it was doing. But God will take that bad thing and use it for good things, like helping Bethany trust in him more, or bring her into a closer relationship with her dad.

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 1/12/2004 11:24 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Daniel
For all you who think that it's dumb for Bethany to think the shark attack was God's will, here's a verse straight from the Bible for ya: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."

That verse shows that God can even take events that weren't His will and bring good out of the bad situation. That verse doesn't prove the shark biting her arm off was His will.

James 1:17 "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."

We just happen to believe sharks biting people's arms off is the work of Satan and not God.

If you say:
1. God caused the shark attack, it was His will.
2. God can bring good out of it.

That doesn't make sense. What God does is good, so you'd have to conclude that God causing the shark attack is good and He can bring good out of it. What's remarkable or comforting about this?

But if you say:
1. Satan caused the shark attack, it was NOT God's will.
2. God can bring good out of it.

That makes sense. The shark attack is NOT good. Yet God can bring good out of it. Don't you think the second set makes more sense?

Hey, welcome to this site.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 2/8/2004 7:53 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by John Earp

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Grant

quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Actually, yes, I can imagine a different scenario in this case - Cause and effect. If you play with fire (or swim with sharks) chances are you might get burned (or your arm bitten off). God allows people to do stupid things like try to run on the freeway or get drunk and drive or swim with sharks.
But can you imagine an *earthly* father who sees that his daughter's arm is about to get bitten off by a shark, but chooses not to do anything to prevent it?

It seems to me that God did plenty to prevent this. He gave the young girl a mind with the ability to know without question that swimming with sharks was quite hazardous. She obviously chose to disregard that knowledge, and must have thought the risk was worth the thrill of surfing. Kind of like when a teenage girl has sex with her boyfriend and then prays that she isn't pregnant. Kind of like if a person takes drugs, has long-term physical and psychological complications as a result, and then can't understand why God "let" this happen to them. Duh. (Not saying "duh" to you, Chris, but to the drug user).

If one jumps off a skyscraper, should one expect God to prevent them from splatting all over the pavement? Satan tried to tempt Jesus to jump from the pinnacle of the Temple, and Jesus said, "thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

John,
I am the greenhorn on the block here, so I may be jumping into unchartered waters (hopefully no sharks). Scanning this ongoing conversation I would like to echo my agreement with you on this one. I do not believe that it is God's design that anyone suffer like this and I do believe that He does everything He can to prevent suffering of this kind. I also believe in the urgency of prayer - that the Father responds to prayer. But beyond that I believe, as Boyd reminds us, in the complexity of creation and the arbitratiness of life. Suffering is not in keeping with God's orginal plan for us. Suffering is not about the character or will or God, but about the complexity of creation and about the free will of humans and other agents. I can't believe that the Father wanted nothing more than to prevent this shark attack and at times He miraculously intervenes. At other times He doesn't. I think the real dilemna is attempting to explain suffering in terms of a divine purpose in all situations. What we can be sure of is His unfailing, passionate love and that He will do all He can do to intervene and all He can do to bring good out of any and everything circumstance that we find ourselves in. I have no doubt as well that we learn from suffering (not that He "allows" suffering for that purpose and that, if we allow ourselves to trust Him in the middle of it and draw close to Him, that He will draw close to us. We have the promise of His presence.

Peter Kreeft in "Heaven" asks these questions: 1. "What can I know?"
2. "What should I do?" 3. "What may I hope?" My answer: 1. His love for me is unfailing and if I draw close to Him (especially in times of suffering) that He will draw close to me 2. Keep drawing close to Him and 3. What I hope for is that as I draw close to Him and He draws close to me - that I will affect eternity - that others will see Jesus - especially in times of suffering, and know that His love and presence will never fail them.

Thanks for letting me jump in here
Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 2/8/2004 8:10 PM (GMT -6)

Hi Jo-Anne. Thanks for your comments, and welcome!

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

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