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You said I don't worry about the structures because they benefit me. You know what? I agree.
I love this country. I am grateful to God that I benefit from this country. I am grateful that I was born here, that my kids live here and that such a gracious God exists that put me in such a wonderful, truly blessed country.

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PRAY and if you can GIVE BLOOD!
Trosie

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I wish i could give blood. i've had malaria twice not being able to help out is one of the bummers of getting it.

Writerdad, This was how i read Cibertus' statements:

I was a little put off by the title of the post but what i saw him saying was that we do not have to live with the underbelly of American policies. What we call "blessings" are really the spoils of a quite and very violent war, an economic slavery that keeps millions in poverty, or sweatshops, or what boils down to a form of slavery. We tolerate genocides in Bosnia because Bosnia doesn't have an oil. And we keep ourselves isolated from these realities to enjoy our "blessings."

Someone this morning said a very honest and angry thing to me. She said she new something like this was coming eventually. She said, "How long can people put up with the sh** America dumps on them before they start to fight back?" I think she had a point and i think Cibertus was making a similar one (correct me if i'm wrong Cibertus).

The way i see it is like this. There are two plains of justice, our own finite ideas of justice and God's infinite, all knowing kind. In the mind of whoever did this they were "seeking out whoever was resposible for [their] tragity and making them pay a heavy price." Which is exactly the same words that we are using now. We feel wronged and rightly so. What we don't ever ask is if others feel wronged by us and if they should feel right to feel this way. Our standards of justice operate the same way that theirs do. We have 'illegal' violence like bombing the trade center, and then there is 'legal' violence like, for example, bombing the inocent children in Hiroshema. We assume that when we do it we are doing so out of righeous anger. I suspect that whoever bombed the trade center and pentagon today felt the same way.

We cannot justify ourselves, right? this is one of our doctrines as Christians. We are hypocrites when we label our attacks on third world contries as legal and their on us as illegal. we are self-righeous pharisitical snots. and our loses still hurt, unspeakably so, and so do the loses we impose on others.

How do we couragously give and accept grace? How do we break the cycle of restitiution?
How do we forgive without belittling the loses all around?
Yesterday i was so glad to be alive-today is so different.

i think im going to go grieve by reading St. Annie Dillard's "Holy the Firm" the most artful Christian theodicy i've ever encountered, and another attempt at grappling with the evil of plain crashes. We are mourning all the Julie Norwich's of the world today, and today also, like yesterday, was a god.

"Every day is a god, each day is a god, and holiness holds forth in time..."

there is nothing new under the sun.

-Wislawa

for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].

Canticles 8:6

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I already see my world as a catastrophe. So what’s the difference when you start seeing it on the news.....

The truth is out...The symbols of our wealth and power and security have gone POOF.


Cibertus

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Cibertus, as to your statement "what's the difference when you start seeing it on the news.."
The difference perhaps, is that it is NOT all about how YOU see it.

As to the "power, wealth..." comments, um I still have ALL of my "symbols of wealth" ie. the dollar! While this senseless act DID NOT REMOVE THE SYMBOLS of POWER OR WEALTH, but human lives, souls, mommies and daddies.

And on the "Truth is out" comment, His name is Jesus Christ.

I must have posted at the same time you did on the last post....or I would have added "my heart pours out to you too cibertus."
(I am wondering if you would have posted the same messages if it were YOUR loved ones who were killed??)

Proverbs23




Wislawa, I share in your feelings and I just find you precious...


Edited by - Proverbs23_23 on 09/11/2001 5:21:38 PM

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For those offended by the title of this post. This is what the long form would have looked like.

_____________________________________________

Dearest U.S.

Here's to your power, security, and wealth.

Thank you,
Terrorist

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Cibertus, are you trying to reassure or provoke people who are offended by the title of this thread? It seems like you are trying to be funny or make some kind of political comment. I don’t get it.

Whatever your point is, I wish you would wait until the dust settles or frame it a little more sensitively for people who are distracted by the instantaneous destruction of thousands of lives and the imminant threat to who knows how many more. pia

“An exploration of reality is no place to lose touch with reality.” — Magneton

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Cibertus, as to your statement "what's the difference when you start seeing it on the news.."
The difference perhaps, is that it is NOT all about how YOU see it.

As to the "power, wealth..." comments, UM I STILL have ALL my wealth and my "symbols of wealth" ie. the dollar! While this senseless act DID NOT REMOVE THE SYMBOLS of POWER OR WEALTH, but human lives, souls, mommies and daddies.

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As to the "power, wealth..." comments, um I still have ALL of my "symbols of wealth" ie. the dollar! While this senseless act DID NOT REMOVE THE SYMBOLS of POWER OR WEALTH, but human lives, souls, mommies and daddies.

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Dearest U.S. Here's to your power, security, and wealth. Thank you, Terrorist

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i think im going to go grieve by reading St. Annie Dillard's "Holy the Firm" the most artful Christian theodicy i've ever encountered, and another attempt at grappling with the evil of plain crashes.

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Faith: "it seems too early to discuss things like some of what's being said."

Doc: I'm in agreement. The theoretical is always one step removed from the concrete, and in a moment like this, its all important to remain in the concrete.

LOOK at the faces and LISTEN to the stories of those in the nightmare. ENTER INTO their reality. Don't let the pain of it -- or words or ideas about it -- deflect you. Only then can we pray and mourn as we ought, and be fully humane and goddly in our subsequent reflections.

Greg

Absolutely, I remember the story of Zosia in your book, God at War,(italics function not working). Roughly 5000 Zosias cried out to heaven Tuesday morning. I was somewhat able to enter into the pain of those who lost friends and family members due to my own recent, tragic losses. On February 27, 2001 I watched one of my best friends die of sepsis. She was 37 years old with two boys and pregnant with the third. Just 3 months later to the day, I lost my infant son, Luke, only two days after birth due to complications from Down's Syndrome. I share these losses not to focus on myself, but to make the point that my empathy for those in NY and DC is heightened, even though I still cannot fully comprehend what they must be feeling. Nonetheless, I am on circuit overload.



"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

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Faith: "it seems too early to discuss things like some of what's being said."

Doc: I'm in agreement. The theoretical is always one step removed from the concrete, and in a moment like this, its all important to remain in the concrete.

LOOK at the faces and LISTEN to the stories of those in the nightmare. ENTER INTO their reality. Don't let the pain of it -- or words or ideas about it -- deflect you. Only then can we pray and mourn as we ought, and be fully humane and goddly in our subsequent reflections.

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