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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 9/4/2001 5:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | I wanted to inquire into the message behind the very popular book, The Prayer of Jabez. What does everyone think about this latest book that has swept across the country like a fire?
I read the book when it first came out. To be honest, I was very troubled by it's message. This book takes the prayer of Jabez and turns it into a model prayer. It's message is that if we mindlessly repeat it word-for-word for at least thirty days we will "unlock the door to spiritual blessings".
Not only that, but it portrays Christians as lacking blessing, or as in need of some type of blessing. It portrays us as standing at the edge of a river of blessing, only able to gain access to it by mindlessly repeating some obscure prayer word-for-word. The truth is we are NOT standing outside the river of God's blessing, we are already in the river of blessing. Eph. 1:3 states that we HAVE been blessed with EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING. We are not lacking in anything, and certainly not something that can only be given by repeating some prayer hidden in an obscure place in the Bible.
Nowhere in the NT are we told to repeat this prayer. We don't have any evidence that the disciples prayed this prayer every day. We don't even have evidence that Jabez himself prayed this prayer more than once. So if the author has somehow discoved a hidden key to unlocking God's blessing, he's the first one to have discovered it.
The message of this book is that the secret to Christianity needs to be sought out in obscure places of the Bible, not in the clear truths that have been laid out for all to see. The message of this book is one of dead legalism. The author has created some formula, that if carried out correctly will somehow FORCE God to bless us.
Not only does this book make a mockery of our relationship with God, but it takes away the true meaning of prayer. It reduces prayer to acting as a magic wand, rather than being part of a relationship with God. I am firmly against this book and what it teaches. Where does everyone else stand in regards to it?
In His Grip,
Matt
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28
Edited by - Triskal on 09/04/2001 11:00:19 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 9/4/2001 6:12 AM (GMT -6) | | I haven't read it yet, but the whole idea behind it sounds pretty simplistic and lacks the sophistication of the warfare worldview. I see a lot of people losing faith in God as a result of this books teaching. Somewhat like the "word-faith" teaching that has harmed the faith of so many over the past few decades.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/4/2001 5:51 PM (GMT -6) | | "Bless me abundantly"
The way that the book portrays the Prayer of Jabez perhaps could be viewed as being a tad bit legalistic. I personally have never been fond of the "name it and claim it" churches, BUT it does illustrate quite well what the bible instructs us to do as far as asking in prayer "Ask and you shall receive". We hear sermons preached about how God will bless you abundantly if you give... How you can't out give God... Isn't there somewhat of a correlation to those messages and this book in a way? I mean they both are teaching us about how God WANTS and DESIRES us to be blessed (in all ways not just materially).
"Increase my territory".
Ultimately, I believe God being our Heavenly Father, does want to see us fulfilled and blessed BUT there is a war going on which hinders some of the blessings that God wants for us to have. I really don't see anything wrong in praying a prayer asking the Lord to bless us especially if that blessing can ultimately be used to reap in more harvest for the Kingdom.
"Be with me always and keep me from evil"
It's vital to pray asking that the Lord be with us always and keep us from evil. Actually that's what Jesus taught us to pray in the Lord's prayer, "Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil."
There's always a fine line (balance) in EVERYTHING. I believe there are points in this book worth reflecting on, however it becomes corrupt and legalistic if we try to use some formula (even in the form of prayer) like a magic wand type thing. Doesn't it seem that Satan will do whatever he can to ruin a good thing!?!
What a fine line we walk on!
trosie
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 9/4/2001 6:49 PM (GMT -6) | | My battle is not with the prayer, but with the book. It teaches us to pray it WORD FOR WORD like some kind of spell. We are not told anywhere in the Bible to pray ANY prayer in that manner. We are not even told to repeat prayers from the Bible. You may say the Jesus told us to repeat the Lord's prayer. He didn't. He told us to pray in THAT WAY, not to pray THAT PRAYER over and over.
"Enlarge my borders and expand my territory."
I have a major problem with this part of the book. First of all, in the original prayer, Jabez was asking God to continue his family line and to increase the amount of land that he owned. What Bruce Wilkenson does is take that section of the prayer and somehow try and make it apply to today. Because he very well can't take a prayer that has things in it that don't apply to our current situations. So he therefor takes this part of the prayer and twists and turns it to mean asking God for inceased ministry opportunities. What kind of sick joke is that? Okay then, let's all go find some obscure verse in the OT, put a modern day twist on it, and write a best-selling book that claims it will unlock the door to spiritual blessings. Which brings up another question, why would God lock the door to spiritual blessings and only unlock it when he hears those secret words, i.e. the prayer of Jabez?
If the only thing we can pull out of this book is that it's good to ask God to bless us, then why do we need to repeat the prayer word for word? Why not just ask God for blessings in our own words? What about Christians in other countries who don't have this book? Are they unable to gain access to those spiritual blessings that can only be attained by using the magic words?
I've got major problems with this book and what it has done to the minds of Christians everywhere. Please, do not buy into this false message.
In His Grip,
Matt
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28
Edited by - Triskal on 09/04/2001 11:50:40 PM
Edited by - Triskal on 09/04/2001 11:51:19 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/4/2001 8:03 PM (GMT -6) | | "Please, do not buy into this false message."
Matt,
I am not sure who you were directing that statement to, if anyone in particular, but I can assure you I DO NOT buy into the belief that in order for God to bless me I must repeat the Prayer of Jabez word for word. This whole thing kind of reminds me of my Catholic days where we would repeat the rosary and do novenas(sp?) in order to receive a particular prayer request. I do know that some people find comfort in the repetition of prayers. I know for sure my grandma did --she read her prayer book faithfully and said her rosaries because it made her feel comforted... I can see where people also can get frustrated with the whole repition of a prayer word for word. What I DO NOT understand is how someone can loose their faith because they don't "feel" that God blessed them to their expectation? I see that type of faith as "performance based" Christianity.
Anyway, I am not compliant enough to recite a prayer simply because someone tells me to recite it in order to receive my blessings. Personally, I like communicating with God in my own words. I feel closer to God when I can communicate in an intimate and real way.
trosie 
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 9/5/2001 2:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Trosie,
I should have been a little more clear about that. The direction of my last message was to pretty much anyone who read it, not just to you. I'm glad that you are not buying in to the current prayer of Jabez fad. That makes one more person struggling against the legalistic trends that come and go in the American Church. God bless you!
In His Grip,
Matt
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28 | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/5/2001 6:14 AM (GMT -6) | | From my view, The Prayer of Jabez is simply another in a long line of simplistic ways for Christians to get around the hard work of living the Christian life. You want to learn to pray, pray. Two things were going for it: it was easy and the book was under ten dollars. For americans Christians, what could be better?
I am troubled by it only in the sense of how it looks in the long run, another fad to find an easy way to God. It reminds of Paul's remarks, "you should be eating meat..."
But I do see a positive lining...in five years all those books will make good paper to start fires...because like all fads soon and very soon there will be millions of Prayer of Jabez books that no one will want.
Its basically a Christian mantra...say this and God'll do it for you...John 17:3 Harold
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/5/2001 12:33 PM (GMT -6) | | And hasn't he (the author of The Prayer of Jabez) just published another little book? Anyone know what that one's about?
My 2 cents on this is that taking verses out of context is a big no-no. In the long run, it usually ends up burning people when things don't turn out as they thought they should. But unfortunately, so much popular Christian writing is based on this type of fluffy theology, from verses taken to make the point the author wants to make. There is a difference between EXEGESIS and HERMENEUTICS!!! A great book to read on this is How to Read the Bible for All it's Worth by Fee and Stuart.
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Every atom of carbon inside our bodies was once inside a star. We are all made from the ashes of dead stars.
John Polkinghorne | | Back to Top | | |
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TCTBU
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 42
| Posted 9/5/2001 1:56 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm glad this book has been brought up. I myself haven't had the chance to read it yet, but I have nevertheless heard much debate about it. I know people who are for it as well as against it. Naturally, since I haven't read the book, I have no legitimate claim to make an opinion, but from what I've heard, I am skeptical.
I'm afraid once again, I've entered under a subject that has passed, but I liked reading your opinions. Now I must read it myself and judge.
I have also seen in catelogs that there is a Prayer of Jabez for Teens and also one for Children. Kind of scary.
Hey, whasssuuuppp, (note how careful I was to spell your name correctly. ), I am going to risk sounding ignorant, but my age grants it. What is the difference between exegesis and hermeneutics? Please give me a definition in your own words, otherwise I could have just looked it up in the dictionary. =) Merci!
"Bad theology is the worst taskmaster of all." - Martin Luther | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/5/2001 3:51 PM (GMT -6) | | I KNOW SOMEONE ALMOST 80 AND ANOTHER 75 WHO LOVED THE BOOK. CHRISTIANITY TODAY HAD SOME CAREFUL AND QUITE CRITICAL EXAMINATIONS OF IT. MAYBE THAT MEANS, IN FOOD-TALK, THAT IT IS HIGH IN FIBER, LOW IN VITAMINS. BUT IT CAN BE PART OF A COMPLETE DIET?
I'M VERY GENTLE ON THOSE WHO HAVE FOUND IT A KIND OF CENTERPIECE, ESPECIALLY FOR SHARING WITH OTHERS. CAN I ADMIT THAT SIMPLE SOMETIMES IS BETTER. SOUP STOCK. THEN COMES THE CREATIVITY, THE COLLABORATION, THE WAITING, AND THE SAYING OF "GRACE."
I LOVE THOSE TWO!
PotOnWheel
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 9/5/2001 5:19 PM (GMT -6) | | TCTBU said:
quote:
I have also seen in catelogs that there is a Prayer of Jabez for Teens and also one for Children. Kind of scary.
And do you know what the little hook that they through in for the teen edition is? That "now teens can enjoy God's wonderful blessings". As if in the past teens were not able to be blessed by God, and that only this book will allow that to happen. You are very correct in saying that yes, it's pretty scary.
In His Grip,
Matt
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28 | | Back to Top | | |
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TCTBU
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Total Posts : 42
| Posted 9/5/2001 5:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Ah, at last someone has acknowledged me.  hehe, I love you guys.
Yeah, I thought it was kind of pathetic. Yet, I still think I need to read it to find out what all the buzz is about.
I heard that the author didn't intend for it to make this big of an impression. Has anyone else heard that?
"Bad theology is the worst taskmaster of all." - Martin Luther | | Back to Top | | |
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 9/5/2001 5:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Ah, at last someone has acknowledged me. hehe, I love you guys.
Yeah, I thought it was kind of pathetic. Yet, I still think I need to read it to find out what all the buzz is about.
I heard that the author didn't intend for it to make this big of an impression. Has anyone else heard that?
"Bad theology is the worst taskmaster of all." - Martin Luther
Well, I did attend a conference that the author spoke at. From what I know, he has been pleased with it's success. I'm not sure if he intended for it to become this big of a fad, but he's definately pleased with it.
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28 | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/5/2001 7:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Wilkerson's new book is "Secrets of The Vine," which is basically on John 15. Both books are less than a hundred pages. But I would ask: are the same people who rave over this book excited about reading their Bible? And one should recognize that there is a reason that it called the prayer of Jabez. because it was Jabez's prayer. Not mine or yours.
At last count at our bookstore there was a Prayer of Jabez:
bible cover
pen
tie
tie clip
pin
assorted coffee cups
t-shirts
posters
pictures
CD
study guide
leader guide
teen book
child book
coffee table book
leather bond book
journal and, my favorite
silver medal for around the neck. And the hits just keep coming...
I will keep you posted if anything else comes my way. John 17:3 Harold
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 9/6/2001 2:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
At last count at our bookstore there was a Prayer of Jabez:
... long list of stuff ...
Buuuurrrrrrpppppppppp. I feel better now.
Someone once asked me why I didn't have a Jesus ( of some sort ) bumper sticker on my car. Used to, it read "God Created Atheists Too" .
From a song I always thought of as a fight song...
"So I got me a pen and a paper,
And I made up my own little sign
Thank you Lord, For thinking about me
Im alive and doing fine.
Signs Signs Everywhere Signs
Blocking out the Scenery Breaking my Mind
Do this Don't do That
Cant you read the Signs? "
don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? " | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/6/2001 5:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hey, whasssuuuppp, (note how careful I was to spell your name correctly.), I am going to risk sounding ignorant, but my age grants it. What is the difference between exegesis and hermeneutics? Please give me a definition in your own words, otherwise I could have just looked it up in the dictionary. =) Merci!
Hey TCTBU,
Very legitimate questions, doesn't matter how old you are. I need to go to class, so here's my 1-sentence definitions:
Exegesis: discovering the MEANING of a text, the author's original intent in writing the words.
Hermeneutics: discovering the SIGNIFICANCE of the text, in other words, how we can apply the text in the here and now.
Again, I highly recommend Fee and Stuart's How to Read the Bible For all it's Worth. It's very good, talks all about the different genres present in the Bible and how to interpret them.
btw, do you speak French? And thanks for spelling my name right!
******************************
Every atom of carbon inside our bodies was once inside a star. We are all made from the ashes of dead stars.
John Polkinghorne | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/6/2001 5:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Might-be-don:From a song I always thought as a fight song...
So I got me a pen and a paper,
And I made up my own little sign
Thank you Lord, For thinking about me
Im alive and doing fine.
Signs Signs Everywhere Signs
Blocking out the Scenery Breaking my Mind
Do this Don't do That
Cant you read the Signs? "
I too always thought of this song as a fight song. I appreciated the self-determined, fighting, independent attitude that this song allowed -- does that make sense?
ANYWAY, I believe that we as God's created beings need to have our own identities (independence) which includes how we communicate with Christ. However, if this type of prayer, The Prayer of Jabez, gets a person to focus up to God then it isn't as bad as some people want to say it is -- IS IT? It could perhaps be a starting point for some to start communicating with God. My first communication (prayer time) with God was repitious prayers which was a means for me to begin communicating.
I think EVERYTHING in balance
trosie
Edited by - trosie on 09/06/2001 10:18:24 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 9/6/2001 5:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It could perhaps be a starting point for some to start communicating with God. My first communication (prayer time) with God was repitious prayers which was a means for me to begin communicating.
trosie, you may be right... but, quite often your first encounters become the pattern for those to follow. Far to many never progress beyond this milk. It has always saddened me when a visiting preacher comes to church and preaches this "glorious" sermon that is nothing but baby food , and the folks applaud it as a fantastic word from the Lord. When I point this out they look at me like I'm an alien. God help us!
The image that came to mind is the Simpson's little baby girl sucking on her pacifier.
don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "
Edited by - might-be-don on 09/06/2001 12:36:35 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 9/6/2001 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The Prayer of Jabez, gets a person to focus up to God then it isn't as bad as some people want to say it is -- IS IT?
No, I suppose that would not be bad. But is that why the author wrote the book? I would definately say no. In the book he describes how he has been praying this prayer WORD FOR WORD FOR 30 YEARS! That does NOT sound like something to get you started in prayer. He encourages us to do the same thing he has been doing. You are obviously very discerning, in that you can figure out the good and bad parts of this book. My concern is for those who do not have the level of discernment you have. Perhaps those who are new in their walk with the Lord, or haven't even started. Most likely they will read this book and come away thinking not one bad thought about it. We need to be spreading a message of TRUTH to this world, especially when there are so many false teachings being thrown around. You know things are in a sad state when Christians actually have to speak up against OTHER CHRISTIANS, such as Bruce Wilkenson (the author of this book).
In His Grip,
Matt
Edited by - Triskal on 09/06/2001 2:59:23 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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TCTBU
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 42
| Posted 9/6/2001 11:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks so much for the definitions. Perhaps I'll remember them more easily than if I had looked them up. Usually I end up looking these words over two or three times before it actually clicks. As a preview warning for anyone, don't be surprised if I ask you to define some words you use. It's kind of a character trait of mine, if I don't know a word I have to find out, somehow, what it means.
whasssuuuppp: "btw, do you speak French?"
Not technically. I'm a French speaking wannabe and I have been to France, but no. My mom teaches French, however, she doesn't teach my school and my school has the lack of taste and etiquette so as to not offer French. (also the lack of a teacher may have something to do w/ it.) I attempted to teach myself French this summer, but it's gone pathetically by the wayside. But, to sum it up, I don't really speak French, but I have the means of learning.
Btw, could someone tell me how on earth to do this quoting business? (When I press preview all it does is show, "quote".) *confused*
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TCTBU
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Total Posts : 42
| Posted 9/6/2001 12:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Oh, I was gonna say. I found out that we do have How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth. I guess I should get to that.
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whasssuuuppp
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Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/6/2001 3:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey TCTBU,
Definitely read the book. And let me know what you think. You'll learn more about exegesis and hermeneutics than you ever wanted to know.
To do quotes, look along the top of the "reply" box when you're posting a reply. It is the little icon with the piece of paper and the red arrow. Click on this box and it will give you something that looks like this: (quote) (/quote)--except that it doesn't use these nice round parentheses, it uses the ones that are a little more square. I'd show you here, but you know if I wrote it out, it wouldn't stay that way--it would just give me a quote! So you just put your quote (or cut and paste from another person's post) inside those two things, and it comes up as a quote when you post. If you get it wrong on the first try, you can always go back and edit it.
***************************
Every atom of carbon inside our bodies was once inside a star. We are all made from the ashes of dead stars.
John Polkinghorne | | Back to Top | | |
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TCTBU
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 42
| Posted 9/6/2001 3:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So you just put your quote (or cut and paste from another person's post) inside those two things, and it comes up as a quote when you post. If you get it wrong on the first try, you can always go back and edit it.
Me thinks it worked.
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 9/6/2001 3:49 PM (GMT -6) | | Welcome to the cite TCTBU. Sorry if you initially felt neglected. It happens.
I have not read either The Prayer of Jabez or the sequel. I have significant concerns about both, however.
1) Where intended or not, they promote magical formulaic spirituality. It's a protestant version of the rosary.
2) Last week I spoke with a woman whose husband is dying of cancer. She has been twice "slimed" by people who espouse the theology of the sequel -- which, apparently, is that all suffering is to be explained either as God's loving discipline, or as punishment. I find Jesus telling suffering people this theology all over the place in the Gospels. NOT. He rebuked it as a direct or indirect result of warfare, and he treated the hurting people like victims of war!
3) I heard the author of these books relay a story to James Dobson about the effect of the Jabez prayer. Through his own responsibility he was late for a plane. He asked God to delay the plane. What do you know, he got to the airport, and while there were 300 other disgruntled passagers, the plain was delayed two hours because of mechanical problems. Praise God. Parents missed their kids soccer games, business appointments, job opportunities, wedding rehersals, and who knows what else, all so this man wouldn't have to suffer from his own irresponsibility. And forget the fact that the mechanical problems were found before he ever overslept! (But of course, God foreknew he'd do this and foreknew he'd pray the prayer, so he caused the plane to have mechanical problems [????] ahead of time!). Magical thinking.
There's my take. The power of prayer flows out of a relationship with Christ, not a formula.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 9/6/2001 5:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The power of prayer flows out of a relationship with Christ, not a formula.
AMEN DOC!! Thank you for putting into words what i've been trying to since I started this thread. Hahha i'm horrible at typing what i'm feeling or thinking. I usually get it all in my mind and have it ready, but when I go to type it just vanishes like... dare I say... magic? Haha! God bless you Doc!
In His Grip,
Matt
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28
Edited by - Triskal on 09/06/2001 10:31:17 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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