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Wislawa
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 8/18/2001 10:04 AM (GMT -6) |   | I would like to call into question something that most of us Evangelicals have taken for granted without even thinking to look if it is really taught in scripture. Does the Bible really teach chastity (as in no sex prior to marriage) as the sexual ethic we are to follow?
Here is why I’m questioning this. Lately my favorite book of the Bible has been the Song of Songs (romantic fool that I am) and I have come to believe that the two young lovers in this text are NOT married. I’ve unfortunately heard and read ridiculous attempts by Evangelicals to try to show that they MUST be married. But in the end we are supplying the must to the text. WE are the ones who need them to be married so we abuse the text to fit our pre-existent conclusion that chastity is God’s sexual ethic. Check this out:
quote:
Within Canticles sexual intercourse does not consummate marriage. Rather, marriage will consummate sex: the lovers are already enjoying sexual pleasures, but they want public acceptance of their union in marriage as well…While the Song does not assume that marriage is the prerequisite for sexual relations, it does not seem to be deliberately defying strictures on premarital sex. Rather, it accepts sexuality with a naturalness matching its delicacy…The lovers show no embarrassment, make no apology, express no defiance. They do not relish sex as a forbidden fruit, just as they do not eschew it as a sin.
–Michael V. Fox The Song of Songs and the Ancient Egyptian Love Songs. (Madison: University of Wisconsin, 1985), 313-14.
THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT THERE IS NO SEXUAL ETHIC IN GODS ECONOMY, RATHER IT IS TO ASK, “IF NOT CHASTITY…WHAT?”
quote:
The song does assume a sexual ethic, but the sexual virtue cherished is not chastity. It is fidelity: unquestioned devotion to one’s lover…
–Michael V. Fox The Song of Songs and the Ancient Egyptian Love Songs. (Madison: University of Wisconsin, 1985), 315.
So here is my question. There are many places in the Bible that talk about correct sexual relationships. Do any of them require that we adopt a sexual ethic BEYOND that of fidelity?
And more practically, if not, does this authorize sex before marriage as long as those involved are faithful? If so sex itself becomes a covenant act, one in which the persons involved basically enter into a binding relationship as strong as marriage itself. Once you start, you’d better well make sure you’ve found the right person!!!
Or maybe this is all a bunch of hoey (once again how do you spell this? Say: who-e)
-Wislawa
for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].
Canticles 8:6
Edited by - Wislawa on 08/18/2001 3:12:48 PM
Edited by - Wislawa on 08/18/2001 3:13:35 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 8/19/2001 1:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Wislawa asked
quote:
Or maybe this is all a bunch of hoey (once again how do you spell this? Say: who-e)
It's spelled like this: hooey
At least, in Indiana it is spelled this way  .
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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Wislawa
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 8/19/2001 11:13 PM (GMT -6) | | No one has come up with any scriptual passages that require a sexual ethic beyond chasity yet, and I don't mean to rush anyone, but I leave in a week!!!
Sould I take the absense of responses so far as fear of touching the issue?
Or should I take it as a green light for a Godly fling with a cute Polish girl?
-Wislawa
for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].
Canticles 8:6
Edited by - Wislawa on 08/20/2001 04:16:05 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 8/20/2001 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
...but I leave in a week!!!
I think this speaks to the fidelity part of things.
Maybe a nice goodbye kiss, then a few minutes by yourself. I think maybe we determined that wasn't sinful in an earlier thread.
don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? " | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 8/20/2001 8:49 AM (GMT -6) | | I think you answered your question yourself. You said:
quote:
So here is my question. There are many places in the Bible that talk about correct sexual relationships. Do any of them require that we adopt a sexual ethic BEYOND that of fidelity?
and
quote:
And more practically, if not, does this authorize sex before marriage as long as those involved are faithful?
How can you POSSIBLY be faithful to some polish girl you're (supposedly) leaving in a few days? Hmmmm.... I think this situation is more hypothetical than you're presenting it as, you think? 
*************************
When we can reach beyond our fears to the One who loves us with a love that was there before we were born and will be there after we die, then oppression, persecution, and even death will be unable to take our freedom.
Henri Nouwen | | Back to Top | | |
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Wislawa
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 8/20/2001 9:02 AM (GMT -6) | | whasssuuuppp, oh ye of little faith.
I take fidelity to mean faitfulness to one person and no one else. I can do this long-distance as well as anywhere else aided by my trusty birth control. Just because its a fling doesn't mean its unfaithfull, it just means I'll have to limit myself to one fling per lifetime. She's pretty much the only person who can get beyond my birth control due to her eye problems, and she isn't emotionally invested at all so i'm not really worried about any broken hearts. But maybe your right, i might regrete using my one fling so early on in life.
-Wislawa
for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].
Canticles 8:6
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 8/20/2001 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
And more practically, if not, does this authorize sex before marriage as long as those involved are faithful? If so sex itself becomes a covenant act, one in which the persons involved basically enter into a binding relationship as strong as marriage itself. Once you start, you’d better well make sure you’ve found the right person!!!
I'm a bit of an anarchist, sex is the covenant act. A piece of paper or fancy ceremony doesn't a marriage make. ( don't tell my daughter I said that :) )
Getting saved wasn't done by signing a church membership card. "Getting married" won't make you married either.
don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? " | | Back to Top | | |
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Wislawa
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 8/20/2001 10:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Wow don you surprised me.
-Wislawa
for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].
Canticles 8:6
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/20/2001 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Don--if you are open to hear disagreement with this...". "Getting married" won't make you married either."
Maybe there is a sense in which this could be true. I'm told that in the Orthodox church it is IMPOSSIBLE for even the Emperor to marry against his/her free will. And the Emperor may not (in the church) marry anyone against their free will. The question is asked!!! THAT is becasue of the nature of marriage.
Here is something from the writer of the major Liturgy, John Crystostom, who wrote of marriage:
___"And indeed from the beginning God appears
___to have made special provision for this union;
___and discoursing about the two as one,
___He said this, 'Male and female created He them' (Gen. 1:27)
___
___For there is no relationship between man and man
___so close as that between man and wife,
___if they be joined together as they should be . . .
___For there is a certain love deeply seated in our nature,
___which imperceptibly to ourselves
___knits together these bodies of ours.
___Thus even from the very beginning woman sprang from man,
___and afterwards from man and woman sprang both man and woman.
___
___Do you perceive the close bond and connection? . . .
___Thus, (God) framed the whole from one beginning,
___gathering all together, like stone in a building, into one.
___.. For there is nothing which so welds our life together
___as the love of man and wife."
___
AND SEE THIS....
The Orthodox marriage ceremony has three (3) pledges instead of the two my wife and I had in our Protestant church. WHO IS THE THIRD?
"Do you ____ take ____ to be your _____".
Here is the third:
"...do You Yourself, O Sovereign Lord,
stretch forth your hand from your holy dwelling place,
and join together this Your servant (name)
and this Your servant (name),
for by You is a wife joined to a husband.
NOT TO BE TAKEN LIGHTLY.
PotOnWheel
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Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 8/20/2001 12:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Wislawa,
I can't believe nobody mentioned the F word yet.  It's Fornication.
Fornication is sex between unmarried men and women.
Here are a few references containing the word from Stongs Exh. Concordance (I think it corresponds to the King James version)
pollutions of idols, and from from F Acts 15:20
from things strangled, and from F Acts 15:29
that there is F among you 1 Cor 5:1
Such F as is not so much as named 1 Cor. 5:1
Flee F Every sin that 1 Cor. 6:18
but he that committeth F sinneth 1 Cor 6:18
Nevertheless, to avoid F, let 1 Cor. 7:2
Neither let us commit F, as some 1 Cor. 10:8
repented of the uncleaneness and F 2 Cor. 12:21
that ye should abstain from F 1 Th. 4:3
giving themselves over to F Jude 7
thoughts, murders, adlturies, F Mk. 7:21
In the past THREE years, I have had THREE 19 year olds ask me what fornication is.
Fornication is connected to immorality and unfaithfulness. Sorry to be the one to bear the bad news.
Personally I believe that when we are virgins and make love with someone it creates a spiritual bond. God always was big on covenants and it seems making love is a covenant physically and spiritually.
As far as virgins go in times of trouble it is best that they not marry. If they do marry they have trouble anyway.
(paraphrase of 1Cor. 7:25)
springs
"Rat,' he found breath to whisper, shaking, 'Are you afraid?' 'Afraid?' murmured the Rat, his eyes shining with unutterable love. 'Afraid? of Him? O, never, never. And yet - and yet - O Mole, I am afraid." (The wind in the Willows.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Wislawa
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 8/20/2001 12:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Woaha Springs coming out with the F word!
okay so fornification is bad, got it. the bible says that. But where do we get the idea that fornification is a pre-marital thing and not an infadility thing? does the bible supply that definition or do we?
-Wislawa
for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].
Canticles 8:6
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/20/2001 6:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Read your OWN quote, Wislawa, my hemisphere-hopp'n man! quote:
for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].
Canticles 8:6
It says "love is strong as death." Only ONE love is that strong. Its not feeling "hot." And the Canticles are correct, the enemy is death. And its rule is strong.
It was called to my attention the cycle (potentially, without the Spirit) of sin, then death, then sin, then death, then sin.... "This day you shall surely die," not "you will surely die that day" was the line from Genesis. (Correct me if I'm off.) Ever since our flesh is a cause of much potential sin. Young babes make old men feel further from death. Reputation makes one feel less temporary, mortal. True, the NIV is wrong in translating (I repeat this from someone else; I only read English and German.) a verse as "sinful nature" as that nature was created "good." BUT our flesh is still what makes us do what we know and don't want to do, at times. The PASSIONS are a big deal, Wislawa. They too are not "bad"--part of our nature, created good. But, but, BUT...we can let them rule us from their failing castle, our mortal bodies, or we can submit them to Christ as a spiritual sacrifice. Now, I ONLY read the guys who speak of passions as being potentially good. Lust....after God is good. Hate.....of evil. Etc, etc, ETC. So, Wislawa....flee! Don't submit to anything that is not of the Spirit. People can make a text say anything their passions, at the moment, want their mind to think. Anything. But the life with head and heart both toward God is peace. Never would the Spirit instruct something against God's will. Don't play with this one. Fireworks-passions controllable without being submitted to Christ----only after you are dead. Be real. And don't lead any young kid to experiment with his relationship with Christ. You don't want to have that one hanging on you either.
Soberly,
PotOnWheel
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 8/21/2001 2:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Don--if you are open to hear disagreement with this...". "Getting married" won't make you married either."
Quite often the words " what the Lord has joined together..." are used in the marriage ceremony. I hold marriage to a higher standard than can be expressed in the giving and receiving of vows in a public ceremony or civil court. Although I can't articulate it with a fancy arguement, I believe the sex act produces a spiritual bond between the partners. That's one of the reasons God is so down on fornication. Sex outside of a committed relationship, public ceremony or not, messes with this bond .
potonwheel, the third part you mention is the really inportant part. I just don't think ceremony imparts that joining.
I'm not dogmatic about this thing with ceremony... some hold to doing this way, some that way, some even think my way is ok.
quote:
5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
peace, love, joy from a leftover from the 60's ,
don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? " | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 8/21/2001 2:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Here comes the preacher.
Springs hit it: FORNICATION. You go girl.
In the Old Testament, as I recall, having sex before marriage was punishable by death, or by marrying the person, whichever was worse. 
In these clintoneque days, people often ask, "Well, what IS 'sex'? I've had a number of people over the years who are doing EVERYTHING (and I DO mean "ever-y-thing") but "full penetration" and rationalizing it as "not having sex". (One guy even did this but tried to argue that as long as he didn't climax, it wasn't 'sex.') Gimme a break!
If we make any attempt to abide by what Paul in his Jewish culture would have meant by fornication, and if we heed to his advice, given several times in the NT, to "FLEE from sexual immortality" (fornication) -- viz... don't get "as close as you possibly can to the forbidden line" -- I don't think we have too many questions like "can we go to first base? what about second? oral sex?
Wislawa: leave the nice polish girl ALONE. Might-be-don had the better advice. (And I don't throw kuddos his way often, cuz the dude slams me left and right. But I like him anyway )
Preacher
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Wislawa
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 8/21/2001 10:09 PM (GMT -6) | |
Doc said:
quote:
Wislawa: leave the nice polish girl ALONE.
Wislawa speaks:
I would but so far I’VE been the one doing all the resisting! And she ain’t all that nice either! She’s a dirty polish girl. You need to tell HER to leave me ALONE! (Once again this can only be explained by taking her ‘eye-condition’ into account.)
quote:
In the Old Testament, as I recall, having sex before marriage was punishable by death, or by marrying the person, whichever was worse.
Okay Mr. Preacher man, I’m gonna need you to come up with some references here. The OT is pretty big and you can claim a whole lot about it without actually pointing anything out at all.
Questions:
Are you denying that the kids in the Song of Songs were unmarried?
Are you denying that the kids in the Song of Songs were sexually active?
If not, Why weren’t they punished by death? What happened to that OT law?
Doc also said:
quote:
If we make any attempt to abide by what Paul in his Jewish culture would have meant by fornication, and if we heed to his advice, given several times in the NT, to "FLEE from sexual immortality" (fornication) -- viz... don't get "as close as you possibly can to the forbidden line" -- I don't think we have too many questions like "can we go to first base? what about second? oral sex?
Wislawa also speaks:
Doc, this is precisely what we are putting under question! When we, “abide by what Paul in his Jewish culture would have meant by fornication,” what if what they meant by fornication was infidelity? Clintonesque rationalization is trying to rationalize INFIDELITY not chastity. But I’ve got no one I’m supposed to be faithful to (yet) so this is more a matter of choosing and initiating faithfulness.
To say that the sexual ethic assumed in the Bible is one of fidelity and not chastity is not to loosen the strictness of it. An ethic of fidelity can be a VERY STRICT one with VERY SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES. What you and Springs and everyone else haven’t done yet is shown how fornication requires an ethic of chastity to make sense. When Paul said “FLEE from sexual immortality” he was not talking about fleeing from faithful pre-marital sex because that simply wasn’t immoral in his eyes. What was immoral in his eyes was breaking any sexual covenant that had already been established between two people. That is what we are to flee from. That is what all the verses about sexual ethics deal with. Can you point to one verse by Paul or anyone else about how we are and are not supposed to act sexually that doesn’t make sense if it is taken to be about fidelity? (or maybe this is hooey. I’m just trying this out to see if it flies).
Here’s some more questions for anyone:
When a legal marriage covenant is not consummated with sex is it still binding? I could be wrong about this but I think at least in a French court if a marriage hasn’t been consummated with sex it’s a piece of cake to annul because it wasn’t really final without it. Sex is like the final vows of a marriage. Or sex is like the legal signature on a marriage covenant, without it its got no legal value at all. Unconsummated marriages are null and void. Or am I wrong on this? Does anyone know what the law is in the U.S.?
Really far out side question:
With my first girlfriend (oddly enough she too had eye problems) we didn’t do anything wrong at all (except break curfew a couple of times ). But I mean we did nothing, I mean NOTHING wrong physically speaking. But I still feel like I’m cheating on her every time I go out with other girls who have eye problems. Why is this? I think it might have something to do with latent old test. covanents besides marrage which we ignore to concentrate only on marrage. There’s something about first loves which set up eternal covenants that must be either enternally enjoyed or enternally endured as Mr. C.S. Lewis said, and in most cases repeatedly broken. Can anyone else make sense of this for me?
I've been studying so much these last few days, and getting everything ready to go home, I've been sleeping such odd sceduals. I'm really really sleepy. I make bad judgement calls when i get sleepy. and here comes polish girl to give me a back rub at the computer. opps she can't see, she's giving the guy next to me a backrub. oh well that's just as well. but still so sleepy
 <----here is me being sleepy
 <----here is naughty polish girl looking cute
 <-----here is preacher Doc looking disapproving
 <----here is satan man trying to tempt me
 <----here is me blushing but standing strong!
i need a nap
-Wislawa
for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].
Canticles 8:6
Edited by - Wislawa on 08/22/2001 03:10:40 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 8/23/2001 10:37 PM (GMT -6) | | God's will for us is that we abstain from sexual immorality.
quote:
1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of LUST, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
There is no need to search for "God's will" concerning this question. GOd's will is that you abstain from sexual immorality (fornication).
The determining factor as to whether an act falls under fornication or sexual immorality seems to be whether or not there is lust involved in the act (1 Thess 4:5). For example, about two weeks ago I met the older sister of a young friend of mine when a group of Phil Joel fans met in Indianapolis to see Phil (who seems to be an open theist from my discussions with him) perform that evening at the state fair. We got along really well that whole evening and talked with each other often. I kissed that cutie near the top of her head (and she enjoyed it!) before she got into the car to go home to Michigan with her family. I do not believe that what I did could be considered fornication because there did not seem to be any lust involved. In other words, my heart attitude determined whether or not what I did was an act of sexual immorality or not. Does this make sense?
I believe that hugs can be sexually immoral if done in lust. I'm confident that there is no shortage of girls on these forums that will agree with me on that (ya feel me gals? ).
My advice to you Wislawa is that you do nothing more than give this gal a few lustless kisses before leaving. Maybe a real wet one right before you get on the plane, but you'll have to decide if you can do that without it being done in lust.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 08/24/2001 03:46:51 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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