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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 8/29/2001 3:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MT 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

How do such passages fit together? On one hand, God's people are referred to as "a remnant":

RO 9:27 Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

But in other places, it seems that all people will be saved:

RO 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So what is the way to understand these passages? how many people will be saved?

"I had a pleasant evening on Thursday with [Charles] Williams, Tolkien, and Wrenn. The occasion was a discussion of the most distressing text in the Bible ('narrow is the way and few they be that find it') and whether one could really believe in a universe where the majority were damned and also in the goodness of God. Wrenn, of course, took the view that it mattered precisely nothing whether it conformed to your ideas of goodness or not. [But] the general sense of the meeting was in favour of a view on the lines taken in Pastor Pastorum--that our Lord's replies are never straight answers and never gratify curiosity, and that whatever this one meant its purpose was certainly not statistical..." (C.S. Lewis)

Maybe we can't get farther than this, but it does seem to be an important issue to discuss.

So thoughts would be appreciated...

God bless you,
Lee

==================================================
"What we love, we shall grow to resemble" (Bernard of Clairveaux)
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Edited by - Lee Merrill on 08/29/2001 8:48:31 PM
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whasssuuuppp
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   Posted 8/29/2001 4:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I remember learning in a theology class that in the original Greek, there isn't punctuation. So, in order to make an exclamation (!), without using punctuation, the authors would use hyperbolic phrases. I think some of the verses you listed are hyperbolic, and the speaker is using varying degrees of hyperbole depending on the audience and the point he's trying to make in the context.

************************

Every atom of carbon inside our bodies was once inside a star. We are all made from the ashes of dead stars.
John Polkinghorne

Edited by - whasssuuuppp on 08/29/2001 9:38:26 PM
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writerdad
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   Posted 8/29/2001 7:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lee: I don't know how many will be saved, but I believe Romans 11:32, in the part "may have mercy on them all," may provide a key. Christ died that all may have the potential to be saved, but not all will be saved because not all will take the step of faith. Those are my thoughts. John 17:3 Harold



Edited by - writerdad on 08/30/2001 01:00:36 AM
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writerdad
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   Posted 8/29/2001 8:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lee: I would just like to add, again, that I don't know hardly anything about universalism, so feel free to post any infor you find relevant. The verses you brought up do seem to be conflicting and my answer might shed some light, but it would seem that much thought should be brought to the subject, for it does seem to be that they are saying two different things. John 17:3 Harold

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writerdad
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   Posted 8/29/2001 8:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
By the way, are you reading any good books on the subject...

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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 8/31/2001 10:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for you all's replies, here are some further thoughts...

quote:
I think some of the verses you listed are hyperbolic

I would be surprised, though, if the use here is hyperbolic. I'm not sure it is used by Scripture writers for emphasis, even the most-referred-to hyperbolic passage can be interpreted literally:

JN 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

He made every star, and there are billions and billions of galaxies, each with millions and billions of stars, just a catalog of the names (they all have names! Ps. 147:4) would make a real mountain or two of books. And then he made all the molecules, which come (as you quoted!) from the stars, so that would be an earth-filling catalog. So it's quite accurate, an understatement, actually...

quote:
By the way, are you reading any good books on the subject...


Yes, I am reading John Owen's "The Death of Death," which addresses what he refers to as "the general ransom" extensively. Though I find that he is convincing me more that Universalism is true (he is not a Universalist), but he also addresses the idea that Christ provided salvation for all, and that then men have to choose whether they will accept that offer. He (I think) shows some good reasons to believe that Christ's death saves his elect, not just provides a possible salvation for them. But its difficult reading, it's taking me weeks to work my way through it...

quote:
The verses you brought up do seem to be conflicting


Yes, I just posted that as I was wondering myself how they could be reconciled, here are some thoughts that occurred to me after some further seeking:

MT 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
How many find it? None, I think:
RO 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith.
RO 10:20 And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."
The number who are saved is not described as few, but as many, or even as all:
HEB 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory...
MK 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
1TI 2:6 ...who gave himself as a ransom for all men.
Lost coins, lost sheep, lost sons do not seek themselves, they need to be found:
LK 15:24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.
Not was lost, and found his way back again...

RO 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved."
RO 9:28 For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.
So perhaps this only refers to coming to salvation while on earth, only a remnant will make that turn, and thus the possibility of turning after death is not addressed by this verse.
EZE 37:13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.

Further thoughts appreciated!

Blessings,
Lee

=======================================================
"What we love, we shall grow to resemble" (Bernard of Clairveaux)
=======================================================

Edited by - Lee Merrill on 08/31/2001 3:04:54 PM
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Modes of Thought
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   Posted 8/31/2001 11:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just for fun add 1 Cor. 15:22-28 to your list of potential support for universalism. Verse 22 has all being saved and 28 has it that in the end God wil be "all in all". What room does that leave for hell? That "other" place not included in the "all in all?"

Actually the logic leading up to vs. 28 is pretty tight, the last enemy to be destroyed is death and the only qualification is that in subjecting ALL things under Christ is that God is no so subjected. However, to nail that down tighter, Christ does then subject himself and ALL things under God in the end, so that God may be all in all...

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK
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Modes of Thought
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   Posted 8/31/2001 11:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In terms of the original question...my guess is that there is an exam, a theological version of the GRE that St. Peter gives at the gate. This is why it is so important that we get our theology perfected before we die. Of course, all get in (that's only fair, right?), but you can only get to the top level (seventh, NOT third) of heaven if you get higher than 2000.

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/1/2001 6:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Actually. . .MODES, it has less to do with actual theology as it does with the brut numbe of posts one has on this website. I'm only posting this onw to be tied with you again; as I'm not sure were the cut-off point is.

PotOnWheel

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/1/2001 7:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
writerdad -- Thanks for asking Lee about what he's reading.

Lee -- I read (a few times) Packer's intro to one of Owen's books. Very interesting. Very. But one thing had struck me the wrong way.....so I polled my Calvinsit friends, and got three different asnwers. Two seminary trained (one RCA and one CRC/Calvin, the third a PhD in histoy in church hiostory from Prinsto) I'll just post them here:

quote:

The quote chosen by J.R. Packer, from Owen's book which he was reviewing.
---------------------------------------------
by J. I. Packer -- Chapter 8, A QUEST FOR GODLINESS, The Puritan Vision of the Christian Life (J. I. Packer's introduction to a 1958 reprint of John Owen's The Death of Death in the Death of Christ (Banner of Truth: London)

Footnote 23.
Owen indicates more than once that for a complete statement of the case against universal redemption he would need to write a further book, dealing with 'the other part of the controversy, concerning the cause of sending Christ' (pp 245, 295). Its main thesis, apparently, would have been that 'the fountain and cause of God's sending Christ, is his eternal love to his elect, and to them alone' (p 131)I, and it would have contained a more large explication of God's purpose of election and reprobation, Ishowing how the death of Christ was a means set apart and appointed for the saving of his elect, and not at all undergone or suffered for those which, in his eternal counsel, he did determine should perish for their sins' (p 245)I. It looks, therefore, as if it would have included the 'clearing of our doctrine of reprobation, and of the administration of God's providence towards the reprobates, and over all their actions', which Owen promised in the epistle prefixed to A Display of Arminianism (Works, X:9), but never wrote. However, we can understand his concluding that it was really needless to slaughter the same adversary twice. .
. .
.........

The parts I wonder about are (because they are identifiable to me as "double predestination" and seemingly at odds with John 3:16...):

.....Its main thesis, apparently, would have been that
.....'the fountain and cause of God's sending Christ,
.....is his eternal love to his elect, and to them alone'

.....and

.....showing how the death of Christ was a means
.....set apart and appointed for the saving of his elect,
.....and not at all undergone or suffered for those which,
.....in his eternal counsel, he did determine should
.....perish for their sins'


My friend's responses were. . .(I got varying input by my cradle-Reformed friends.):

quote:
1. LEAST STRICT...

Calvin (not Dutch, but Reformed) had a phrase he used regularly when people asked questions or proposed answers regarding aspects of God's will or actions not clear from Scripture: "vain speculation." That seems to me a good description of any human attempt to nail down God's motivation with the kind of precise boundaries used above.

I also think the whole Reformed idea of what the kingdom is suggests that Christ's coming does indeed benefit the unredeemed as well as the redeemed. Certainly we have acted as if this is the case, in our "deed" ministries, which we distinguish clearly from those traditions who suggest that physical mercy is only or at least primarily to be bait for catching souls. The CRC, at least, has long said that physical mercy is a sign of the kingdom and is valid because meeting physical needs is important--always done in the name of Christ and pointing to his love, but not something you stop if you get no "spiritual" payback.

However, I can see that Calvinists, believing in the efficacy of God's call (irresistable grace and all that), would have problems saying that Christ suffered and died for the non-elect. That could imply that his suffering was ineffectual.

My own take on this (but I'm not representing anything official) is that indeed "God so loved the world that he sent his only Son" means that we shouldn't presume to specificy which portions of the world God loved and which he didn't in that sending. But of course that leaves the problem unresolved of whether God could love but not elect some. Frankly, I don't think anyone understands this. I think the doctrine of election does its best to reflect the teaching in Scripture that we cannot come to God without his choosing to draw us to him. Unfortunately, it's impossible to talk about God's sovereign choice of some without concluding then that God must either have chosen NOT to save some, or that he chooses to save all. Reformed theology says the Scripture implies that not all are saved.

2. MIDDLE...

If T.U.L.I.P. summarizes the canons, the L stands for Limited Atonement which is the idea that Jesus only died for the elect. The doctrine argues that Jesus would not have "wasted" His blood on those who would reject His saving work.

When it concern(s) the reprobates...Calvinism does not emphasize "double predestination", if you will. It would seem logical that if God chose certain ones for heaven that he must have chosen others for hell, but Calvinism, beginning with the premise of total depravity moves on to the conclusion that all of us were already on our way to hell because of our sin. God, in His grace, chose to save some from that inevitable end. This would keep predestination in the mysterious choice of God in His grace.

3. STRICT, PRESBYTERIAN (WESTMINSTER) CALVINISM...

It strikes me as fairly typical hardline Calvinism on the issue of definite (limited) atonement

If your question is whether such talk is consistent with Dutch Calvinism, I think it is. The Canons of Dordt say pretty much the same thing, don't they? It isn't precisely double predestination, as far as I can figure, since the language still can accommodate the usual concept of reprobation, namely passing over, leaving people in their sin, rather than creating them for the express purpose of damning them.



........

(ANOTHER ISSUE IS WHAT DO I WANT MY KIDS HAVING TO DEAL WITH IN A FEW YEARS. IS BEING AROUND THIS VIEW SPIRITUALLY HEALTHY?)


PotOnWheel

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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/2/2001 7:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
add 1 Cor. 15:22-28 to your list of potential support for universalism.


Yes, I agree. And John 3:16, as PotOnWheel suggests. And about J.I. Packer's preface and the responses...

quote:
the death of Christ was a means set apart and appointed for the saving of his elect, and not at all undergone or suffered for those which, in his eternal counsel, he did determine should perish for their sins'



quote:
It isn't precisely double predestination, as far as I can figure, since the language still can accommodate the usual concept of reprobation, namely passing over, leaving people in their sin, rather than creating them for the express purpose of damning them.


This doesn't hold up, though, Spurgeon says the same in his sermon on Calvinism, and the Calvinists authors all seem to say this. But on the next page they will insist with authority and certainty that all is under God's control, foreordained by him, and carried out in accordance with his plan. So this seems to me to be a twisting in the wind, to adopt an expedient, which essentially requires them to let go what they grasped with their right hand, in order not to grasp the same object with their left hand.

Here is an example of not only this denial, but a seeming flat denial of Scripture, from Christopher Ness' "Antidote to Arminianism," some of which I agree with, but he goes astray here:

quote:
The persons spoken of in 2 Peter 2:1, as 'denying the Lord that bought them, ' are described by the apostle thus, 'false teachers'— hypocritical professors, tares among the wheat (Mt 13:25,38), in whom was never the root of the matter; not bought and redeemed by Christ from eternal death, but had merely escaped, or abstained, from the pollutions of the world through a theoretical knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (2Pe 2:20).


He seems to say here that the Lord did not purchase them, but the verse seems to plainly say that he did. Thus there seems to be a determination to hold onto this doctrine, even at the price of saying that this verse does not mean that he bought them.

God bless you,
Lee

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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/2/2001 7:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Back to 1 Corinthians...

1CO 15:22,25 "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

"In Adam all die," this undeniably has to refer to all people without exception.

"So in Christ all will be made alive." The parallel seems to imply that "all" refers to the same group of people here.

"For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."

This becomes very strained if we have to insist that "all" here refers only to believers. But another approach can be taken, to say that "put under his feet" may be willing (for believers), or unwilling (for unbelievers).

"When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

But there seems to be a parallelism here, the subduing and submission of Christ's enemies to Christ, and the submission of Christ to God. So the submission "so that God may be all in all," seems to be (eventual) willing submission, as Christ's is.

And if the willing/unwilling distinction is present here, why does Paul not say "put his enemies and friends under his feet?" if there is a difference, why are not two groups of people mentioned here?

And the possibility of repentance after death seems to be even referred to here, though indirectly (verses 28-29):

"Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?"

So it seems this is tending to support the Universalist view.



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GregBoyd
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   Posted 9/2/2001 1:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For what its worth

I recall the old staunch Princetonian Calvinist Benjamin Warfield wrote an article that impressed me at the time (25+ years ago) entitled something like "Are There Few That Be
Saved?" [You can locate it in any standard collection of Warfield's works]. He basically argued that Jesus' statement was descriptive of the state of affairs at the time he was speaking but not meant to be a normative statement for all time. Warfield argued that we have good reason to conclude that when history is completed we will see that the devil did not get "the lion's share." The majority of people, he argued, are elect.

Another GREAT book on this topic -- Lee, I think you'd LOVE this one -- is Punt's book, Biblical Universalism. He is also another 5 pts Calvinist, but he believes that the vast majorityof people are elect. He argues that the Bible often speaks unequivocally ("all," "every") but means only "many", for the unequivocally is qualified elsewhere. So, he argues that because of Calvary ALL ARE saved, unless they intentionally put themselves OUT of this salvation. Some do this, but they are the exception to the rule. (I'm not sure how Punt squares this apparent freedom to thwart God's plan with his Calvinism.)

Later Lee. Good Questions you raise. Thanks.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul
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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/2/2001 1:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Benjamin Warfield ... basically argued that Jesus' statement was descriptive of the state of affairs at the time he was speaking but not meant to be a normative statement for all time.


Thank you, I hadn't thought of that! That is a good possibility.

quote:
Punt's book, Biblical Universalism. He is also another 5 pts Calvinist, but he believes that the vast majorityof people are elect.


I'm interested! I'll definitely read his book (and try to find and read the Benjamin Warfield article as well).

I found a reference to Warfield's beliefs on the web, but not the article:

quote:
Dr. S.S. Graig, in The Presbyterian, Jan. 30, 1930, wrote, "According to the latter (Dr. B.B. Warfield), there is no warrant for saying that the Scriptures teach that but few are saved, and that while some will be lost, yet that when the Scriptures say that Christ came to save the world, that He does save the world and that the world shall be saved by Him. They mean that He came to save and does save the human race, and that the human race is being led by God to a racial salvation, that in the age-long development of the race of men, it will attain at last to a complete salvation, and our eyes will be greeted with the spectacle of a saved world. Thus the human race attains to the goal for which it was created, and sin does not snatch it out of God's hands; the primal purpose of God with it is fulfilled; and through Christ the race of men, though fallen into sin, is recovered to God, and fulfills its original destiny."


quote:
Dr. Warfield believed what Paul taught in 1 Tim. 4:9-11: "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL men. Specially of those that believe. These things command and teach." While Dr. Warfield spend most of his life teaching the Calvinist "election doctrine" which usually meant few would be saved, it seems Dr. Warfield softened up quite a bit in his latter years.


Of all people, I would not have believed that Benjamin Warfield was inclined to Universalism, that is a (pleasant) surprise. And also F.F. Bruce is quoted in the review at Amazon.com (for Punt's book) as saying the book reflects his view as well! I know George MacDonald was a Universalist, and also, C.S. Lewis seems to have been open on the matter. Lots of unexpected turns at the outset, for me at least...

God bless you,
Lee

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"What we love, we shall grow to resemble" (Bernard of Clairveaux)
==================================================

Edited by - Lee Merrill on 09/02/2001 6:46:39 PM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/2/2001 8:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi friends! Well, this isn't short--sorry.

The discusssion between Lee and Doc is very interesting. What I'm going to post here is related. BUT, it is not part of the well-warn path of western disucssion of the topic of salvation. (Should I have posted it as a sparate topic?) Your disussion concerns" "What did Christ accomplish, how, and for whom?" I hope that this adds something to your thoughtful consideration of that topic.

POW

Which of "3" definitions of human "nature" for union w/ Christ. . .

Mandzaridis' treats to topic "The Regeneration of Human Nature in Christ" ...... but in doing so shows three (3, yes 3!) definitions for "nature" and the differences matter!

quote:
"As we said, however, Palamas lays particular stress on the fact of the hypostatic union in Christ's person of the divine and the human. From the Virgin, the Logos of God took on a body, although pure yet nonetheless mortal and capable of suffering. And he says on another occasion, as we saw, that it was not fitting for Christ to die a natural death -- not because he adopts any aphthartodeocetic notions, but because he sees death as being directly related to sin; and, for the same reason, neither John the Baptist nor the saints underwent a natural death. As a matter of fact, Palamas' teaching rules out all docetic concepts of regeneration in Christ; and everything he ways more specifically about the honor conferred on man's mortal body through the incarnation of the Logos of God is, as Kern observes, the Christian ascetic's hymn in praise of man and his body.

When the Logos of God took on human nature, He bestowed on it the fullness of His grace and delivered it from the bonds of corruption and death. The consequence of this hypostatic union in Christ of the two natures was the deification of the human nature He assumed: "For the Logos became flesh, and the flesh became the Logos, even through neither abandoned its own proper nature." Thus was brought about in Christ the regeneration of the "image" and its elevation towards the archetype.

The position adopted here by Palamas is in line with the so called "physical" view of deification. This "physical" view, which derives the deification of human nature from its hypostatic union with the incarnate Logos of God, was advanced by Irenaeus and further developed by Athanasius the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Cyriil of Alexandria, Maximus the Confessor and John of Damascus, thus becoming the common property of the Orthodox tradition. Transposing the trinitarian doctrine on to an anthropological plane, Gregory of Nyssa teaches that the nature of man is one, but is distinguished into many individual hypostastasis But as John of Damascus points out, *1* "nature" can be understood to denote an abstraction, in which case it has no intrinsic reality; *2* secondly, to denote a species, in which case it comprises all the individual hypostases of that species; and *3* thirdly, it can be viewed as a particular, in which case it is linked with the nature of the species but does not comprise all its individual hypostatsis. The Logos of God made flesh did not take on human nature in the first two senses, because in the first case there would be no incarnation but only delusion, and in the second case there would be incarnation in all human individual hypostases. Therefore, what the Logos of God took on in His incarnation was the first fruit of our substance," individual nature, which did not previously exist as individual in itself, but came into existence in His hypostasis.

Gregory Palamas teaches explicitly that regeneration in Christ is not regeneration of individual human hypostases, but of responsible human nature, with which the Logos of God united Himself in His own hypostasis: "He renewed, not our hypostasis, but our nature, which He assumed, united to it in His own hypostasis." In the person of Christ existed, in its entirety, human nature individually particularized, which, being hypostatically unified with the Logos of God, was deified and received the fullness of the divine energy. For Palamas and the Orthodox tradition, the flesh of Christ, being the body of the Logos of God incarnate, is the point of man's contact with God, and furnishes the way to the Kingdom of heaven. Athanasius the Great formulates this briefly, saying that, whereas after Adam's transgression all men were led towards corruption, Christ's flesh, being the body of the Logos of God, was the first to be delivered and saved; and thereafter, he adds, we, "being one body with Him, are saved in His body; for in His body Christ leads us to the Kingdom of heaven and to His Father."

Through the deification of Christ's human nature, the "first fruits of our substance" were deified, and a "new root" was created, capable of instilling life and incorruptibility into its shoots. Possessing as it does the fulness of divine grace, it imparts this to men. For, as Palamas says, no one among created beings can contain the infinite power of the Spirit except He who was conceived in the virginal womb, through the coming of the Holy Spirit and the overshadowing of the Most High. It is because of this that He could contain within Himself "the fullness of divinity," whereas we can only receive "from His fullness."

The regeneration of man in Christ is not just his restoration to heaven. God in His wisdom converted Adam's self-willed defection into an opportunity for his advancement; "God in His wisdom and power knew how to convert the falls resulting from our self-willed defection to good ends."

But man's link with the new root in Christ does not derive from a natural cause, as does his link with the old root in Adam. Whereas men's descent from Adam links them automatically with the old root in him, union with the new root is brought about by free personal participation in the regeneration in Christ. Thus the "physical" view of deification developed by the Greek Fathers and by Palamas does not imply any mechanical commutation of humanity, but an ontological regeneration of human nature in the hypostasis of the incarnate Logos of God, accessible to every man who participates personally and freely in the life of Christ.

In deriving the deification of the human nature of Christ from its hypostatic union with the Logos of God, the Church Fathers and Palamas do not undertake the saving and regenerative significance of His death and resurrection; but they establish a secure foundation on which these can be safely considered as the sources of men's regeneration. In other words, the Church Fathers and Palamas are not concerned with the actual moment of the incarnation so much as with the entire fact of God's dispensation as achieved in the person of Christ, who was born, loved, taught, performed miracles, died, was resurrected and ascended into heaven.

The assumption of human nature by the Logos of God from the womb of the Virgin is the foundation and starting point of His incarnation and of the deification of humanity; their consummation is to be found in the passion and resurrection. Among the events of this divine dispensation, says Palamas,

....."the best of all or, rather, the incomparably and
.....uniquely best is the incarnation of the Lord Jesus
.....Christ, and most of all consummation of this,
.....the saving passion and the resurrection . . . For then
.....everything needed for our salvation was accomplished:
.....the perfect dispensation of the Son of God in
.....the flesh, His inspired teaching, the consequences of this
.....theandric activity, the imparting of the theandric
.....body, the divine saving sacrifice, the arising from the
.....dead after three days, the beginning of eternal life
.....and of the delight in God that it confers. "

The hardest battle against the devil was fought upon the Cross, and sin was abolished against thereby; the glorification of human nature in Christ was accomplished through the resurrection. Finally, Christ's ascension, as the crown of His dispensation, guided human nature to the glory of the Father."

=============================================
pp (28)29-32 in 'The Regeneration of Human Nature in Christ" -- Ch.1/sect 2 in Mandzaridis' "The Deification of Man",
(a book which is quoted by Robert Rakestraw of Bethel Seminary in his June '97 JETS article: "BECOMING LIKE GOD: AN EVANGELICAL DOCTRINE OF THEOSIS " available on the net at )




PotOnWheel



Edited by - PotOnWheel on 09/03/2001 01:55:45 AM

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 09/03/2001 12:37:51 PM

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 09/03/2001 1:14:41 PM
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GregBoyd
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   Posted 9/3/2001 6:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lee, I would not describe Warfield, Punt or Lewis as "inclined to" or even "open to" universalism. They simply affirm that the human situation changed radically with the incarnation and atonement (agreeing, to some extent, with the orthodox perspective posted by PotonWheels). But they nevertheless held that people can and do eternally refused this "new position." Lewis is close to annihilationism, but not universalism.

To help you out in your research, here are the best defenses of universalism I have found. J. Bonda’s The One Purpose of God, trans. R. Bruinsma (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1993). T. Talbot, "The Doctrine of Everlasting Punishment," Faith and Philosophy, 7 (1990), 19-42; J. R. Sachs, "Current Eschatology: Universalism, Salvation and the Problem of Hell," Theological Studies 52 (1991), 227-54.

Some compelling refutations of universalism are W. Crockett, "Will God Save Everyone in the End?" in W. Crockett, J. Sigountos, Through No Fault of Their Own? (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1991), 159-68; J. D. Bettis, "A Critique of the Doctrine of Universal Salvation," Religious Studies 6 (Dec. 1970), 329-44; H. Brown, "Will Everyone Be Saved? Pastoral Renewal 11 (June 1987), 11-16; Kavnig, The Problem of Hell; and N. M. de S. Cameron, ed. Universalism and the Doctrine of Hell (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book, 1992).

Happy reading

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul
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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/3/2001 2:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for the quote, PotOnWheel, I think I agree with what the author is saying, though I'm not familiar with all the terms that he uses.

I appreciate the references, Dr. Boyd, I found some of the books via the bookstore, and will have to fish for the rest. Time to look for nearby Bible colleges and seminaries! I only wish I still lived near Wheaton, lots of good Christian libraries...

Since not many people seem to be arriving to refute Universalism, I will argue with myself! Here is another passage, from Hebrews 6 and 10 (similar enough to consider together), that seem to refute Universalism.

God bless you,
Lee

HEB 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

"The writer bends over backward to make sure the reader understands that the persons he is describing are genuine, born-again believers. The individuals had been 'enlightened.' The author uses this same term again in the tenth chapter where it is clearly used to refer to believers (see Heb. 10:32)."
HEB 10:32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings.
"Consistency would argue for the reference in the sixth chapter to be to true believers as well. The expression 'have tasted of the heavenly gift' uses the term tasted in such a way as to denote 'experienced.' One commentator writes, 'The verb itself did not mean a mere sampling, but a real experience, as its use in Acts 10:10 attests ["He became hungry and wanted something to taste"]. The writer of Hebrews has already used "tasted" in the sense of experienced in 2:9 where "Christ tasted death." Surely the meaning is that He actually experienced it.' "

"Probably the strongest argument for these persons being genuine Christians is the author's next statement: 'And have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit.' Earlier in Hebrews the author talks about his audience being 'partakers of a heavenly calling' and 'partakers of Christ.' In these instances there seems to be no doubt he is referring to authentic Christians. Once again, consistency would argue for his use of 'partakers' in chapter 6 to be referring to persons who had experienced the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit." (Charles Stanley, from "Eternal Security," Zondervan Publishing)

But the writer here says he is convinced the people that he is writing to will not fall away:
HEB 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left ...
HEB 10:30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
He is clearly talking about believers here, he includes himself ("If we..."), and has just finished exhorting his listeners to keep meeting together, and to encourage one another, these exhortations cannot reasonably be applied to unbelievers:
HEB 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together...let us encourage one another.
In "The Lord will judge his people," "his people" cannot refer to the people being punished, as the referenced verse(s) show:
DT 32:36 The Lord will judge his people and have compassion on his servants when he sees their strength is gone and no one is left, slave or free.
PS 135:14 For the Lord will vindicate his people and have compassion on his servants.
So this has to be read "the Lord will judge his injured people," i.e. injured by the sin of those who fall away from the faith. "Vindicate" might be a better word to use here, as in the Psalm 135:14 translation, instead of "judge."

"If, knowing this, they revert to an attitude of rejection, of continual sin (cf. the present participle hamartanonton rendered "keep on sinning"), then there remains no sacrifice for sins. Such people have rejected the sacrifice of Christ, and the preceding argument has shown that there is no other. If they revert to the Jewish sacrificial system, they go back to sacrifices that their knowledge of Christianity teaches them cannot put away sin (v. 4)." (Expositor's Bible Commentary)

HEB 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Here is a parallel, and it is not just any *serious* transgression of the law, but any transgression whatsoever:
NU 15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
NU 15:35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp."

Then he again reviews his audience, they are undoubtedly believers:
HEB 10:34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
No unbeliever has "lasting possessions." Thus if this verse refutes Universalism, almost certainly eternal security for the believer is refuted as well. But I believe that eternal security is clearly taught in Scripture. So how may this passage be interpreted?

HEB 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
"We" is used again here, but now in reassurance. The same people he addressed at the start are still being addressed here. So apparently the possibility is theoretical, the danger is there, but so also is the security. No other people have been addressed in this passage, so perhaps these passages will not actually need to be applied to anyone. And there are many verses that do indicate eternal security:

2CO 5:5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

"It is the earnest penny of our salvation, not the pawn or pledge, which is to be returned again. The earnest is a part of the bargain, and the first fruits of Heaven. Now the earnest would be lost if the bargain of salvation stand not, and he that hath the earnest be not saved; and if such an one be damned, he carries the earnest of the Spirit along with him into hell, which must needs be absurd." (Christopher Ness)

EPH 1:13-14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance."

"They first believed and then were sealed, i.e., fully assured. God honours our sealing to His truth by His sealing with His Spirit; as the earnest makes the bargain, so the seal ratifies and confirms it. And the broad seal of Heaven must needs be more unalterable than that of the Medes and Persians."

"Saints are compared to a tree that fades not (Ps 1:3); to a cedar in Lebanon (Ps 92:12; Ho 14:5); to Mount Zion that cannot be moved but abides for ever (Ps 125:1); and to a house built on a rock (Mt 7:24). Though they fall, God raises them up (Ps 37:24; Pr 24:16)." (Christopher Ness)

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"What we love, we shall grow to resemble" (Bernard of Clairveaux)
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Edited by - Lee Merrill on 09/03/2001 7:38:32 PM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/3/2001 5:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Something to consider:



on the topic of "Hebrews 6:4-6 - Falling Away from the Faith"
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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/4/2001 1:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, PotOnWheel, that helps me understand Orthodox theology better. I way (trying to be) reading some of Gregory of Nyssa's writings (since he has been described as a universalist), and about to give up on him as unorthodox (since he didn't seem to believe in regeneration). Now I realize he is Orthodox, I just should have spelled it with a capital O.

God bless you,
Lee

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/4/2001 6:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I gather that "regeneration" has its own history and specific focus, from what you were looking?

Rest easy (as I think you do) that the Orthodox beliefe in redemption/atonement/:


quote:
This is the pivotal doctrine of the Orthodox Christian faith, expressed over and again in many ways throughout the history of the Orthodox Church. It is the doctrine of the atonement -- for we are made to be "at one" with God. It is the doctrine of redemption -- for we are redeemed, i.e., "bought with a price," the great price of the blood of God (Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 6:20).


PotOnWheel

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/4/2001 6:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lee: I hope you figured out long ago that I, personally, am not a good source for anything. But I am a willing grunt in finding and posting.

And I bet you are getting the idea that the Orthodox not only have different categories, they conceive of them differently from what the Western tradition (conditioned by Nominalism and Scholasticism) does. Said more simply, not only are some of their answers different, the questions are as well.

I bet they don't ask about "universalism" the way you have been discussing it. Clavinist/Arminean doesn't exits. I don't think EDF/OV does either. What I wish I could say with brevity and style is that what they mean by "tradition" is not what springs to our minds either. You mentioned Gregory of Nyssa. The Orthodox Tradition can affirm someone's contribution to spiritual insight (via actually being led by the Spirit) without all their ideas being brought into the center of doctrinal ideas. The emphasis is very much (as it impresses me in reading) on the Spirit, and the Spirit's actions through the Church as a whole. The Ecumenical councils make cannon. (Local councils..well you can read about it yourself) Lots is opinion. Some pairs of positions can't both be right. But if one stops for a moment trying to fit in all into a Scholastic "mold" the Spirit's leading can be seen. The salvific issues are defined and protected. All else points to the Lord, and not to itself.

But there are some interesting what-ifs!

Below is an example, dwelling on God's mercy and love (from Biship Kallistos Ware's book "The Orthodox Way":) and exploring the "what if" of if the fall had not happened:

quote:
The Jesus Prayer ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a/the sinner"), then, indicated both man's problem and God's solution, Jesus is the Savior, the anointed king, the one who has mercy. But the Prayer also tells us something more about the person of Jesus himself. He is addressed as "Lord" and "Son of God": here the Prayer speaks of his Godhead, of his transcendence and eternity. But he is addressed equally as "Jesus", that is, by the personal name which his mother and his foster-father gave him after his human birth in Bethlehem. So the Prayer speaks also of his manhood, of the genuine reality of his birth as a human being.

The Jesus Prayer is thus an affirmation of faith in Jesus Christ as alike truly divine and fully human. He is the Theanthropos or "God -man", who saves us from our sins precisely because he is God and man at once. Man could not come to God, so God has come to man -- by making himself human. In his outgoing or "ecstatic" love, God unites himself to his creation in the closest of all possible unions, by himself becoming that which he has created. God, as man, fulfills the mediatorial task which man rejected in the fall, Jesus our Savior bridges the abyss between God and man because he is both at once. As we say in one of the Orthodox hymns for Christmas Eve, "Heaven and earth are united today, for Christ is born. Today had God come down to earth, and man gone up to heaven".

The Incarnation, then, is God's supreme act of deliverance restoring us to communion with himself. But what would have happened if there had never been a fall? Would God have chosen to become man, even if man had never sinned? Should the Incarnation be regarded simply as God's response to the predicament of fallen man, or is it in some way part of the eternal purpose of God? Should we look behind the fall, and see God;s act of becoming man as the fulfillment of man's true destiny?

To this hypothetical question it is not possible for us, in our present situation, to give any final answer. Living as we do under the conditions of the fall, we cannot clearly imagine what God's relation to mankind would have been, had the fall never occurred. Christian writers have therefore in most cases limited their discussion of the Incarnation to the context of man's fallen state. But there are a few who have ventured to take a wider view, most notably St. Isaac the Syrian and St. Maximus the Confessor in the East, and Duns Scotus in the West. The Incarnation, says St. Isaac, is the most blessed and joyful thing that could possibly have happened to the human race. Can it be right, then, to assign a cause for this joyful happening something which might never have occurred, and indeed ought never to have done so? Surely, not only as an act of restoration, not only as a response to man's sin, but also and more fundamentally as an act of live, and expression of God's own nature. Even had there been no fall, God in his on limitless, outgoing love would still have chosen to identify himself with his creation by becoming man.

The Incarnation of Christ, looked at in this way, effects more than reversal of the fall, more than a restoration of man to his original state in Paradise. When God becomes man, this marks the beginning of an essentially new stage in the history of man, and not just a return to the past. The Incarnation raises man to a new level; the last state is higher than the first. Only in Jesus Christ do we see revealed the full possibilities of our human nature; until he is born, the true implications of our personhood are still hidden from us. Christ's birth, as St. Basil puts it, is "the birthday of the whole human race"; Christ is the first perfect man -- perfect, that is to say, not just in a potential sense, as Adam was in his innocence before the fall, but in the sense of the completely realized "likeness". The Incarnation, then, is not simply a way of undoing the effects of original sin, but it is an essential state upon man's journey from the divine image to the divine likeness. The true image and likeness of God is Christ himself, the Incarnation of Christ was in some way already implied. The true reason for the Incarnation, then, lies not in man's sinfulness but in his unfallen nature as a being made in the divine image and capable of union with God. (pp.69-71, "The Orthodox Way", K. Ware)


PotOnWheel

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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/8/2001 1:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for the quote, PotOnWheel, I think I agree!

quote:
The true reason for the Incarnation, then, lies not in man's sinfulness but in his unfallen nature as a being made in the divine image and capable of union with God.


C.S. Lewis expressed some similar thoughts in the conclusion of "Perelandra," when the unfallen Adam and Eve of the planet Venus take the throne, after their trial and temptation, which they did resist. He describes a sort of "step up" at this point, which, while it is addressed to the Adam and Eve of that world, has echos of the incarnation.

"The world is born today," said Malacandra. "Today for the first time two creatures of the low worlds, two images of Maleldil [the word for God in this book] that breathe and breed like the beasts, step up that step at which your parents fell, and sit in the throne of what they were meant to be."

God bless you,
Lee

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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/8/2001 1:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Some further thoughts about universalism: if all will be saved, then why does the Scripture talk about two types of people, the righteous and the wicked? And if we consider the fact that no-one on earth is completely righteous or completely wicked (as far as I know), then this becomes even stronger, since there are many places in Scripture that do not seem to acknowledge this, it is as if the writer is viewing people in their final state:

PS 1:5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

PR 11:31 If the righteous receive their due on earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner!

And it does seem that Scripture teaches that there is a point beyond which people will not change:

REV 22:11 "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

First, I would note that everyone on earth starts out wicked:

PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

And to become one of the righteous, involves leaving the one class, to belong to the other:

RO 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Thus wicked people can become one of "the righteous."

But what about the verse that says "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong"? It actually seems to be placed at the time when the Revelation was given:

REV 22:10 Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near."

So this cannot mean that no-one could be saved after that time! Also, an invitation is given just a few verses later:

REV 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

So whatever this verse may mean, it seems that it doesn't prevent people from coming to the Lord, and thus being transformed.

I would appreciate comments on this verse, though, for it does seem to be important to consider in the area of universalism...

God bless you,
Lee

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/8/2001 5:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks Lee -- I haven't read that since about 1981, during a rather tumultuous first year of grad. school (of three) where those three (3!) books were both challenging and stabbelizing for me. (More than Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mantainance was--my friends want to H.S. with Piersig's kid.)
quote:
in "Perelandra" when the unfallen Adam and Eve of the planet Venus take the throne, after their trial and temptation, which they did resist. He describes a sort of "step up" at this point, which, while it is addressed to the Adam and Eve of that world, has echos of the incarnation.
"The world is born today," said Malacandra. "Today for the first time two creatures of the low worlds, two images of Maleldil [the word for God in this book] that breathe and breed like the beasts, step up that step at which your parents fell, and sit in the throne of what they were meant to be."

This might explain why Lewis is so beloved of Evangelicals, much to Pcker's wondering, and disaproval in CT a while back. He drew from the earlier saints and presented it to us in a way that we could be confronted by it, and we longed for it to be true....and it was.

PotOnWheel

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/8/2001 7:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lee -- I think I remember your posting the verse which says" "even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Current attention being paid to the word "all."

Along that line I was reading Kallistos Ware's treatment of "God as Man". Ware grew up Anglican. We westerners, I'm told, divide salvation into parts, separating things like regeneration and sanctification; and sometimes make it a past tense thing. (Like what you read on a link about how we can talk about being saved almost like we no longer need a Savior.) After teaching in three Wesleyan colleges and one Dutch Reformed it strikes me that both those cousins divide 'em up, only a bit differently. But as an alternative, what if you take Ware's three (not a significant number, here, me thinks) aspects for discussing the Incarnation: sharing, solidarity and identification. Separate they allow us to dwell on each a bit. The sharing aspect might allow you to deal with the all a bit more comfortably! (Remember that this is not the only aspect: salvation involves Incarnation, Gethsemanie, Calvary, the Tomb, Resurrection, etc.)

Perhaps, then, the KEY word ends up being "IN." (Lewis B. Smedes, a Reformed Theologian, wrote a book on that.)

quote:
The notion of sharing is a key alike to the doctrine of God in Trinity and to the doctrine of God made man. The doctrine of the Trinity affirms that, just as man is authentically personal only when he shares with others, so God is not a single person swelling alone, but three persons who share each other's life in perfect love. The Incarnation equally is a doctrine of sharing or participation. Christ shares to the full in what we are, and so he makes it possible for us to share in what he is, in his divine life and glory. He became what we are, so as to make us what he is.

Paul expresses this metaphorically in terms of wealth and poverty: "You know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ: he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that through his poverty you might become rich" (2 Cor 8:9). Christ's riches are this eternal glory; Christ's poverty is his complete self-identification with our fallen human condition. In the words of an Orthodox Christian hymn, "Sharing wholly in our poverty, thou hast made divine our earthly nature through thy union with it and participation in it." Christ shares in our death, and we share in his life; he "empties himself" and we are "exalted" {Phil. 2:5-9} God's descent makes possible man's ascent. St. Maximus the Confessor writes: "Ineffably the infinite limits himself,while the finite is expanded to the measure of the infinite."

As Christ said at the Last Supper: "The glory which Thou hast given to me I have given to them, that they may be one, as we are one: I in them and thou in me, may they be perfectly united in one" (John 17:22-23). Christ enables us to share in the Father's divine glory. He is the bond and meeting-point: because he is man, he is one with us; because he is God, he is one with the Father. So through him we are one with God, and the Father's glory becomes our glory. God's Incarnation opens the way to man's deification. To be deified is, more specifically, to be "christified": the divine likeness that we are called to attain is the likeness of Christ. It is through Jesus the God-man that we men are "ingodded", "divinized", made "sharers in the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4). By assuming our humanity, Christ who is Son of God by nature has made us sons of God by grace. In him we are "adopted" by God the Father, becoming sons-in-the-Son.

This notion of salvation as sharing implies two things in particular about the Incarnation. First, it implies that Christ took not only a human body like outs but also a human spirit, mind, and soul like ours. Sin, as we saw (p.58), has its source not from below but from above; it is not physical in its origin but spiritual. The aspect of man, then, that requires to be redeemed is not primarily his body but his will and his center of moral choice. If Christ did not have a human mind, then this would fatally undermine the second principle of salvation, that divine salvation must reach the point of human need.

The importance of this principle was re-emphasized during the second half of the fourth century, when Apollinarius advanced the theory -- for which he was quickly condemned as a heretic -- that at the Incarnation Christ took only a human body, but no human intellect or rational soul. To this St. Gregory the Theologian replied, "The unassumed is unhealed". Christ, that is to say, saves us by becoming what we are: he heals us by taking our broken humanity into himself, by "assuming" it as his own, by entering into our human experience and by knowing it from the inside , as being himself one of us. But had his sharing of our humanity been in some way incomplete, then man's salvation would be likewise incomplete. If we believe that Christ has brought us a total salvation, then it follows that he has assumed everything.

Secondly, this notion of salvation as sharing implies -- although many have been reluctant to say this openly -- that Christ assumed not just unfallen human nature. As the Epistle to the Hebrews insists (and all the New Testament there is no Christological text more important than this): "We do not have a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but he was in all points tempted exactly as we are, yet without sinning" (4:15). Christ lives our his life on earth under the conditions of the fall, He is not himself a sinful person, bur in his solidarity with fallen man he accepts to the full the consequences of Adams's sin. He accepts to the full not only the physical consequences, such as weariness, bodily pain, and eventually the separation of body and soul in death. He accepts also the moral consequences, the loneliness, the alienation, the inward conflict. It may seem a bold thing to ascribe all this to the living God, but a consistent doctrine of the Incarnation requires nothing less. If Christ had merely assumed unfallen human nature, living our his early life in the situation of Adam in Paradise, then he would not have been touched by the feeling of our infirmities, nor would he have been tempted in everything exactly as we are. And in that case he would not be our Savior.

St. Paul does so far as to write, "God has made him who knew no sin to be sin for our sake" (2 Cor. 5:21). We are not to think here solely in terms of some juridical transaction, whereby Christ, himself guiltless, somehow has our guilt "imputed" to him in an exterior manner. Much more is involved that this. Christ saves us by experiencing from within, as one of us, all that we suffer inwardly through living in a sinful world..

(pp. 73-76, The Orthodox Way, Bishop Kallistos Ware, SVSP, 1979)


Remember, salvation as sharing is only one aspect. The other two Ware lists (solidarity and identification) treat the obedience, suffering, death and resurrection....

But this might provide a new set of eyes for reading some familiar passages, in a fresh way!!!

PotOnWheel

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 09/09/2001 12:23:02 AM
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