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whasssuuuppp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/15/2001 1:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | Look at this link from CBS news web site, and I'll also post the article below.
http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,311427-412,00.shtml
The Rev. Jerry Falwell said the terrorist attacks on the U.S. were "probably what we deserve."
You heard right.
Falwell made his remarks on "The 700 Club," the popular religious show on the Christian Broadcasting Network hosted by Pat Robertson. Robertson immediately said, "Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror."
These aren't quotes taken out of context. Falwell and Robertson did not misspeak. These are their considered beliefs. You can see the video for yourself at CBN.com, and click on "Thursday Morning 700 Club" in the video section.
Falwell said, "I fear...that this is only the beginning." He said what happened Tuesday would turn out to be "minuscule...if in fact God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."
Specifically, Falwell pointed to "the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians...the ACLU, the People for the American Way" and other "Christ-haters."
"The ACLU's got to take a lot of the blame for this," said Falwell
"All of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen,'" Falwell said.
Robertson's instant response was, "I totally concur. The problem is that we've adopted that agenda at the highest levels of government."
Falwell stuck to his guns well after the show. He told The New York Times, "I sincerely believe that the collective efforts of many secularists during the past generation, resulting in the expulsion from our schools and from the public square, has left us vulnerable."
Robertson put his thinking down in writing in an essay distributed by his cable network.
He wrote, "We have insulted God at the highest level of our government. Then, we say, "Why does this happen?" It is happening because God Almighty is lifting His protection from us."
"But I want to say as surely as I am sitting here today, this is only a foretaste, a little warning, of what is going to happen," Robertson continued.
It almost seems in poor taste even to respond to these offensive pronouncements. They are profoundly disrespectful of tragic losses and they are insulting.
Falwell and Robertson tell us that God "lifted the curtain of protection" from America. I'm sure Osama bin Laden would agree.
© MMI, CBS Worldwide Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 9/15/2001 5:22 PM (GMT -6) | | I understand and share your revulsion at simplistically identifying various liberal parties as being responsible for this tragedy. But might there not be a modicum of truth in this, whasssuuuppp?
If God's interaction with us is in fact conditioned by the openness of our hearts and the persistance of our prayers, might we as a nation not be lacking protection we might otherwise have had? I don't for a second think God orchestrated this catastrophy as a "judgement" -- or as anything. He wishes it could have been prevented. But because of the kind of world he created, involving free agents with morally responsible 'say so", preventing it hung on the power of prayer.
Consider this passage:
Ezek. 22:29 The people of the land have practiced extortion and committed robbery; they have oppressed the poor and needy, and have extorted from the alien without redress.
Ezek. 22:30 And I sought for anyone among them who would repair the wall and stand in the breach before me on behalf of the land, so that I would not destroy it; but I found no one.
Ezek. 22:31 Therefore I have poured out my indignation upon them...
If "someone" would have stood in the gap, the disaster (involving other nations who wanted to destroy Israel) could have been avoided. God WANTED to avoid it, but it depended on prayer. God takes the moral responsiblity of prayer VERY SERIOUSLY.
So, I would not blame the ACLU or feminist for this disaster. I would first blame the terrorist. but I would also hold that sufficient prayer might have been able to avert it. (Perhaps the prayer that IS present prevented it from being worse!)
What do you think, Whasssuuuppp?
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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faith
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 9/15/2001 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | I thought these verses applied -- do you think so?
Luke 13:2-5:
"Jesus answered, 'Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower of Shiloam fell on them -- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all persish.'"
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faith
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 9/15/2001 5:51 PM (GMT -6) | | I believe that God has been our shield in times past. The terrorist attacks illustrate that. Their whole plot was relatively simple -- they used boxcutters. It was like there was this big hole that they walked right through -- as if to show us that it's not our fancy technology that's been keeping us safe all these years but God alone.
Here's another thought. This one on prayer. The last flight took place after the others. Many people had already witnessed the WTC being hit and were already in prayer. The power of prayer may have been a determining factor in the result of that last flight, ya think?
If lack of prayer along with evil were the source of what happened, what kind of prayer would've made the difference? People together praying for our nation? People repenting? Would it have needed to be a specific prayer? How best can we pray right now to make a difference?
I've been reading about the Afghan people and their history. I really feel it's so tragic that they don't know Christ. I wish wish wish that we as Christians had reached them earlier. And I often think of the 8? Christians they have arrested there and how courageous they were to share their faith while knowing the consequences. Would these nations so hostile to Christianity become believers if enough people were willing to sacrifice themselves? Isn't that what the early Christians were so willing to do? Are we, too, supposed to be martyrs? Lose our lives for His sake, take up our cross, face persecution? It honestly scares me to think about. But, and this is a huge what if, but what if 500 Christians went to a place like Afghanistan and were all imprisoned or even killed for their beliefs. Wouldn't that make a difference? What if it was 100? Or 10? Or1 who were witnesses of Christ's love and forgiveness. What would happen? I guess all of this has really made me realize how petty my concerns about little things like ridicule or discomfort are when I should be willing to lay down my life (what to lose? All to gain) for the cause of Christ. I don't know. I'm preaching to myself here. I guess this really isn't appropriate to this thread. I just started rambling -- sorry
Edited by - faith on 09/15/2001 11:28:46 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/15/2001 6:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Specifically, Falwell pointed to "the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians...the ACLU, the People for the American Way" and other "Christ-haters...Robertson's instant response was, 'I totally concur. The problem is that we've adopted that agenda at the highest levels of government.'"
When I heard this on a television report I immediately said, "PLEASE, tell me they didn't really say that at such a fragile time." WHAT A TURNOFF FOR NON-BELIEVERS. Let's add to the distorted theology that some people hold about God "predestining this tragedy for some greater good", and then add blame and pointing fingers. Let's throw the "first" stone at the "sinners" because OH, MY! We don't sin now do we. Personally, I think this was tacky and totally insensitive that men of God would say such a thing at a time like this!
quote:
Doc said: But because of the kind of world he created, involving free agents with morally responsible 'say so", preventing it hung on the power of prayer.
Doc, do you really believe that this tragedy could have possibly been avoided if there were "enough" people praying and standing in the gap for our nation? I know that there is much sin that is prevailent in our nation BUT there are many sold out believers with a passion for Christ. I have a hard time believing that their prayers weren't sufficient enough. Perhaps I am reading you wrong here?
quote:
Faith: The power of prayer may have been a determining factor in the result of that last flight, ya think?
I believe that the power of prayer was definitely the reason that more damage was not done in the entire attack. I believe that this tragedy is a "wake-up call" that might just possibly get the attention of believers as a whole to get on their knees to seek out God's mercy and grace.
I must admit I am just a wee bit peeved by what these men said on the 700 Club, thus it helped me to vent it here.
trosie
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/15/2001 7:46 PM (GMT -6) | | The main problem I have with this is what Trosie already pointed out--that it was incredibly insensitive and tacky and, I think, totally unneeded right now, for a variety of reasons. Like it's soooo helpful, right now when so many people are grieving, to be going out and blaming certain people for something that has been so tragic for everyone. Really, it's just what we all needed! Nice simple answers that fit in nice boxes and blame everyone but ourselves. RIGHT!! And at the same time why don't we alienate people (who desperately need to know God) even more from Christianity? 
Having said that, I do agree that prayer can and does make a difference. We don't know what difference prayer made in what happened in Tuesday, or what difference it's made since then. The prayers of the righteous accomplish much.
At the same time, I don't know if any amount of prayer could have averted this, at least after a certain point when decisions were set in stone. Maybe. But I guess things still could have changed. Planes could have had mechanical problems and been grounded, the hijackers plans could have been discovered. I don't want to sound heretical or anything. But at some point the "morally responsible say-so" of the terrorists allowed them to do what they did. And any amount of prayer up against their say-so, which at some point was set in stone, may not have been able to change their minds. But still the circumstances could have changed, like I said...but at some point don't you take away the free will of the terrorists? I don't know. I'm still playing around with how all of our free wills interact when we pray. Because the terrorists sure took away the free will of many thousands of people. And, like Trosie pointed out, there ARE righteous people in America who are on their knees every day for this nation. I don't think you can compare this to the passage in Ezekial where God was looking for ONE person, just one, to stand in the gap for Israel
One last thing. Falwell and Robertson seem to equate our righteousness with how much hardship we experience, essentially saying that if we were a more righteous nation, we would be more protected by God. I'm not sure this is always true. In the time of Israel, like in the Ezekial passage, I think it had some truth to it. But Jesus had somewhat of a different view--like "faith" pointed out with the verse from Luke. The level of suffering one experiences (or a nation experiences?) is not "proportional" to how "bad" of a sinner one is (or how much sin a nation has). I don't know. Just thinking out loud.
WU
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Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb
Edited by - whasssuuuppp on 09/16/2001 12:50:52 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 9/15/2001 8:13 PM (GMT -6) | | With Trosie and Whasssuuuppp, I agree with the tactlessness of the statements, and with the consequent damage it does to Christians PR.
Regarding whether or not the disaster could have been avoided had there been more prayer, or less sin, its impossible to say. Prayer increases God's INFLUENCE, but influence stops short of coercion. The collective freedom and evil of the agents involved might have accomplished this no matter what. And, as WU noted, there is no correlation between how righteous a person is and how much suffering they avoid.
Given the interconnectedness of things, In ANY occurence, the number of variables that factor into it are as numerous as the free agents, human and angelic, that have ever existed and even all the decisions these free agents have made. Hence, nothing close to a comprehensive explanation is ever possible. Had anything in the history of decision making been different, this event might have been alittle -- or alot -- different.
This is the mystery of evil. It is simply chaos theory applied to human affairs.
We can only say with confidence that prayer did help the situation, and more prayer would have helped it more -- and perhaps even averted it altogether.
Doc
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/15/2001 8:23 PM (GMT -6) | | A couple more things (I'm with Trosie, I'm venting here because this thing made me MAD! Can you tell? I've been pretty emotional this week)--
Falwell says the terrorist attacks are "probably what we deserve" (given the sin in our nation)--You know what? I deserve death. You deserve death. We all deserve to die for our sin. But Jesus Christ died FOR us, defeated satan, making a mockery of him, and we are now free. To suggest that we as a nation, because of our sin, "deserved" the suffering that was brought on us on Tuesday, somehow makes it seem like Jesus' death wasn't sufficient.
Secondly, they say that God's veil of protection is being lifted from America because of it's progressive secularization, especially at high levels of government. Baloney. America has always been secular, this is not a new thing. And it hardly seems like God's blessing of protection comes and goes based on how "righteous" our leaders are. Also, they equate the "expulsion" of prayer and the Bible from schools as secularization (the article doesn't say this exactly, but their web site does). But who says you can't read your Bible in school? Since when do kids need permission to pray there?
And does Robertson think he's some kind of prophet, fortelling what is to come??? ("But I want to say as surely as I am sitting here today, this is only a foretaste, a little warning, of what is going to happen," Robertson continued).
Someone out there's probably going to slam me for this, but I don't care right now.
WU
***********************
Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/16/2001 12:25 AM (GMT -6) | | I am glad to know that there are others that share in their anger and disapproval regarding Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson's TACTLESS statements. I was laying in bed thinking about this and I would like to add one more thing. If it is the nations sins that are to blame or a lack of prayer that is the reason God "allowed" this thing to occur, than we would have to say that in all the countries of the world, where this sort of thing occurs much more frequenlty, the people there are MUCH more sinful and MUCH less prayerful than we here in America, right? I agree with Whasssuuuppp when she said. "To suggest that we as a nation, because of our sin, "deserved" the suffering that was brought on us on Tuesday, somehow makes it seem like Jesus' death wasn't sufficient." I also agree with Doc and Whasssuuuppp that there is no correlation between how righteous a person is and how much suffering they might avoid. Yes, indeed prayer does influence things. I believe prayer did influence how much the terrorists were able to accomplish that horrific day.
I hope so much that this tragedy has revived in us all the urgency of prayer in our nation, in our churches, and in our lives.
trosie
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/16/2001 2:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Proverbs23_23: ...why I always point people to the Christ, NOT the Christian. Jesus is the source of all things good.
... To me, SPEAKING OUT negative, and quite threatening words as in the quote, only solidify anger TOWARDS God, NOT drawing people into His everlasting arms.
AMEN! To that I concur 100%!!!
trosie
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Mephi2K
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 9/16/2001 4:31 AM (GMT -6) | | I'd like to make some points here.
First of all, I don't have as much as a problem with Falwell talking about the "liberal enemy" (he does that all the time, after all) as much as I do with him NOT mentioning the sin, prayerlessness, and apathy of the Church. You would think that if he were going to try to give some type of prophetic decree or interpretation of this event (Spirit-led or not) that he would happen to mention that. Falwell's obvious inability at SELF-REFLECTION, both at an individual and corporate level, are what sicken me far more than his slamming of the more liberal elements of our society. Note: This is not to say that I agree with this slamming of his per se. Let that be known.
Second, Falwell and Robertson's tactlessness notwithstanding, it amazes me how some people seem to rule out OUT OF HAND that this whole situation just may be (MAY BE, mind you) some type of machination by God, even some sort of judgement. This is not to say that I think it may have been INEVITABLE. Surely, there is a possibility that prayer may have averted this. I'm just saying that God may be more involved than some people think. God has used "hedges of protection" in the past...and lifted them. But due to the PC psychologizing of our American church, this possibility is negated. I think that's wrong. Now, to be sure, there is a time and place for everything. One doesn't just go into situations like this proclaiming this type of stuff. One must be quite sensitive both to the Spirit AND towards people. But, one should also not fear saying these things.
Third, and LEAST important, I would like to say that some of the things being discussed on this thread, specifically by Trosie and Doc, are just some of the problems that the open view via Doc must face. The idea of "chaos theory applied to human affairs" is much more problematic that is being let on. But, of course, there is no surprise in my saying this.
Again, I do not at all justify Falwell's and Robertson's actions. I agree that they were in poor taste and timing at best. I was just bringing up other concerns.
In Christ,
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/17/2001 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi:
quote:
First of all, I don't have as much as a problem with Falwell talking about the "liberal enemy" (he does that all the time, after all) as much as I do with him NOT mentioning the sin, prayerlessness, and apathy of the Church. You would think that if he were going to try to give some type of prophetic decree or interpretation of this event (Spirit-led or not) that he would happen to mention that. Falwell's obvious inability at SELF-REFLECTION, both at an individual and corporate level, are what sicken me far more than his slamming of the more liberal elements of our society. Note: This is not to say that I agree with this slamming of his per se. Let that be known.
I hadn't thought of that, but it's so true. There's really no duplicity with all the "liberal groups" that Robertson and Falwell so enjoy bashing, at least on a religious level. They don't claim to believe the Bible or follow God, so why would I ever expect them too? But with the church, we claim to believe in God and live by the Bible, but as Mephi pointed out the church is full of apathy, prayerlessness, and the like, despite our "convictions." It makes no sense for Robertson and Falwell to jump on the liberals and leave the church untouched.
Trosie:
quote:
I was laying in bed thinking about this and I would like to add one more thing. If it is the nations sins that are to blame or a lack of prayer that is the reason God "allowed" this thing to occur, than we would have to say that in all the countries of the world, where this sort of thing occurs much more frequenlty, the people there are MUCH more sinful and MUCH less prayerful than we here in America, right?
If one holds to that correlation (that more sinfulness equals more suffering and less protection from God), then they'd come to that conclusion. But I don't think anyone would really want to do that. The correlation isn't there. Plus, in saying this, Robertson and Falwell assume that American has, up until this point (or at least recently), been a pretty righteous nation. I'm at a loss as to why they would assume this.
WU
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Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/17/2001 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Whasssuuuppp: If one holds to that correlation (that more sinfulness equals more suffering and less protection from God), then they'd come to that conclusion. But I don't think anyone would really want to do that. The correlation isn't there
I hear people talk about the wrath of God -- about God's judging our nation for it's evil... I am at a loss here because I realize that the bible is full of God's judgement and destruction of evil nations and peoples... however, there are many countries and groups in our current world that have tragedy happening on a regular basis and I fail to see this as a judgment from God.
quote:
Memphi: The idea of "chaos theory applied to human affairs" is much more problematic that is being let on
Memphi, help me out here because I am a layperson just trying to make some sense out of life by seeking to know God in a deeper way. Why is the things being discussed here problematic with the open view? I honestly don't have a clue. Thanks 
trosie
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Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 9/17/2001 7:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I understand and share your revulsion at simplistically identifying various liberal parties as being responsible for this tragedy. But might there not be a modicum of truth in this, whasssuuuppp? ... I would not blame the ACLU or feminist for this disaster. I would first blame the terrorist. but I would also hold that sufficient prayer might have been able to avert it. (Perhaps the prayer that IS present prevented it from being worse!)
quote:
We can only say with confidence that prayer did help the situation, and more prayer would have helped it more -- and perhaps even averted it altogether.
I am so upset by the subject of this thread that I think my head might explode. My hands are shaking so badly I can hardly type. I am disturbed by a certain type of Christian response to this horrific event, epitomized by Falwell and Robertson's remarks. I characterize it as "opportunistic" Christianity-- and I think of it as a soapbox made out of the charred human remains of 5,000 innocent human beings, and their thousands of suffering family members--sickeningly turned, in the brief hours and days since this nightmare began, into a CASE STUDY, or EXAMPLE, of whatever agenda is uppermost in their fevered zealots' brains.
Greg, I know your heart, and I know you are nothing like Falwell and his ilk, but the effect on me of some of your words here is like acid poured on a festering wound. I know that you would never intend to hurt, and I ask simply that you consider a different point of view, in which perhaps the impact is quite different from the intent.
In the last few weeks my 43-year-old brother-in-law died in a freak accident, a colleague of my husband died after a long struggle with cancer, my sister attempted to commit suicide, (as I write this she lies in a hospital bed recovering from the electro-convulsive therapy--otherwise known as shock treatments--that she received this morning) and a handful of terrorists brought this country to its knees, in grief and horror. Another loss that affected us this week: the father of another of my husband's colleagues was found dead in his farm field; he had tripped and a four inch stalk of corn had pierced his jugular, killing him instantly.
Shall we ask, in each of these cases: should we have prayed more? Would my husband's brother be alive, if only we had prayed, fervently and forever, for the protection of our family? Is it our lack of prayer, or our inconstancy in prayer; our ability to be distracted by life, its difficulties, so distracted by planes crashing into buildings that even as the worst happens we cannot pray because we cannot breathe or swallow or believe what we see? If perhaps I had prayed harder for my sister, could I lift the dark veil descending down upon her? I could not invite her to church because she is gay, and I would never risk extinguishing the spiritual desire that smolders in a heart dark with depression--extinguishing the spirit by exposing her to what she has a lifetime of exposure to: Christian judgment. (If you have any doubt, look no further than the homosexuality thread on this website.) And of course homosexuals are a special type of sinner, that exempts them from church leadership and polite company. But not to worry, my sister's suicide attempt had nothing to do with the vicious judgments heaped upon her by helpful Christians eager to save her eternal soul, but rather it was precipitated by the other biological, genetic crapshoot that she won, or lost, called bipolar disorder.
I think of each of my three children, the exquisite beauty of their existence, and in all their present perfection I wonder what might befall them, in a family with a background of depression, bipolar disorder, homosexuality, cancer, heart disease, and anxiety disorders. And I hear your words and I think perhaps if I pray from sunrise to sunset, and if I fasted and gave away all my possessions, and forced myself awake even in the middle of the night to pray, perhaps my children would be safe and they could live long enough to pray for their children.
And I guess all those families whose loved ones leapt to their death from the hundredth floor, or were incinerated, or crushed by ten million tons of steel and concrete, or had their throats slit by the hijackers, I guess the husbands and wives and fathers and mothers and children of those multitudes who died will just have to swallow here in the present pit of their bottomless edgeless fathomless pain, the bitter pill that if we all had just prayed more, their brother sister friend lover child might yet laugh, love, hug, and BE ALIVE.
Timing is everything. When Jesus healed the afflicted, he didn't stop and lecture them about how they could have avoided their trouble by living right and praying more. He simply comforted and healed them. It's interesting that when one is ministered to, and healed, one doesn't need conversion--it comes naturally. Americans are in shock, in pain, in mourning. We don't need theodicy. We don't need to be told that our prayers fell short. We need to be ministered to. We need to be comforted. We need to be reminded that the power of prayer lies not in results that are not measurable, but in the presence of God who comes at our first inarticulate dark cry of pain, to share our suffering.
To me the best example of Christian love was the response of people of all religions, who poured into the streets bringing medicine, food, and comfort to the victims. The firefighters who fought their way upward into the inferno trying to save lives, only to lose their own. If there is a spiritual revival that grows from this tragedy, it will not be a result of fear-mongering of people like Franklin Graham, who in the hours after the collapse of the WTC, announced that many of the people who died probably weren't saved, and so everyone better get their house in order in case they were to die suddenly; it won't be a result of the finger-pointing of the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson; and it won't be a result of being told that we don't pray enough. If there is a spiritual revival I think it will come because in our darkest hour we reach out for God, and great pain has a way of sucking the substance out of the world around us, so for a brief time the distractions of the world recede, and allow us to do what God asks: to love God with all our heart, and love our neighbor as our self.
I hope in my pain I have not offended. I’m a little overwhelmed by it all.
Semeia
Edited by - Semeia on 09/18/2001 12:55:12 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/18/2001 1:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia:
Thanks for what you wrote. It sums up the anger I feel toward some of the judgments I have heard this past week by people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson! I realize the power in prayer but I too feel that some leaders (definitely NOT Greg ) have used this to shove their own agenda down the throats of the unsaved...
You said:quote:
We need to be comforted. We need to be reminded that the power of prayer lies not in results that are not measurable, but in the presence of God who comes at our first inarticulate dark cry of pain, to share our suffering
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
You also said: quote:
If there is a spiritual revival I think it will come because in our darkest hour we reach out for God, and great pain has a way of sucking the substance out of the world around us, so for a brief time the distractions of the world recede, and allow us to do what God asks: to love God with all our heart, and love our neighbor as our self.
Again I give a HEARTY AMEN!
Thanks for putting this into words! I look forward to reading the responses you receive.
trosie
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/18/2001 8:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Shall we ask, in each of these cases: should we have prayed more? Would my husband's brother be alive, if only we had prayed, fervently and forever, for the protection of our family? Is it our lack of prayer, or our inconstancy in prayer; our ability to be distracted by life, its difficulties, so distracted by planes crashing into buildings that even as the worst happens we cannot pray because we cannot breathe or swallow or believe what we see? If perhaps I had prayed harder for my sister, could I lift the dark veil descending down upon her? I could not invite her to church because she is gay, and I would never risk extinguishing the spiritual desire that smolders in a heart dark with depression--extinguishing the spirit by exposing her to what she has a lifetime of exposure to: Christian judgment. (If you have any doubt, look no further than the homosexuality thread on this website.) And of course homosexuals are a special type of sinner, that exempts them from church leadership and polite company. But not to worry, my sister's suicide attempt had nothing to do with the vicious judgments heaped upon her by helpful Christians eager to save her eternal soul, but rather it was precipitated by the other biological, genetic crapshoot that she won, or lost, called bipolar disorder.
I think of each of my three children, the exquisite beauty of their existence, and in all their present perfection I wonder what might befall them, in a family with a background of depression, bipolar disorder, homosexuality, cancer, heart disease, and anxiety disorders. And I hear your words and I think perhaps if I pray from sunrise to sunset, and if I fasted and gave away all my possessions, and forced myself awake even in the middle of the night to pray, perhaps my children would be safe and they could live long enough to pray for their children.
And I guess all those families whose loved ones leapt to their death from the hundredth floor, or were incinerated, or crushed by ten million tons of steel and concrete, or had their throats slit by the hijackers, I guess the husbands and wives and fathers and mothers and children of those multitudes who died will just have to swallow here in the present pit of their bottomless edgeless fathomless pain, the bitter pill that if we all had just prayed more, their brother sister friend lover child might yet laugh, love, hug, and BE ALIVE.
Timing is everything. When Jesus healed the afflicted, he didn't stop and lecture them about how they could have avoided their trouble by living right and praying more. He simply comforted and healed them. It's interesting that when one is ministered to, and healed, one doesn't need conversion--it comes naturally. Americans are in shock, in pain, in mourning. We don't need theodicy. We don't need to be told that our prayers fell short. We need to be ministered to. We need to be comforted. We need to be reminded that the power of prayer lies not in results that are not measurable, but in the presence of God who comes at our first inarticulate dark cry of pain, to share our suffering...
Semeia
I too grow weary of people putting forth entirely UNfalsifiable claims and acting like they have now really said something profound. I think a personal policy needs to be put into place [for me, for now]:
Don't bother me with your theodicy unless you deal with Evil in the abstract, there it is meaningless anyway.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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churchmouse522
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163
| Posted 9/18/2001 10:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Just thought I would inject that Falwell has issued an apology for the comments he made that initiated this thread. I personally have never been too crazy about Falwell and his agenda, but I think now is a time for us to start noticing the places where all Christians intersect. Let's give one another grace. Don't let the enemy divide us.
My husband had a dream the other night. He looked down at his hand during the dream and noticed that he had a brilliantly white gauze dressing on one of his fingers and there was a tiny spider on top of it. I believe this was a word from the Lord for the church. God's heart during this time is to go to those areas where we are vulnerable and heal us. He wants to bind up our wounds. But the enemy knows about those vulnerabilities too, and he will try to take advantage of it. He will inject his poison into our hearts if we are not wise about his intentions.
Notice the people around you and lift them up in the areas where they are hurt or vulnerable. Don't let the enemy use the innocent to destroy the innocent as the terrorists have done. This is a time for radical love and forgiveness. Let's show the world what the church is made of.
Mouse
"If we agree to search for Truth, we do violence to that search any time we silence a voice." Modes of Thought | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/18/2001 10:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Good word Mouse, I strongly concur. Glad you spoke up.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/18/2001 4:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Churchmouse: Just thought I would inject that Falwell has issued an apology for the comments he made that initiated this thread..Let's give one another grace. Don't let the enemy divide us..
I am so glad to hear this. I was not aware of this apology. I agree that we need to give one another some grace. Heck, I thank God when people give me grace because I can often speak too quickly...
quote:
churchmouse: Notice the people around you and lift them up in the areas where they are hurt or vulnerable. Don't let the enemy use the innocent to destroy the innocent as the terrorists have done. This is a time for radical love and forgiveness. Let's show the world what the church is made of.
AMEN! Radical love and forgiveness -- isn't that what Jesus's ministry was all about!!!
trosie
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faith
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 9/18/2001 5:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Semeia,
I'm so sorry to hear of all the losses and heartaches that you've experienced in the past few weeks and sorry that the responses you've read on this thread only aggravated your grief. I don't really know what to say, only that I appreciate your insights. May God give you strength and wisdom and bless you as you minister to those around you.
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 9/19/2001 6:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia,
I too am very sorry about the eruption of terrible stuff you and your family have been experiencing. I would never say what I said about prayer to YOU IN PARTICULAR at this time.
Let me say several things about my statement that prayer might have been able to prevent this event, and that it might be credited with things not being worse.
a) The statement was said IN RESPONSE to Falwell's blaming the "liberals" for the disaster last week. I am simply suggesting that Christians should examine their own heart before they cast the first stone. And given the power God has invested in prayer, here might be a good place to start.
b) One can't say that the presence of prayer makes a positive effect without saying that the absence of prayer makes a negative effect. Scripture supports this conclusion (Ezek 22:29-31).
c) This doesn't mean that we should think that prayer is THE DECISIVE VARIABLE in deciding what does and does not take place in every instance. Prayer is ONE important variable, but there are multitudes of others. And life is such that we CAN'T and SHOULDN'T spend all our time in intercessory prayer AS THOUGH it was the only decisive variable.
As I noted earlier, there are as many variables involved in a particular outcome as there are free agents in the history of the world. Prayer affects things, and lack of prayer affects things -- but so do many other things.
Consider: its good to buckel your child in a seat belt. But sometimes kids who are buckled in still get killed, while other kids who are never buckled in sometimes miraculously survive car crashes. If a person's child died in a car crash and they weren't buckled up, or buckled up tight enough, they should concede that putting on seat belts MIGHT make a difference, but then again It MIgHt NOt HAVE. So you acknowledge that you're not perfect and get on with life.
It won't do any good to either a) try to convince yourself that using seat belts is irrelevant or b) accept all the responsibility as though the use of seat belts was the ONLY relevant thing.
Prayer always helps, but it alone is rarely decisive. If America has been a perfect nation of ferverently praying Christians, would this catastrophy have happened?
Beyond saying "prayer would have helped" I have to say "who knows?"
If I would you, Semeia, I'd forget about all this "making sense out of things" right now and find that center of peace "that passes understanding."
Blessings
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 9/19/2001 12:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Thank you to everyone for the words of support. My sister seems to be doing better at the moment. I would like to share this quote that was read at a memorial service for my brother-in-law; it was particularly comforting to my husband and I, and might be helpful to someone else. (By the way, if anyone knows what book this is from, I would love to know.)
Nothing can make up for the absence of someone whom we love, and it would be wrong to try to find a substitute; we must simply hold out and see it through. That sounds very hard at first, but at the same time it is a great consolation, for the gap, as long as it remains unfilled, preserves the bonds between us. It is nonsense to say that God fills the gap; God doesn't fill it, but on the contrary, God keeps it empty and so helps us to keep alive our former communion with each other, even at the cost of pain ... the dearer and richer our memories, the more difficult the separation. But over time gratitude changes the pangs of memory into a tranquil joy. The beauties of the past are borne, not as a thorn in the flesh, but as a precious gift in themselves.
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Thanks,
Semeia
Edited by - Semeia on 09/19/2001 8:56:00 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/19/2001 5:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Semeia,
I'm sorry, I don't know which book that is taken from, but thanks for posting it. One of my brothers died several years ago, and it describes pretty well how I've felt about losing him. Thanks.
Jen
************************
Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb | | Back to Top | | |
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still_unsure
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54
| Posted 9/23/2001 11:22 AM (GMT -6) | | My apologies for any offense I have caused.
Rob
Edited by - still_unsure on 09/24/2001 05:52:15 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/23/2001 5:42 PM (GMT -6) | | I wish to do two things here. First to point out the presence in the above post of the term: "Calvinistic/deterministic". THAT is a cartoon. Second, to assure that I'm only remarking on that, and not on the content or person of that post.
The phrase "Calvinistic/deterministic" -- which is a cartoon image of some stereotype does not fit my experience living with lots of different kinds of Calvinists. The classic joke is of the Presbyterian minister who fell down the stairs, got up, brushed himself off,and said: "I'm glad that that is over with!" It is a cartoon!
For the purpose of Christian unity, let me supply an example, one that is real, that does not fit the above cartoon.
Tonight, in a Christian Reformed Church, where I am an ethnic minority, the pastor said:
. . . that it is really tough to say where God was in the bombing. God did not cause it. But HAD he determined not to allow it it never would have happened. (That is NOT determinism!) . . .He said that he could say where God WAS. God was: in the Firemen who came rushing to help and their own danger; in the last minute phone calls to family just before...; and in the hearts of those who love their neighbor. he said, closing, that God is God. To God we cast our gaze; to him we turn our face, and in Him we hope!
I remember how easily Christian's can cartoon each other in controversy and debate, and how easily anger is accomplished towards cartoons!
I think we should avoid them.
Thanks.
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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