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Pseudo-Intellectual
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 58
| Posted 7/25/2001 1:33 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Someone just told me that in the Catholic tradition there is now some official statement to the effect that people in poverty should be revered. They are not saying that poverty shouldn’t be abolished at every turn but they are saying that the common understanding of the direction of ministry should be reversed. That we should go to the poor because they minister to us not the other way around. That when we think we are serving the poor we are actually being taught by divinely inspired professors of love. The poor teach us how to love and we need to honor them for this.
What do you think about this?
More generally do you think poverty is holy or not? Is it evil or should it be desired?
dudechild
"If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?" -Art Hoppe
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Triskal
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| Posted 7/25/2001 5:46 AM (GMT -6) | | VERY good question, PI. (I hope you don't mind if I call you that, it's a bit easier than spelling it out  )
First of all, I do not believe that poverty is something that should be sought after. While a lack of material goods can certainly teach us to rely upon God for all our needs, it can just as easily make us bitter towards God and men. It can also make us jealous of others, leading us to temptation to steal. Poverty is definately not something that we want to SEEK AFTER just because God can use it to teach us something. Rather, if we ARE POOR God can take that situation--WHICH IS ALREADY THERE--and use it to teach us.
In His Grip,
Matt
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28
Edited by - Triskal on 07/25/2001 10:48:45 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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still_unsure
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| Posted 7/25/2001 6:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Matt:
If poverty isn't something we should strive for, do you think it should be considered a "fruit" of our relationship with God? What I mean is, if we are truly following Christ, His teachings and example, will we end up in poverty? I think of the many verses in scripture about "riches", "rich men", treasure" etc. and not many are pro-wealth.
Here in the Western world we tend to think of ourselves not as rich, but simply "middle-class". In Jesus' time, there was no such middle-class, poor and wealthy were very clearly demarcated. Our problem, I think, is we tend to look "up the ladder" and compare ourselves with those above us rather than those below. Anyway, here's a question- Will I have to answer to God about my new colour television and why I "allowed" people to starve rather than give them this money? This is something I think about alot.
Blessings
Rob
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Triskal
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| Posted 7/25/2001 7:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Rob,
Solomon was incredibly rich, and yet he was the wisest man in the world, and have a very good relationship with God. David was rich, he was the KING of Israel, yet he was called a man after God's own heart. There is certainly nothing wrong with being wealthy, as long as that wealth is not your primary concern in life. If your heart is aimed at God, and he is your ONLY God, then being wealthy is certainly not sinful. When Jesus told the rich man that he must give all his possesions up, he did not mean that is was wrong of him to HAVE them, but that it was wrong of him to give them first place in his life. He needed to take his trust off of them and put it in the Lord.
Now, to answer your final question. Did God put that burden on you to use that money to help the poor rather than to buy a TV? If that is the case, then use it as he has commanded you. Did God bless you with the money and give you it to use at your disposal? Then feel free to buy a TV with it, if that is your desire. I'm sure we could all think of better ways to use the money God has given us, the question is whether or not God has given us a burden to use it in those ways.
In His Grip,
Matt
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churchmouse522
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| Posted 7/25/2001 6:05 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree with Triskal. Poverty, in itself, is a neutral thing. I have had the opportunity to spend time in Haiti, and I can tell you that poverty is not God's ideal. I think the Lord was very clear that we have an obligation to care for the poor (and the widows too, but I don't see anyone striving to become a widow.)
As to the question about whether we will be judged for our material possessions, Greg has dealt with this in several sermons. We do have to carefully consider how we use the blessings God has given us, but they are still blessings to be enjoyed. Even Jesus used some of his miracle power to turn water into wine. 
Be blessed, and share the blessings with others,
Mouse
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still_unsure
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| Posted 7/26/2001 5:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Mouse and Triskal:
If a wealthy unsaved man becomes a Christian, does his wealth suddenly become something God "blessed" him with? If we, as open theists, examine the question of wealth, isn't it more likely that yours or my wealth is the result of circumstance rather than blessing? We could just as easily be in Haiti ourselves discussing this. Certainly there are Christian people there who are destitute. Why are they not "blessed" with wealth? It is my opinion from scripture that Jesus considered wealth more of a curse than blessing. Consider Luke 6:20 or Luke 16:15 or Luke 16:22-23 or Luke 12:21 or Luke 12:30-31 or Matthew 6:19-20 ofr Matthew 6:24. I remember hearing Tony Compolo speak once and he related the story of once leaving a poor country(also Haiti I think) in a small plane and a local woman running beside the plane begging him to take her baby with him so it wouldn't starve. He tells of how that experience haunts him. He also told of how the Christian church in North America holds over US$120,000,000,000 in real estate! That amount tied up in Churches! Something to consider. I am still, and I think I always will be, haunted by the story of Lazarus and the rich man. I feel I have done no more than give a few crumbs to the poor myself.
God bless
Rob
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Triskal
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| Posted 7/26/2001 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Rob,
You are correct in stating that wealth can be considered more of a curse than a blessing...when used the wrong way. For instance, let's say that I am one day walking in the woods and stumble upon a bag of money. I take the money to the police and they tell me that if no one claims it in 30 days they will then give it to me. The 30 days passes and I recieve a call from the police stating that no one has claimed the money and I am free to take it myself. After recieving the money I feel God putting it on my heart to give some of it to charity. Now, I can either a) give the money to charity, or b) refuse to and spend it for myself. If I choose B then I will find that this blessing is in reality much more of a curse, for I will have not used it the way God wanted me to. Now, I am not saying that every time you get some extra money you are supposed to give it to charity. What I am saying is that whenever God INSTRUCTS you to use it that way, then of course you should. God can bless you with money and use you to bless others with it as well. Remember the prayer of Jabez? "Lord, that you would BLESS ME, indeed..." God certainly can (and does)bless us. The question is whether or not we are going to follow his wishes regarding the blessings we recieve.
In His Grip,
Matt
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churchmouse522
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| Posted 7/26/2001 6:52 PM (GMT -6) | | still unsure,
I can understand what you're saying, and frankly in America that really is the message that needs to be heard most. Our wealth can be something that serves to weigh us down in many ways. I also understand (and agree for the most part) with what you are saying about "blessing". I don't believe at all that a good Christian will be blessed with wealth necessarily. But God does desire to bless us, and then bless the world through us. So whatever it is that God has blessed us with (wisdom, health, money) we have an obligation to use those blessings to bless others as we are able.
I still don't think you can say that poverty is a fruit of our relationship with God though. Maybe the Lord will lead you to give up everything and live in poverty. But if someone does have wealth you can't automatically assume they don't have a right relationship with God. I help run a non-profit ministry in Haiti, and I know of many wealthy people who are using their resources to further the kingdom. Our ministry has been very blessed by people who generously share their blessings with others.
I think I will always struggle with this question, and I'm glad there are others like you who struggle with it too. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Mouse
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trosie
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| Posted 7/26/2001 7:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Matt writes: "God can bless you with money and use you to bless others with it as well."
Mouse writes: "So whatever it is that God has blessed us with (wisdom, health, money) we have an obligation to use those blessings to bless others as we are able."
I say AMEN! God can bless people with more than just monetary gifts and blessings. I'm thinking of the verse which says:"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they shall see God"
To see God is to be transformed by Him. It is through our weaknesses that God can be made strong in us. What a blessing indeed to have God increase while we decrease! If it means having more of God in me,and less of me, then I want to be "poor in spirit"! The more filled up with God we become, the more we can love and serve (BLESS) others.
Blessings to you all,
trosie
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Pseudo-Intellectual
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| Posted 7/26/2001 10:27 PM (GMT -6) | | some good ol' fashioned late night readin turned this up. i thought it might be good here since we are questioning, among other things, whether wealth is a blessing or a curse (and the same for poverty)
quote:
I will tell you a story. One night a man came to our house and told me, "There is a family with eight children. They have not eaten for days." I took some food wiht me and went. When I came to that family, I saw the faces of those little children disfigured by hunger. There wwas no sorrow or sadness in their faces, just the deep pain of hunger. I gave the rice to the mother. SHe divided the rice in two,m and went out, carrying half the rice. When she came back, I asked her, "Where did you go?" She gave me this simple answer, "To my neighbors; they are hungry also!" I was not surprised tht she gave--poor people are really very generous. I was surprised that she knew they were hungry. As a rule, when we are suffering, we are so focused on ourselves, we have no time for others.
MOTHER TERESA OF CALCUTTA ("No Greater Love" Ed. Becky Beneate and Joseph Durepos. Novato: New World Library. Page 40)
d.c.
p.s. Has anyone here read "The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice"? It is a highly critical attack on Mother Teresa writen by a regular columist of "The Nation." I'm struggling to know what to make of it. Help is kindly requested!!!
dudechild
"If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?" -Art Hoppe
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Pseudo-Intellectual
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| Posted 7/26/2001 10:31 PM (GMT -6) | | P.P.S. This might be a little outta line but i've always wondered (and I was also always to afraid to ask in my theology of mission class) does anyone know why they call it the 'missionary possition?'
a shy and curious d.c.
dudechild
"If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?" -Art Hoppe
Edited by - Pseudo-Intellectual on 07/27/2001 03:33:47 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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| Posted 7/27/2001 6:32 AM (GMT -6) | | I wrote: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they shall see God"
BUT
I was wrong! I was too lazy to check out the exact wording in the bible last night before I quoted it. I quoted Matthew 5:3 -- SORRY.
The actual wording of it is: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
I made a mistake in quoting scripture and it has been bugging me. In any event, we are called BLESSED if we are "poor in spirit" because through our weakness God is our strength!
DudeChild writes: "It is a highly critical attack on Mother Teresa writen by a regular columist of "The Nation."
Too sad  Mother Teresa is an inspiration on how to live out a life devoted to serving God. Ever since I was a teenager I have had an admiration for people such as she was.
trosie
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Triskal
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| Posted 7/27/2001 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | | PI,
I have not heard of the book you speak of. However, I do recall reading an article that said something about a man who asked Mother Teresa why she does not preach salvation to those she helps. She replied that she believes that if a muslim lives a good life and does good things that he will go to heaven. That really struck me hard.
In His Grip,
Matt
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 7/28/2001 7:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Let me recommend to you Luke 6:20-28 instead:
"Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled.
Blessed ar you who weep now, for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, for surely your reward is great in heaven; for that is what their ancestors did to the the prophets.
But WOE to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.
WOE to you who who are full now, for you will be hungry.
WOE to you who are laughing now, for you will mourn and weep.
WOE to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets.
But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you."
It is no great surprise that we prefer Matthew's version of the beatitudes, it is much milder, but Luke's is probably more authentic to what Christ actually said. There is no mention here of being "poor in spirit." You are either poor or you are not. The difference is whether today, your goal is to physically survive, or if you have the leisure to do otherwise. I venture to guess that none of us are poor, in this sense. We can fight about this "line" but that is to miss the point. Neither are we hungry, perhaps some of us weep, but are we hated, excluded, reviled on account of the Son of God? Or do people generally speak well of us? So perhaps we ought to pay particular attention to the WOE section. I believe it is more likely to apply for the vast majority of Western White "middle-class" Evangelical Christians.
My guess is that the Catholic church is on the right track in saying that we have more to learn from those who truly suffer than they have to learn from us. WE have a DIVINE obligation to change their lot, for the sake of their survival no less! And they have the divine blessedness of a promise for the future. Our participation in that hangs, to some degree on our obedience to our obligation: Matt. 25:31ff
" When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will seperate people one from another as a shepherd seperates sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, 'Come you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing. I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at hisleft hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thristy or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not to the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
I have often heard Christianese nonsense about being "good" in these ways "because, who knows! you might be entertaining angels or the Lord himself!" This is a tragic error which further denigrates the poor and oppressed. We are to love our neighbors as ourselves. Christ's words mean that how you treat the poor and oppressed is how you treat Christ, not because he in some way IS the poor and oppressed, but because he SO LOVES the poor and oppressed that we make ourselves Christ's enemies when we neglect them.
In fear and trembling,
Modes.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK
Edited by - ModesofThought on 07/28/2001 12:08:47 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Triskal
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| Posted 7/28/2001 7:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Modes said, "My guess is that the Catholic church is on the right track in saying that we have more to learn from those who truly suffer than they have to learn from us. WE have a DIVINE obligation to change their lot, for the sake of their survival no less! And they have the divine blessedness of a promise for the future."
There is no special blessing stated in the beatitudes for being poor or opressed. The blessing is that in the midst of being "poor in spirit" you still are a part of "the kingdom of heaven". When the verse states that "blessed are the poor in spirit" it does not mean they are blessed BECAUSE they are poor in spirit, it means that in spite of being poor in spirit they are blessed BECAUSE "THEIRS IS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN." If there is some sort of special blessing for being poor, then heck I might as well just take all my money and possesions, throw them in a dumpster, and live on the street the rest of my life. The catholic church is way off base in stating that those who are poor have some type of special wisdom or blessing that we do not have. To say anything like that is to totally miss the entire point of the beatitudes.
In His Grip,
Matt
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28 | | Back to Top | | |
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pia†desideria
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| Posted 7/28/2001 7:58 AM (GMT -6) | | I prefer Luke’s rendering of the beatitudes because he does not spiritualize poverty like Matthew. He simply says: “Blessed are you who are poor…” (6:20).
Matt, do you also deny that wealth is a detriment to faith? Given all the negative examples of unfaithful wealthy people in the gospels (i.e. the rich young ruler, the parable of the rich fool, Lazarus and the rich man, Zaccheus, the prodigal son’s bitter older brother, the stuck-up wealthy wedding guests, the bitter workers who earned the same amount as those just hired, Judas’ miserly money-keeping and betrayal of Christ for silver coins, etc., etc., etc.), this would be a very hard case to make. Almost every single hero in Jesus’ parables happens to be dirt poor. Coincidence? Or is Jesus just as off base as the Catholic Church for portraying poor people as having a spiritual advantage over the wealthy? pia
Edited by - pia†desideria on 07/28/2001 1:47:04 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 7/28/2001 8:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Triskal, what do you do with Luke's version anyway? And what of the fact that my second extended quote (FROM Matt. no less!) supports the theory that some over-zealous scribe added "in spirit" to the "blessed are the poor" in Matt.'s account. Either way, you seem to overlook the force of my argument based upon Luke's verson and the second quote. Another problem is the "hunger and thirst for righteousness" in Matt. where Luke has simply "hunger now." I am not impressed with the hermenuetic which seeks to "spiritualize" oppression in order to get off the hook of our responsibility before God which Jesus makes clear in my second quote above, in no uncertain terms. You do see that this verse refers to potentially OPPOSITE groups of people depending upon whether it is read as "poor" or "poor in spirit"? Other words of Jesus should be instructive here to show that God's heart is truly for the poor and oppressed.
Does someone actually have the statement that started this thread? What did the Catholic Church actually go on record as saying, and in what context was it published publicly? That would be of great help to me at this point. Otherwise, I think we run the risk of putting words in the mouth of the Catholic church.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/28/2001 9:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Modes: I see that you are a "Chatecumen" now. Congratulations! What's next.
At the "Conference on Litergy and Music" (COLAM) at Wheaton this month I heard Baptism refered to in its ancient name: "Illumination."
So, are you going to be "illumened" when you hit 200 posts? And what would web-surfers think if they read that....Oh "illuminated one." (Too bad that we don't make more in our speach and conciousness of the Light of Christ.)
Congrats.
PotOnWheel
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Triskal
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| Posted 7/28/2001 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Pia,
When Jesus described his charectors as being poor, he was talking about an ATTITUDE, not a position. Do you think that the moment I went and gave up all my money I would gain some sort of spiritual superiority over those who are wealthy? Perhaps we should start figuring out who is more "blessed" by counting up all our money. In fact, let's all decide who on this board is the most "blessed" by having us all post our weekly income. Then after we have decided that, we can all look to the person for answers, considering he/she is the wisest and most revered, not to mention the one who has the largest amount of favor in God's eyes. Sound like a biblical plan?
In His Grip,
Matt
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Triskal
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| Posted 7/28/2001 6:01 PM (GMT -6) | | To whom it may concern,
I thought it might help some people here to explain exactly what it means to be "poor in spirit." The term poor in spirt can be defined as totally lacking anything spiritual, or being void of all that is spiritual. Sound like something we should desire? Maybe not.
In His Grip,
Matt
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still_unsure
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| Posted 7/29/2001 2:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Triskal:
quote:
To whom it may concern,
I thought it might help some people here to explain exactly what it means to be "poor in spirit." The term poor in spirt can be defined as totally lacking anything spiritual, or being void of all that is spiritual. Sound like something we should desire? Maybe not.
I think you may want to change your definition of "poor in spirit", considering Jesus statement that the "poor in spirit" were blessed.
Do these verses mean that poverty is a virtue? Do the poor automatically enter the kingdom? "Poor" in the biblical context has a least three meanings. It may mean those destitute enough so as to have insufficient material needs, it may refer to those who were oppressed i.e. slaves, captives, sick, general down-and-outers, or it may refer to those who are humble in spirit - those who are poor toward God. The last connotation is the one Matthew highlights in his version of the beatitudes.
Regardless, I feel there is a danger involved in the accumulation of wealth. I have often heard the teaching that "your money is yours to dispurse however you feel God is leading you to do".
However, I don't think it necessary for God to personally direct our financial paths when He has given us so many directives in scipture regarding money. Other than "the kingdom of God", no other theme appears so many times in the New Testament.
Jesus' very explicit warning was that "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God". The statement "an elephant passing through the eye of a needle" was a rabbinical expression for sheer impossibility. But, Jesus clarified this with "what is impossible with men is possible with God". We can see this in Zacchaeus' salvation . After Zacchaeus declared "half of my goods I give to the poor" Jesus proclaimed "Today salvation has come to this house". It is tempting for us to spiritualize wealth in order to justify our accumulation of it, but can you accumulate wealth without elevating it's priority above God and His commands in scripture? Please carefully consider this.
God bless
Rob
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Triskal
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| Posted 7/29/2001 2:48 AM (GMT -6) | | still_unsure,
That definition is very consistent with the greek text on that verse. It's also the definition that Dallas Willard gives in his book, "The Divine Conspiracy". You say that it couldn't be a proper definition because Jesus calls those who are poor in spirit blessed. I dealt with this in one of my previous posts. My argument is that Jesus was not calling them blessed BECAUSE they were poor in spirit, but they were blessed in spite of being poor in spirit because "theirs is the kingdom of heaven". Jesus was proclaiming that the kingdom of God was being made available to everyone, even those poor in spirit, or void of all things spiritual. In fact, that was the whole purpose of the beatitudes, to proclaim just that.
In His Grip,
Matt
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still_unsure
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| Posted 7/29/2001 4:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Triskal:
I am unfamiliar with your definition of "poor in spirit" but it must certainly be in the minority view of commentaries on Matthew.
I will quote Matthew Henry-
"Our savour here gives us eight characters of blessed people; which represent the principal graces of a Christian...
To be 'poor in spirit' is,
1. To be contentedly poor, willing to be empty of worldly wealth, if God orders that be our lot.
2. To be humble and lowly in our own eyes. to be poor in spirit is to think meanly of ourselves, of what we are, and have, and do;
3. To come off from all confidence in our own righteousness and strength, that we may depend only on the merit of Christ and the spirit and grace of Christ.
This poverty in spirit is put first among the Christian graces. The philosophers did not reckon humility among their moral virtues but Christ puts it first."
Regardless, the Lucan version of the beatitudes is surely original, as suggested by Jeremias (theology, p. 112). Matthew's gospel was formulated in a church fighting the temptation of Pharisaic self-righteousness. His emphasis on "poor in spirit" was a needed corrective.
Rob
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Triskal
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| Posted 7/29/2001 6:39 PM (GMT -6) | | The beatitudes contain much more power and influence if looked at as a message of hope for those who have the conditions listed within them. When looked at with the traditional view as being goals that we will supposedly recieve special "blessing" for, they become nothing more then impossibilites that taunt us. The definition that you give of poor in spirit does not match the greek text on the issue. What you describe it as sounds more like to KNOW you are poor in spirit, rather than to actually be poor in spirit. Just look at the words themselves, POOR in SPIRIT. The dictionary defines poor as follows...
1. Lacking in a specified resource or quality
2. Not adequate in quality; inferior
Hmm... how very interesting. Does that sound like what you want your spiritual condition to be? Lacking? Inferior? That certainly does not sound like the condition Jesus desired his followers to have in regards to the spiritual condition. He wanted them to be MIGHTY IN SPIRIT, not inferior and lacking.
In His Grip,
Matt
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 7/30/2001 7:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Triskal said:
quote:
The beatitudes contain much more power and influence if looked at as a message of hope for those who have the conditions listed within them. When looked at with the traditional view as being goals that we will supposedly recieve special "blessing" for, they become nothing more then impossibilites that taunt us.
This is precisely the point. The fact that we cannot measure up to the calling God places upon us points us towards the necessity of God's grace. Luther, who was FIRST a Bible scholar, then a theologian of sorts, was rock solid on this. The point of the sermon on the mount in its entirety, including the beautitudes, was to demonstrate that NO ONE was going to make it on their own merit. The radicalizing of the law supports this, not only is it a sin to commit adultry, now anyon who even thinks a lustful thought is done for, each sin is systematically internalized and intensified!!! WELL beyond any one's ability to claim to be pure before such a law. WHO then can be saved? Only those who come to Christ in humility and honesty before God, those who repent and are forgiven for their sins. The point is not to offer a cheerleading session about how we all should be super-Christians, rather it is to reveal our sin in such a way that no one can doubt their own guilt! Who can claim to "be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect"!!?? As Matt. 5:48, the last verse of the chapter requires of us? This is clearly how Paul understands Jesus' message from what is said in Romans 5-8.
I would be hesitant to prefer Dallas Willard over Paul and Martin Luther.
The most relevant problem remains, Triskal, that Matt. version may be read the way you suggest, but clearly Luke cannot be so read. WHAT do you do with LUKE? Brandon's notes above are important in this respect. He's always got my back!
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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