quote:

---

The Catholic church claims that they do not pray TO saints, but ask saints to pray to God FOR them. Or rather, they take their requests to God. What does everyone think about this?

---

quote:

---

I think whasssuuuppp has touched on the biggest danger in this area: if we begin to direct prayers to anyone other than the Lord we may attribute answers to those others as well.

---

here's a very open theist thougt: when someone alive does something good for us, lets say when Mother was alive and she gave someone some food, should we thank God or Mother? well of course we can and should thank both. But since we warfare folks belive that angels have free will as well and often do funky stuff should we thank them or God for what they do? angain i would say it's appropreate to do both. thirdly, several times in the bible dead people manifest themselves to the living. im not sure if anywhere in the bible they do good stuff for us but might they? if so might it be approrpeate to thank them and God?

BTW i was talking to one of mother's best freinds in MN a while ago, he's a medical doctor. he said that already there have been thousands of reported miricals associated with Mother but that each one needs to be investigated by the vatican and that most will be dismissed or unvarifiable. the M.C.'s pass out a prayer on a peice of paper that asks you to pray for a miricle from Mother and insert request here and then if you get what you ask for you mail it in to the vatican. i get a kick out of it personally. sinces its a given (i.e. we've got foreknoledge like God's here) that Mother will one day become a saint, we know there's got to be at least one more of these 'varified' miricales. i'd be surprised if it didn't come in the next couple of years.

speaking of which i think we should start our own saint-ify henri nouwen campain. how bout it? on a similar note Might-be-Don suggested that i myself might be a saint on the suicide thread. any takers for one of my miricales? if you put in your request now i'll have it freash in my mind when i die and can make it my top action item.

-Wislawa

for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].

Canticles 8:6

quote:

---

The distinction between "prayer" and "asking" is dubious. "Prayer" IS simply talking to a spiritual being. I consider it to be of some importance that the Bible emphasizes that we should talk/worship/ venerate only ONE spiritual being -- God.

---

quote:

---

follow me on this one. are you trying to say that since prayer is just talking to Jesus and that Peters converstion can be thought of as a prayer, that we arn't supposed to talk to anyone but Jesus? i'm talking to you right now! is that wrong? was Peter wrong if he talked to James? Don't we ask other Christians to pray for us all the time? arn't we just asking for their say-so? why do we think say-so disappears at death, esspecaily when the dead manifest themselves in the bible?

---

quote:

---

Definitely, we do ask people to pray for us, and maybe it's even okay to ask saints to pray for us. But, the problem is when saints are praised when prayers are answered, like in the article I posted above.

---

quote:

---

Should things be any different with spiritual say-so? if a bunch of living people pray for a miricule and put in their two cents of spiritual say-so enough so that combined there is enough for the miricule to come about there is an appropreate way to thank/praise God but also an appropreate way to thank/praise the people because literally speaking had they not acted in the spiritual it would not have happened. This is not to take credit away from God, it is simply to give credit to where credit is due.

---

quote:

---

*A varient of the communion service in the Christian Reformed Church*

SERVICE OF COMMUNION

HYMN #309 "Lift Up Your Hearts unto the Lord"

The Thanksgiving

Lift up your hearts.
We lift them up to the lord.
Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
It is right for us to give thanks and praise,
With joy we praise you, gracious God, for you have created heaven and earth, made us in your image, and kept covenant with us - even when we fell into sin. We give you thanks for Jesus Christ, our lord, and for the pouring forth of our Holy Spirit, who equips us for service and leads us into your truth. Therefore we join our voices with all the saints and angels and the whole creation to proclaim the glory of your name.

HYMN #626 "Holy,Holy,Holy" (3Santo, Santo, Santo")

The Institution

We give thanks to God the Father that our Savior, Jesus Christ, before he suffered, gave us this memorial of his sacrifice, until he comes again. At his last supper, the Lord Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."In the same way, he took the cup, after supper and said, 3This is the new covenant in my blood; do this when ever you drink it, in remembrance of me. For whenever we eat this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim the Lord's death until he comes (1 Cor. 11:23-26).

Therefore we proclaim our faith as signed and sealed in this sacrament.

Christ has died. Christ has risen. Christ will come again.

Prayer of Consecration

Lord, our God, send your Holy Spirit so that this bread and cup may be for us the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. May we and all your saints be united with Christ and remain faithful in hope and love. Gather your whole church, O lord, into the glory of Jesus, who taught us to pray.

HYMN #207 "The Lord's Prayer"

=============================

......now the hymns......

=============================

"Oh, for a Thousand Tongues to Sing"
by Charles Wesley, 1707-1788 / Text From: The Lutheran Hymnal, Concordia Publishing House, 1941

1. Oh, for a thousand tongues to sing / My great Redeemer's praise, / The glories of my God and King, / The triumphs of His grace!

7. Glory to God and praise and love,
Be ever, ever given,
By saints below and saints above,
The Church in earth and heaven.

====================

"The God of Abraham Praise"
by Thomas Olivers, 1725-1799, the handbook to the lutheran hymnal, 1942)

1. The God of Abraham praise; / All praised be His name / Who was and is and is to be / And still the same! / The one eternal God, / Ere aught that now appears; / The First, the Last: beyond all thought / His timeless years!

4. The whole triumphant host
Give thanks to God on high;
"Hail, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!"
They ever cry.
Hail, Abraham's God and mine!--
I join the heavenly lays,--
All might and majesty are Thine,
And endless praise.

====================

"Holy God, We Praise Thy Name"
by Unknown Author, c. 1775 / Trans. by C. A. Walworth, 1820-1900, The Handbook To The Lutheran Hymnal, 1942

1. Holy God, we praise thy name;
Lord of all, we bow before Thee.
All on earth Thy scepter claim,
All in heaven above adore Thee.
Infinite Thy vast domain,
Everlasting is Thy reign.

2. Hark! the glad celestial hymn / Angel choirs above are raising; / Cherubim and seraphim, In unceasing chorus praising, / Fill the heavens with sweet accord: / Holy, holy, holy, Lord!

3. Lo, the apostles' holy train
Join Thy sacred name to hallow;
Prophets swell the glad refrain,
And the white-robed martyrs follow,
And from morn to set of sun
Through the Church the song goes on.

4. Holy Father, holy Son, / Holy Spirit, three we name Thee; / Though in essence only one, Undivided God we claim Thee / And, adoring, bend the knee / While we own the mystery.

====================

"For All the Saints Who from Their Labors Rest" by William W. How, 1823-1897 / Text From: The Handbook To The Lutheran Hymnal, 1942.

1. For all the saints who from their labors rest,
Who Thee by faith before the world confess,
Thy name, O Jesus, be forever blest,
Alleluia! Alleluia!

4. O blest communion, fellowship divine,
We feebly struggle, they in glory shine;
Yet all are one in Thee, for all are Thine.
Alleluia! Alleluia!

6. But, lo, there breaks a yet more glorious day;
The saints triumphant rise in bright array;
The King of Glory passes on His way.
Alleluia! Alleluia!

---