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GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 9/15/2001 10:40 AM (GMT -6)

I heard this said by a woman interviewed on NBC news:

"Pray? Who should we pray to? Who? God? God took took all these wonderful people! I just have no hope."

At times like this, I believe it is SO important to be able to articulate why and how it is that GOD IS NOT BEHIND EVERYTHING! This woman expresses why.

Comments?

A still quite numb
Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Proverbs23_23
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 14

Posted 9/15/2001 11:05 AM (GMT -6)

completely, totally, and 100% agreed.
In times like this, if someone can share Gods true character, will, desire, and attributes through words, testimony, and love. That one little person can bring clarity to the woman's view of God. And that same woman could receive LIFE, HOPE, and a peace that passes all understanding. To me, it is worth the time and effort.

churchmouse522
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163

Posted 9/15/2001 11:35 AM (GMT -6)

How sad.

This has not been an assault on America. It has been an assault on faith and the character of God. I pray that the heart of God can be made plain through this tragedy and we can all minister the love of Christ to one another.

Mouse

"If we agree to search for Truth, we do violence to that search any time we silence a voice." Modes of Thought

Lee Merrill
booted

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723

Posted 9/15/2001 3:44 PM (GMT -6)

When I see evil and injustice, I try to remember that God also bears the pain that people suffer. If I instead think of God as impassive, outside of peoples' pain, sending troubles, that to me is intolerable.

But to see God with people, suffering with him, that I can bear. In fact, he is already there, our suffering brings us to him...

HEB 13:13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp...

All go to God in their distress,
seek help and pray for bread and favor,
deliverance from pain, guilt and death.
All do, saints and sinners.

All go to God in His distress,
find him poor, reviled without shelter or bread,
watch him tormented by sin, weakness and death.
Christians stand by God in his agony.

God goes to all in their distress,
satisfies body and soul with His bread,
dies, crucified for all, saints and sinners
and both alike forgiving.

- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

And I believe that there is an answer to all our questions of "Why?"...

"There will come one day a personal and direct touch from God when every tear and perplexity, every oppression and distress, every suffering and pain, and wrong and injustice will have a complete and ample and overwhelming explanation." (Oswald Chambers)

God bless you,
Lee

==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

Edited by - Lee Merrill on 09/15/2001 9:26:52 PM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 9/15/2001 5:09 PM (GMT -6)

This is basically off-topic by virtue of being ART rather than theology. It is interesting how poetry is very right for a week like this.

===============================================================
Poem on NPR

by Dylan Thomas:

AND DEATH SHALL HAVE NO DOMINION.

Dead mean naked they shall be one
With the man in the wind and the west moon;
When their bones are picked clean and the clen bones gone,
They shall have stars at elbow and foot;
Though they go mad they shall be sane,
Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again;
Though lovers be lost love shall not;
And death shall have no dominion.

And death shall have no dominion.
Under the windings of the sea
They lying long shall not die windily;
Twisting on racks when sinews give way,
Strapped to a wheel, yet they shall not break;
Faith in their hands shall snap in two,
And the unicorn evils run them through;
Split all ends up they shan't crack;
And death shall have no dominion.

And death shall have no dominion.
No more may gulls cry at their ears
Or waves break loud on the seashores;
Where blew a flower may a flower no more
Lift its head to the blows of the rain;
Through they be mad and dead as nails,
Heads of the characters hammer through daisies;
Break in the sun till the sun breaks down,
And death shall have no dominion.

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 09/15/2001 10:12:05 PM

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 9/15/2001 7:00 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
"Pray? Who should we pray to? Who? God? God took took all these wonderful people! I just have no hope."

Doc, I guess this is the effect that "poor" theology has on how many people view God. I thank God that I read your book God of the Possible because otherwise I may have been saying similar words that this woman spoke obviously out of anger... I guess this shows us how much we need to be working in reviving and changing the way people view God. It's a tragedy upon a tragedy when a person believes that this was indirectly the act of God for some "greater good"...

trosie

Edited by - trosie on 09/16/2001 12:01:36 AM

MrIndifference
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144

Posted 9/15/2001 8:24 PM (GMT -6)

Confession time...

There are times when I am reading some of the posts on this site and others like it, that the things that are said seem to be nothing but intellectual masturbation. Then I run across a thread like this one and it reminds me of why we are here in the first place. Thank you for the reminder and God bless you all.

Mr I.

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 9/15/2001 8:50 PM (GMT -6)

Trosie, yes, the blueprint worldview has many victims. The security it provides some is purchased at the torment it exacts from others.

Here's part of Chuck Swindol's response to this catastrophy.

"As the sovereign ruler of the universe, God decrees and determines everything that happens in this world. This I sometimes call the "decretive" or "determined" will of God. God is at the helm of His creation... "

"This, too, is a mystery. How can the hands of a loving God chart a course for us that includes pain and calamity. It is incomprehensible. Yet, if it were not so, God would not be God. He would be some benevolent but powerless man who sits in heaven wriging His hands in fear that an unexpected tragedy might spoil His plan for our pleasure and comfort. No, if God is truly God, He is sovereign. And as Sovereign, His will encompasses whatever occurs..."

" [His will] never contradicts His holiness, justice, righeousness, and goodness. This...point is particularly calming during rough seas, as we are experiencing now in the aftermath of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attackes. Since God is good, His plan ultimately leads toward good ends."

Four points:

1) Note the utterly false dichotomy: either God is all determinative, OR he is a benevolent but powerless man in heaven wringing his hands worried that something will spoil his plans. If he doesn't control everything, HE IS NOT GOD.

AS THOUGH God were not smart enough to perfectly anticipate POSSIBILITIES! I submit that the weak "man in heaven" is Swindols picture of God, for he needs to control things in order to work them for the better. If he's faced with any open possibilities, he wrings his hands in worry. A truly sovereign God, I submit, has no such human limitations. We humans loose confidence the more possibilities we have to attend to, for we have to spread our intelligence thin to contemplate them. Hence we are less confidence when we have to entertain five possible scenarios than we are if we only have one certain scenario to attend to. BUT GOD IS NOT A FINITE HUMNAN BEING.

God is so smart he doesn't have to "spread thin" his attention when considering possibilities. He can attend to each of a trillion possibilities as though each were a certainty. Every possible scenario is, from all eternity, attended to and anticipated with the same perfection it would receive IF IT WERE THE ONLY POSSIBILITY (viz. a foreordained certainty). This event did not need to happen, but from all eternity God has been anticipating it as though it were a certainty, and he is perfectly prepared for it. Swindol can't envisage such infinite intelligence, so he projects his human limitation on God and supposes that if God entertains possibilities he must be wringing his hands in worry.

2) Note the contradiction: God's will never contradicts his holiness -- yet here it includes the diabolical evil of terrorists slaughtering thousands of civilians. If this doesn't "contradict God's holiness," what would contradict it? And if nothing could contradict God's holiness, the word "holiness" in this statement is devoid of meaning. To say "God acts consistent with his holiness" is simply to say "God acts" -- even if its evil.

3) The comfort Swindol says this view brings is utterly beyond me. Believing that God was behind this, and every, act of terror and evil makes me shutter. What comfort in knowing that vibration of a child's vocal chord as she screams in terror is precisely how God ordained it from the foundation of the world! Every movement of the terrorist is just right: every brick that crushed a persons skull: every slash of the terrorists knife: every splat of blood was perfectly orchestrated: every movement and every terrorized thought of the people who jumped to their deaths -- it was all as God pre-scripted it from before the beginning of creation.

The council that he has good intentions in ordaining such nightmarish details doesn't comfort me in the least. For if this is in any sense "good," I've lost the distinction between good and evil. I'm sure from his own perspective and criteria, Satan would say the terrorist bombing was "good." In Swindols' assessment, Satan and God agree (on EVERY POINT).

In any event, such council "in rough seas" doesn't lead people like the woman whose quote started this thread any comfort. It rather causes their disbelief. And, frankly, I find it hard to blame her. Which leads to my fourth point.

4. "Pray? Who do we pray to? God? God took the lives of all these wonderful people."

So what are we doing when we pray? Are we simply saying, "God, will you knock it off? Give us a break!" We can't even pray these pathetic prayers, because its all already ordained. So maybe we're praying, "we sure hope you haven't ordained more &^%! to come our way"?

Noone prays this way. We pray as if some matters we're still open, and as though our prayers mattered (=made a difference). What the blueprint view does is simply stipulate that the "as if" is only an "as if." Lets pretend that things could be different, and what we do mattered. But some insightful people -- like the woman with the opening quote -- call the bluff.

I'm ticked.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 9/16/2001 12:44 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Doc: I'm ticked

SO AM I!

I say AMEN! to your four points, Doc. How sad to say to the world that this tragic event was God's "perfect" plan, or to say this was God's way of punishing us. No wonder there are so many people in the world who are atheists and agnostics. I can't really blame them if this is their only understanding of God. We need to set the record straight about the LOVING, FORGIVING, CARING... character of God because I think it is SO SAD that many are fed distorted views of who God is!

trosie

Edited by - trosie on 09/16/2001 05:45:51 AM

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 9/16/2001 4:34 AM (GMT -6)

Some thoughts.

First of all, I reiterate my strong conviction that their truly IS no adequate theodicy. Remember how we've said that for any given horrendous evil, in the end, either God COULD NOT or WOULD NOT alter certain evils. Surely everyone can see that NEITHER are very good options. Moreover, they really don't make a whit of difference in the existential moment of pain in one sense. Just like some people like the comfort that the "blueprint" idea gives them (that all evil things truly do work out for some type of good), others find comfort that God had little to nothing to do with the event and that God is "just as sorry" as we are that this happened. But when closely analyzed and thought out (which almost never happens in the existential moment of pain), both perspectives give certain overtones that could very well offset the comfort of both! We've all here seen this over and over. Wislawa said long ago that the only true theodicy is the IMMEDIATE faithful amelioration of suffering and demonstration of divine love and grace to others in the existential moment of pain. (Something even atheists can do, by the way) And I firmly agree with him. The sight of warm hearts praying for others, heroic men and women risking their lives for others, and boundaries being transcended for the sake of all that is good and right in God's world is ALL the theodicy we need.

Second, I would hope that we could lighten up a little on the "blueprint" model. I hope that everyone got a chance to see Billy Graham's sermon at the National Cathedral in the ecumenical prayer service. I thought that he did a great job addressing the problem of evil. Basically he held the two premises of divine sovereignty and human freedom in dynamic tension while acknowledging the mystery. It was quite obvious that he held to the more classical view of God, but the way that he articulated himself on the subject, I felt, did justice to what people were feeling. Sure, philosophically minded theologians could ask more questions...but at that time, who really WANTED to be a philosophically minded theologian? People wanted comfort. People wanted to know that there was hope. And people wanted to be assured of God's love. Dr. Graham did that by emphasizing the hope of heaven and the love of Christ. What I'm trying to show is that people who hold to the "blueprint" model can still give a significant amount of comfort and pastoral care, illustrating the love of Christ. So, let's think about that.

Along these same lines, I would submit, Doc, that some people can find much confort in the "blueprint" model. Someone once said that people often can accept almost ANY atrocity as long as their was REASON. Some people cannot stand meaninglessness evil...which we both know is what defines gratuitous evil. Some people can accept God knowing and ordaining painful things because they know that God must have had a very good REASON for doing it. And for those people, the blueprint model fits the bill. Moreover, the more thoughtful blueprint people realize that what matters in these times is NOT trying to necessarily ascertain what happened, but to remain steadfast and faithful in Christlike manner during these times. This is just to show how I think "blueprint" believers can indeed find solace in their worldview.

Next, you say:

quote:
Note the contradiction: God's will never contradicts his holiness -- yet here it includes the diabolical evil of terrorists slaughtering thousands of civilians. If this doesn't "contradict God's holiness," what would contradict it? And if nothing could contradict God's holiness, the word "holiness" in this statement is devoid of meaning. To say "God acts consistent with his holiness" is simply to say "God acts" -- even if its evil.

May I remind you of certain Old Testament occasions when God did use rather nasty characters AGAINST his own people for certain reasons. I believe that this was actually the main problem that Habakkuk in particular had. We have ample precedent to say that it is not outside of God's MO to use evil characters and their evil deeds for his own purposes. Moreover, we should be careful not to say what we "definitely" know is of God and what is not of God...especially when we are talking about historical events. None of us are omniscient and unless God directly speaks to us by His Spirit (which we STILL often mess up) open view theists have absolutely NO GROUNDS upon which to categorically say that God didn't have any hand in this. I think we all know that, as I have brought this point out numerous times. This is why I think that Dr. Graham's approach was so insightful. He didn't so much try to interpret what had happened as much as he tried to show what our RESPONSE should be. A wise decision, IMHO.

Finally, Doc said:

quote:
So what are we doing when we pray? Are we simply saying, "God, will you knock it off? Give us a break!" We can't even pray these pathetic prayers, because its all already ordained. So maybe we're praying, "we sure hope you haven't ordained more &^%! to come our way"?

Noone prays this way. We pray as if some matters we're still open, and as though our prayers mattered (=made a difference). What the blueprint view does is simply stipulate that the "as if" is only an "as if." Lets pretend that things could be different, and what we do mattered. But some insightful people -- like the woman with the opening quote -- call the bluff.

In my prayer that I placed on another thread, I made the statement "Lord, please have mercy." and other things. I submit that even a blueprint believer could have prayed my prayer and felt my sorrow for what happened. Being quite honest, I prayed that prayer pretty much with the basic mindset. I have shown time and again how having a blueprint theology doesn't entail the uselessness of petitionary prayer...nor it's sincerity.

Doc, I believe that I can understand your frustration because I somewhat understand your point of view. And that point of view is valid for you. However, I would ask that you would not be so quick to write of the blueprint theology as being just so problematic. Especially in times like this. I think that you know that there are many holes in BOTH ideas when we take the thinking all the way out as you and I have. Moreover, just as you heard some people be ultimately frustrated with the blueprint model, I've heard other people be ultimately comforted with it. As such, we should also be aware that, generally speaking, in the immediate moments of such horror and chaos like this, discussions like this are almost certainly irrelevant. (I think we both well know this) What matters is the immediate sharing of divine and ACTIVE love, hope and empathy which ALL parties can agree upon.

Again, God help us all. Saints, continue to pray and do all that you can in this time of dire need. Let our actions speak far louder than our words.

PS: I figured that I would post these things. All of these links are from Rev. John Piper's "Desiring God" website:

Audio of John Piper Radio Interview Regarding WTC Tragedy

How Shall We Minister to People After the World Trade Tower Terrorism?

Two Ways to Respond to Suffering

You may not agree with everything said, but it is another perspective.

I Corinthians 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Edited by - Mephi2K on 09/16/2001 09:41:13 AM

Lee Merrill
booted

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723

Posted 9/16/2001 5:40 AM (GMT -6)

Yes, whatever view we have on God's control, we can know that God is greater than any evil in the world, that is the message of the cross.

JN 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

JN 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you."

God bless you,
Lee

==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

Bob Hill
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98

Posted 9/16/2001 8:22 PM (GMT -6)

This has been a long week, filled with grief and emotional pain. I was surprised to read a Psalm that kind of describes this horrific event from David’s viewpoint.

Psalm 55 A Contemplation of David. 1 Give ear to my prayer, O God, and do not hide Yourself from my supplication. 2 Attend to me, and hear me; I am restless in my complaint, and moan noisily, 3 Because of the voice of the enemy, because of the oppression of the wicked; For they bring down trouble upon me, and in wrath they hate me. 4 My heart is severely pained within me, and the terrors of death have fallen upon me. 5 Fearfulness and trembling have come upon me, and horror has overwhelmed me.

Islamic fundamentalists lived among Americans, went to school with them and sent their children to school with American children. They were thought of as neat people, but the description of them, now, has a dreadful quality, in which they take on the nature of demons and the frightful reality of the terrors of the death they inflicted on innocent people for Allah.

I didn’t realize the treaty was over, but according to Koran, Sura 9:5, after a treaty is over, it says, “And when the months wherein you are not allowed to attack them shall be past, kill the idolaters wheresoever ye shall find them, and take them prisoners, and besiege them, and lay wait for them in every convenient place But if they shall repent, and observe the appointed times of prayer, and pay the legal alms, dismiss them freely”.

David continued 6 So I said, “Oh, that I had wings like a dove! I would fly away and be at rest. 7 Indeed, I would wander far off, and remain in the wilderness. 8 I would hasten my escape from the windy storm and tempest.”

I’m sure those of New York would see that a simple place in the wilderness would be a place of rest from the raging destruction of the city.

9 Destroy, O Lord, and divide their tongues, for I have seen violence and strife in the city.

How many New Yorkers wish their families had left the city!

10 Day and night they go around it on its walls; Iniquity and trouble are also in the midst of it. 11 Destruction is in its midst; Oppression and deceit do not depart from its streets. 12 For it is not an enemy who reproaches me; Then I could bear it. Nor is it one who hates me who has exalted himself against me; Then I could hide from him. 13 But it was you, a man my equal, my companion and my acquaintance. 14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked to the house of God in the throng. 15 Let death seize them; Let them go down alive into hell, for wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.

This Psalm is one of David’s imprecatory Psalms. We could utter the same things.

16 As for me, I will call upon God, and the Lord shall save me. 17 Evening and morning and at noon I will pray, and cry aloud, and He shall hear my voice. 18 He has redeemed my soul in peace from the battle that was against me, For there were many against me. 19 God will hear, and afflict them, even He who abides from of old. Selah. Because they do not change, therefore they do not fear God.

These enemies against God in David’s time are similar to the ones who hate our God today.

20 He has put forth his hands against those who were at peace with him; He has broken his word (berith). 21 The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart; His words were softer than oil, yet they were drawn swords.

For us, the faces of murderers hid themselves behind masks of friendly words as they went to US schools to learn how to fly these airplanes.

22 Cast your burden on the Lord, and He shall sustain you; He shall never permit the righteous to be moved. 23 But You, O God, shall bring them down to the pit of destruction; Bloodthirsty and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; But I will trust in You.

This has been a depressing week for me, but how wonderful to know that Zosia and the Twin Towers were not our God’s doing.

It’s also comforting to me to know, when Christ was on earth, He called all those who were depressed.
Mat 11:28-30 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Paul was depressed when he had a thorn in his flesh. He prayed to God to remove it. God could have removed it, just as He could cause the world to be totally good, but, as you know, then there would be no responsibility on man’s part. In Paul’s case, God told him that His grace would be sufficient for him.

2 Co 12:9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I must admit that I got depressed by watching the devastation over and over. But, by basking in God’s love, He has soothed the ache in my sould.

Ps 42:11 Why are you cast down, O my soul? And why are you disquieted within me? Hope in God; For I shall yet praise Him, the help of my countenance and my God.

Indeed, there is a precious portion of Scripture for all of us who have given our lives to Christ.
2 Co 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. 6 Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

But I believe there is something else that we must consider. What are we going to do? People are hurting. People need the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.
John 4:34,35 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work. 35 Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!”

I believe that the fields are especially white for harvest at this time. People need the Lord, and God wants us to be ambassadors.
2 Co 5:14-6:3 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

Will we be ambassadors for Christ?

Those Muslims who are not fundamentalists may be more willing to listen to the gospel of the grace of God. They need the love of Christ and may be more open to believing and receiving Jesus Christ as their Savior in this time of crisis than ever before.

Let’s be more aware of our opportunities to show God’s love to them.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 9/16/2001 10:15 PM (GMT -6)

Hi all-

A friend recently forwarded me this conversation between Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell (from the 700 Club broadcast Thursday, Sept. 13th). I’d like to know what you all think about it.

Tom
---------------------------

JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters - the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats - what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact - if, in fact - God continues
to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes.

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.

JERRY FALWELL: Pat, did you notice yesterday the ACLU, and all the Christ-haters, People For the American Way, NOW, etc. were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress as they went out on the steps and called out on to God in prayer and sang "God Bless America" and said "let the ACLU be hanged"? In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time - calling upon God.

PAT ROBERTSON: Amen

“Christianity is all for practice, and so much time as is spent in quarrels about it is a diminution to its interest. We inquire so much what it is that we have but little time left to be Christians.” Jeremy Taylor

writerdad
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 9/17/2001 6:02 AM (GMT -6)

Psalm 11 was what our pastor taught on this week. That God never answers why but rather affirms that he is in his santuary, that he is our refuge.
From my own perspective, I have found this to be the only source of comfort I have found this week. Theology, many times, occupies more of the mind than the heart and, as much as an open theist as I am, I did not find it particularly comforting to think that God did not plan this but allowed it to happen. And while I am not ready to believe God decreed such a thing, I can understand why people would want to believe God did do so and that (somehow) he has planned it for good. There is a great deal of security in that for the person of faith to grasp at. It gives a person the sense that, no matter how much the world is spinning out of control, God is still in control. I can understand that.
Mephi, thanks much for your thought. As much as I rail at you, I do not pause to thank you for the honesty you truly bring to each discussion. John 17:3 Harold

whasssuuuppp
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210

Posted 9/17/2001 7:41 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Tom,
Go to the "another sad quote" thread for an interesting discussion of what you posted...

WU

***********************

Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb

GODesteem
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 34

Posted 9/17/2001 1:51 PM (GMT -6)

PS: I figured that I would post these things. All of these links are from Rev. John Piper's "Desiring God" website:

"http://www.desiringgod.org/Audio/Interview091201.ram" target="_blank">Audio of John Piper Radio Interview Regarding WTC Tragedy

"http://www.desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/Suffering/HowShallWeMinister.htm" target="_blank">How Shall We Minister to People After the World Trade Tower Terrorism?

"http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper81/041781.htm" target="_blank">Two Ways to Respond to Suffering

You may not agree with everything said, but it is another perspective.

I Corinthians 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Benjamin here:

Thanks, Mephi, for bringing some clarity to this discussion. I am frankly awestruck at the amazing ability of people to completely ignore two basic points about God and His actions:

(1) God is holy, and has an intense hatred of sin and wickedness

(2) God is the Creator of life, and has every right to take away what He has given - all life is a gift.

This thread began with these words:

"Pray? Who should we pray to? Who? God? God took took all these wonderful people! I just have no hope."

My basic response to this woman, after I had done all I could to comfort without words, would be simply that God does not OWE any human being a thing - especially human beings who ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is an incredible testimony to the mercy and grace of God that ANY of us are still breathing! I pray that we all are reminded of the incredible ignorance of one who plans their life as if God doesn't exist - just read James 4, and you see that all such boasting if evil. Instead we should say, "If the Lord wills, we will do this or that....."

God loves Himself more than anything... He is our greatest treasure!

Donald Hogue
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 3

Posted 9/17/2001 4:27 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

I heard this said by a woman interviewed on NBC news:

"Pray? Who should we pray to? Who? God? God took took all these wonderful people! I just have no hope."

At times like this, I believe it is SO important to be able to articulate why and how it is that GOD IS NOT BEHIND EVERYTHING! This woman expresses why.

Comments?

A still quite numb
Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Doc, Here is a summary of a biblical view of the tragedy. Do you agree?

What We Do Know
Here are four facts that God's Word makes perfectly clear.
Evil is real. We can and should be angry at today's tragedy. It is wrong; people are dead. Just as our Lord Jesus Christ stood before Lazarus' grave and was furious at death (John 11:33-36), so we too should be angry at the heartache and disruption of this day.
Evil is unnatural. Evil is the ugly intruder to God's perfect creation. God is not the author of evil (James 1:13). As Dr. Os Guinness has declared, "The world should have been otherwise."
God is good. Romans 8:28-39 remind us that He alone is able to make all things work together for the good of His own. Even though we do not fully comprehend today's events, He promises to make good out of them. We are to fight against evil because our great Triune God has fought against it at the Cross and won! No other God has wounds!
God is sovereign. He has not lost control (Psalm 103:19; 115:3). One day He will put every enemy under His foot, conquer all evil, and bring justice to bear. Although our understanding is finite, He calls us to follow Him and to trust Him for He is trustworthy.

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 9/17/2001 4:41 PM (GMT -6)

Godesteem:"I am frankly awestruck at the amazing ability of people to completely ignore [that]...God is holy, and has an intense hatred of sin and wickedness. "

Doc: Sorry Godesteem, I don't mean to "completely ignore" God's holiness and hatred of sin. But its just that I don't have a clue as to what Reformed folk like Swindol MEAN when that ASSERT God's holiness in ordaining sin, and when they ASSERT God's hatred for what he ordains.

God is holy for ordaining Satan to do evil, and Satan is evil for doing what the holy God ordains.

God in his holiness hates the evil he sovereign wills to happen. Yet God is not internally conflicted.

I no of no way to ascribing meaning to these words. A and -A. A and -A. A and -A.

And I'm sadden that, so far as I can see, the distinction between God and Satan is reduced to an assertion which, so far as I can tell, has no meaning. It is insisted on, for sure. But the insistence doesn't become meaningful because of the fervor with which it is made.

God and Satan agree on every point, for Satan does nothing which does not fit into God's sovereign plan. Yet God is all holy for agreeing with Satan, and Satan is all evil for agreeing with God. (Agree is here defined as 'willed activity," not subjective consent).

Swindol spoke straightfowardly when he said "this is incomprehensible."

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 9/17/2001 4:47 PM (GMT -6)

Don Hogue: Here is a summary of a biblical view of the tragedy. Do you agree?

1) Evil is real. We can and should be angry at today's tragedy. It is wrong; people are dead. Just as our Lord Jesus Christ stood before Lazarus' grave and was furious at death (John 11:33-36), so we too should be angry at the heartache and disruption of this day.

Doc: Absolutely agree.

2) Evil is unnatural. Evil is the ugly intruder to God's perfect creation. God is not the author of evil (James 1:13). As Dr. Os Guinness has declared, "The world should have been otherwise."

Doc: Absolutely agree.

3) God is good. Romans 8:28-39 remind us that He alone is able to make all things work together for the good of His own. Even though we do not fully comprehend today's events, He promises to make good out of them. We are to fight against evil because our great Triune God has fought against it at the Cross and won! No other God has wounds!

Doc: Rom. 8:28 doesn't promise that God will bring good out of evil for ALL people, only that he "works with" those who love him and are called according to his purpose. He would LIKE to bring redemptive value out of evil for all people, but many people push God away and thus miss the redemptive value.

4) God is sovereign. He has not lost control (Psalm 103:19; 115:3). One day He will put every enemy under His foot, conquer all evil, and bring justice to bear. Although our understanding is finite, He calls us to follow Him and to trust Him for He is trustworthy.

Doc: Absolutely agree, so long as you don't limit God by defining sovereignty as exhaustively control.

Thanks for the input Don.
Blessings

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 9/17/2001 5:44 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Memphi: some people can find much confort in the "blueprint" model.

So be it, if the blueprint fits for SOME people this is good, but there are others who feel similar to the woman in this quote. I believe we need to speak softly and be sensitive to where people are at. I doubt very seriously that Jerry Falwell was able to persuade many non-believers over to Christianity by his insensitive, untimely and blunt words.

quote:
Proverbs23_23: THINK about it, if everything was mapped out ... she has a POINT! "God took all of those wonderful people" and caused hurt and confusion in the process.
I know people that have left the Christian faith because they thought God planned everything.

I too personally know of people who have left their faith because of this belief.

quote:
Lee: whatever view we have on God's control, we can know that God is greater than any evil in the world, that is the message of the cross.

I agree 100%. In times of crises such as we are in, whatever works is what we need to cling to. We need to assure people, however, that God DID NOT WANT this tragedy to happen regardless of what theory we believe. The main thing is that people need to be told that God is a God of love. especially if they think God somehow indirectly caused this.

quote:
GODesteem: 1) God is holy, and has an intense hatred of sin and wickedness
(2) God is the Creator of life, and has every right to take away what He has given - all life is a gift.

I agree that God HATES sin and evil thus I believe God hates what happened in this tragedy. God has ALL authority but because of the love God has for us has opted to give people free will to choose. Those terrorists choose to do evil -- NOT GOD. God often does NOT intervene, even when a person is totally living life for God. Bad things happen to good people all the time. Bad things happen to the innocent (children), the vulnerable (elderly), and the helpless (handicapped)...

quote:
Doc: God and Satan agree on every point, for Satan does nothing which does not fit into God's sovereign plan. Yet God is all holy for agreeing with Satan, and Satan is all evil for agreeing with God. (Agree is here defined as 'willed activity," not subjective consent).

This does not compute in my brain -- I agree with the Doc. It does not compute that Satan would be acting on God's behalf as a "robot" fulfilling God's will. What is the destinction between the two? God wills (predestines) some act, but Satan, by fulfilling this evil act through pawning human agents, gets the blame? Well, I know for certain that Satan DOES get the blame for evil (for this tragedy), BUT I can't say that this evil that was committed was part of God's "will". It really doesn't register with my brain.

In any event, hopefully this will be what it takes to WAKE us ALL up to remembering where the source of our life comes from. We, as a nation, need to turn back to acknowledging that we need God. In the end, "Every knee shall bow and tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!

Peace to you all,
trosie

Wondering
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 1

Posted 9/17/2001 7:27 PM (GMT -6)

I'm wondering if I might get some thoughts on the following, a quote indeed, taken verbatim from a teaching of a pastor near where I live. Your input is valued, and I thank you for it. I would particularly be blessed if you, Doc, responded...This is long...I do end it a bit soon for breavity, and I pick it up after the introduction...( He was on his way to a pastors prayer meeting)

"...by the time I reached the prayer meeting,one of the towers was in ruble. The other fell as we watched. Shock, horror, grief,fear all came in waves across our nation and the world. My mind immediately was riveted to the words, "Babylon the great has fallen, is fallen and has become a dwelling place of the demons...Alas,alas, that great city,in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she was made desolate" (Rev 18: 2,19) I hope you will read and meditate on the whole chapter" The teaching continues..." It is now the end of the week and soon our nation will gatherin memorial services from coast to coast. THE TRUMPET HAS SOUNDED! Something somomentous has happened no one dares ignore it. It is time for ultimate questions.We must ask why, how, and what is next. We must think on ultimate themes,life, death,judgement,eternity,love truth and God. But so far, I am very disappointed in what I hear frompastoral voices. They mostly talk in psycolocical categories. They mostly avoid the question "How could God let this happen?" I am convinced that the clergy has been intimidated. We shrink back fromtelling the world that it is time to repent. We shrink back from saying that, as evil as the heart of man has become, the larger question is why God has been so patient and merciful to so wicked a nation." "No one wants to tell the truth. America has rejected God and His Word and therefore He has stopped protecting us. Hear the word of the Lord again:" Render to her just as she has rendered to you and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. In the measure that she glorified herself and live luxuriously,in the same measure give her torment and sorrow, for she says in her heart, 'I sit as queen and am no widow,and will not see sorrow'(Rev 18:6-7) Preachers fear to preach the judgement of God because they will not put you on TV with such a message."
"New York City is a trumpet Blast"

This is a word for word transcriptionto this point. He goes on to say the people did not "deserve what they got as individuals" , but again, it was a trumphet blast and "...but the rest of man kind who where not killed by these plaugues did not repent of the works of there hands that they should not worship demons..." Covers most of the above,calling the USA, babylon...

I thank you in advance for taking the time to read this post,it is long, and I thank you a double portion for your thoughtful responses.

Lee Merrill
booted

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723

Posted 9/18/2001 6:44 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
God and Satan agree on every point, for Satan does nothing which does not fit into God's sovereign plan. Yet God is all holy for agreeing with Satan, and Satan is all evil for agreeing with God. (Agree is here defined as "willed activity," not subjective consent).

This problem, to me at least, tends to become more comprehensible if we view God as inside suffering, instead of outside suffering. If a person chooses a path of suffering, that can be noble. Satan doesn't choose that path, but God does.

Thus there is a difference in purpose here, I believe.

This also seems to become clearest to me when I consider the crucifixion of Jesus, God's Son. Certainly the devil carried this out, but it was in accordance with God's plan, though this event was worse than any other evil on earth.

But it affected us all for good, God's purpose prevailed, not the devil's, though the actions that the devil did were ordained by God.

And the devil's actions, it seems, should not be (rhetorically, I realize) equated with God's actions, since the devil can't carry out all his desires, thus when he does act, it is under God's control, as in the book of Job.

So this is how I can find comfort in such times, in realizing that there is a purpose in suffering. If God's children get to heaven with no pain, there is nothing to reward, of pleasant circumstances, we may have, "they have their reward."

Also, "Death is at work in us, but life in you," wrote Paul, and thus God's life comes to us by way of resurrection, which implies suffering, even a form of dying.

To see the life, the result of the seed dying, gives me encouragement that God can be trusted, and that pain can have a good purpose, even intense pain, such as the pain of a crucifixion.

God bless you,
Lee

==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

GODesteem
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 34

Posted 9/19/2001 11:06 AM (GMT -6)

Greetings To Mr. Boyd!

Just a few comments, beginning with your own words:

Doc: Sorry Godesteem, I don't mean to "completely ignore" God's holiness and hatred of sin. But its just that I don't have a clue as to what Reformed folk like Swindol MEAN when that ASSERT God's holiness in ordaining sin, and when they ASSERT God's hatred for what he ordains.

Benjamin: Bingo! Whereas I wouldn't use Chuck Swindoll as an example of "true" Reformed thought on such things, I must say that you need to read into what "Reformed folk" have said on such things. I am sure you are well familiar with John Piper, and surely you managed to read his article on the Two wills of God? Or maybe his summary of Jonathan Edwards views on God's ordaining of evil and sin? I strongly suggest you do so, and ponder what the Bible has to say (Piper and Edwards simply made their best attempt at grappling with the Word of God). Then you may begin to cast off this misrepresentation of Reformers believing in a "divine blueprint", or trusting in a God who is mechanical and simply created automatons to do His bidding.

Doc: God is holy for ordaining Satan to do evil, and Satan is evil for doing what the holy God ordains.

God in his holiness hates the evil he sovereign wills to happen. Yet God is not internally conflicted.

I no of no way to ascribing meaning to these words. A and -A. A and -A. A and -A.

Benjamin: Why do you attempt to limit God's emotional capacities? Does God have to fit your human philisophical "logic" for His actions and character to "make sense"? My goodness - we cannot even begin to understand God unless He opens our hearts. As far as I can tell, Open Theism always falls back on "logic" and philosophy, rather than submitting to the Word of God, no matter how confusing or perplexing the truths revealed in its pages.

Doc: And I'm sadden that, so far as I can see, the distinction between God and Satan is reduced to an assertion which, so far as I can tell, has no meaning. It is insisted on, for sure. But the insistence doesn't become meaningful because of the fervor with which it is made.

God and Satan agree on every point, for Satan does nothing which does not fit into God's sovereign plan. Yet God is all holy for agreeing with Satan, and Satan is all evil for agreeing with God. (Agree is here defined as 'willed activity," not subjective consent).

Benjamin: Talk about a confusion of categories! While I cannot make out the English within your definitions (i.e. Satan is all evil for "willed activity" with God?), you seem to be forcing the open perspective into the classical view of God foreknowledge. In the classical view, God does interact with His creation, but He does not alter His plan which He devised from all eternity. God does not "agree" with someone in the sense that He was not certain of their actions beforehand, and gives approval upon deliberation of the potential action. However, ultimately, you seem to forget that there are motivations behind each and every action. This is essentially boiling down to the very definition of freewill! If God has righteous desires, and acts on them, then He is choosing one thing over the other. If Satan has evil desires, and acts on them, then he is choosing one thing over the other. At the same time, Satan does not know the future in any certainty (other than his own future destruction and eternal punishment), and can only see the consequences of his actions to a miniscule extent. On the other hand, God, knowing the past, present and future to a complete extent, knows exactly how each and every decision will affect every future decision. Hence God can use Satan to accomplish good, because He is perfectly capable of working all things after the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1). While Satan commits the evil out of a rebellious heart, and has no desire to produce good from his actions, God ordains the same action to produce good. This is not A versus A-, because there are motivations and parameters beneath the same action. Forgive my lack of philisophical prowess.

In summary, you state that you cannot understand how God can ordain an action that He hates. To this I say - fine! God does not call us to write books on His intricate workings in the universe. However, if the Word of God teaches any truth, we must submit to it. What Biblical objection is there to God having complex emotions? Or for God being grieved at a moment over a sin, which He knows and planned to be a part of resultant good?

God loves Himself more than anything... He is our greatest treasure!

Springs
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 9/19/2001 6:40 PM (GMT -6)

Godesteem wrote:

quote:
I must say that you need to read into what "Reformed folk" have said on such things. I am sure you are well familiar with John Piper, and surely you managed to read his article on the Two wills of God? Or maybe his summary of Jonathan Edwards views on God's ordaining of evil and sin? I strongly suggest you do so, and ponder what the Bible has to say (Piper and Edwards simply made their best attempt at grappling with the Word of God).

(My emphasis)

Ha!!!

You have got to be kiddin' me! Familiar with Piper?! Suggested readings? Yer killin' me here.

what a laugh.

-S

Nature's first green is gold. -Frost

whasssuuuppp
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210

Posted 10/3/2001 11:56 AM (GMT -6)

I heard this song by Sarah McLachlan the other day and was so intrigued by the lyrics that I searched for them. It fits with this thread. Here they are--the song's called "Dear God."

Dear God,
Hope you got the letter and...
I pray you can make it better down here
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
But all the people that you made in your image
See them starving on their feet
Cause they don't get enough to eat
From God
I can't believe in you
Dear God,
Sorry to disturb you but...
I feel that I should be hear loud and clear
We all need a big reduction
In the amount of tears
And all the people that you made in your image
See them fighting in the street
Cause they can't make opinions meet about God
I can't believe in you
Did you make disease
and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind
after we made you?
And the devil too?
Dear God,
Don't know if you noticed but...
Your name is on a lot of quotes in this book
And as crazy humans wrote it
you should take a look
And all the people that you made in your image
Still believeing that junk is true
Well I know it ain't and so do you, dear God
I can't believe in
I don't believe in
I won't believe in heaven and hell
no saints no sinners no devil as well
no pearly gate no thorny crown
you're always letting us humans down
the wars you bring
the babes you drown
those lost at sea and never found
and it's all the same the whole world round
the hurt I see helps to compound
That Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
is just somebody's unholy hoax
And if you're up there you'd perceive
That my heart's here upon my sleeve
If there's one thing I don't believe in...
It's you, dear God.

************************

Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb

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