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graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78

Posted 9/24/2001 4:54 PM (GMT -6)

i don't know how to pose this question....but i have a friend who is catholic. professes christ, if asked who christ was would say that his is the son of God....and yet....there is something of a fundemental nature missing.....i mean i think he's saved but yet there is a absence of something....and i've seen that in the majority of catholics i know....what is it? why does it feel like there is a huge disconnect between an "aliveness" relationship with Christ on a daily basis and verbal profession...? anybody seen that? what is going on with that? how can you profess christ and not have him "present"...is then an issue of being filled or what?? i'm confused. anybody know anything??

GG

Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198

Posted 9/24/2001 5:43 PM (GMT -6)

Most of the catholics that i've met seem to be very much obsessed with their traditions and practices, all the while paying no attention to their relationship with God. I'm not judging the catholic faith in general, but stating what i've observed in some of my friends. Now, I do have a few catholic friends who are very passionate about their faith in God, but that is because they are more focussed on the relationship side of Christianity than they are on the religious side. Catholicism seems to place to much emphasis on religious practices, and not enough on making God the center of your life. Again, i'm not judging, but observing. If there are any catholics here that are offended by that comment, i'm sorry, but that's just my observation, and it's nothing more than an opinion.

In His Grip,
Matt

"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28

Edited by - Triskal on 09/24/2001 10:46:09 PM

Trista
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 6

Posted 9/24/2001 5:54 PM (GMT -6)

Hi graygirl. Growing up Catholic, I can only tell you my experience in this, but hopefully it will help somewhat.
I feel it has something to do with constantly revering this image of a man on a cross, head hanging down, blood running down, looks dead to me. It never took it to the next step for me, which is of course the resurrection! We don't worship a guy who is still hanging on a cross, dead. (While I do believe it is important at times to focus on Christ's suffering for us, I find if this is the only image of Him, we miss the power He has in the resurrection.) I believe, though that is only one aspect of Catholicism, it is effective in keeping the mood very somber. I would even go so far as to say that it focuses on the victimization of Christ, as if to remind his followers that this is what it's really about,(consider the "martyrs and saints" and the importance they hold in Catholic ceremony and literature) and there is no joy, or real power, in that.
Please know that I do not condemn catholics, I just agree that there is little joy in that form of worship. It is not balanced with the positive outcome, is I guess what I'm getting at.

Hope that can help a little.
Trista

trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 9/24/2001 6:37 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
graygirl: why does it feel like there is a huge disconnect between an "aliveness" relationship with Christ on a daily basis and verbal profession...? anybody seen that? what is going on with that? how can you profess christ and not have him "present"...is then an issue of being filled or what?? i'm confused. anybody know anything??

Doesn't this seem to be present throughout all the Christian churches? Why limit it to Catholicism? I believe Satan can often be effective in getting Christians off target in their focus.

Awaken oh sleeping saints there's a WAR going on!
trosie

Trista
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 6

Posted 9/24/2001 7:24 PM (GMT -6)

trosie:Doesn't this seem to be present throughout all the Christian churches? Why limit it to Catholicism? I believe Satan can often be effective in getting Christians off target in their focus.

Thank you for pointing that out! I agree 100%. Something we need to be in prayer about. Bless you for that reminder!

whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210

Posted 9/24/2001 10:26 PM (GMT -6)

I think some of the reasons also have to do with how some catholics look to the Pope, and priests, and saints, as those who can communicate more directly with God than the average person.

Jen
**********************

Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb

graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78

Posted 9/25/2001 3:48 AM (GMT -6)

Hey all

thanks and i agree with everything that has been said....more questions

is it possible that while catholics (and others, yes) are in this frame of mind (this slumber of sorts) is true salvation possible??

and also HOW do you minister to that?!! my present dilemma.....i appreciate your thoughts saints:)

GG

Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817

Posted 9/25/2001 8:16 AM (GMT -6)

All people have to face this all-important qualification of what it means to be a human being: that we are an individual person before God. Now the degree to which one recognizes this is the same degree to which two parallel possibilities emerge and intensify: faith or offense. As one increases in awareness of being before God, one immediately is confronted with the fact that this is a precarious place to be without unfathomable grace. As that realization takes root one will either be offended that one's own inadequacy being revealed our one will respond in faith and thanksgiving and worship.

Now to this conversation: to whatever degree people are hindered in their self-reflection regarding this position before God, to that extent they may seem to display less of what we as evangelicals would consider "normal" expressions of faith. Sometimes a church may fail to get out of the way so that the individuals can see that it is true that they, personally, as individuals, are before God and that Christ is their immediate reconcilor. But this is not to disqualify anyone from the name "Christian" it is only to suggest that all are in a sort of process, that before God, we are to honestly confess who we are, where we are, and accept that God has a solution to that problem. This is not a once for all, but a process that could (should) consume an entire life.

Help people find themselves in precisely the position that they are in, before God, in need of Christ. From there, God is available to them directly to help them know what to do...This is true of all Christians and all Churches participate in both the encouragement and the interference with this commission. I know many very profound and reflective catholics, and some very lifeless Evangelicals, but that does not matter, each person has her own responsibility for coming before God in humilty and honesty, and we are to show them the way...

If you don't see how this connects with the above conversation, feel free to follow up with questions or comments and I will try to clarify what I am driving at...

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK

graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78

Posted 9/25/2001 10:59 AM (GMT -6)

okay. I get what you're saying. it makes sense. so let's talk more about application

"Help people find themselves in precisely the position that they are in, before God, in need of Christ"

how does one do this? it's not like my friend has not heard the gospel, or scripture about knowing God...so how? or is it not my job...is it something God has to reveal by his Spirit....get what i'm asking?

GG

Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198

Posted 9/25/2001 11:43 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

okay. I get what you're saying. it makes sense. so let's talk more about application

"Help people find themselves in precisely the position that they are in, before God, in need of Christ"

how does one do this? it's not like my friend has not heard the gospel, or scripture about knowing God...so how? or is it not my job...is it something God has to reveal by his Spirit....get what i'm asking?

GG

Ask them to carefully examine every area of their life, looking for places that are not where God wants them to be. They're probably very much aware of the fact that they are--without God--imperfect. After careful examination, it shouldn't take them too long to realize that they are in need of God.

In His Grip,
Matt

"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28

trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 9/25/2001 12:18 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
graygirl: how does one do this? it's not like my friend has not heard the gospel, or scripture about knowing God...so how? or is it not my job...is it something God has to reveal by his Spirit....get what i'm asking?

You softly tell them to WAKE UP FROM SLUMBER. Satan has a way of lullabying Christians to sleep, "Go to sleep little Christian, go to sleep" is his song. We need to WAKE UP to the spiritual war that wages all around! Satan is a strategist and we need to be one too with the aide of the Holy Spirit!

What do ya think of that

trosie

Edited by - trosie on 09/25/2001 5:19:26 PM

graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78

Posted 9/25/2001 1:37 PM (GMT -6)

okay gotta write this quick...i'm suppose to be somewhere.....

AMEN trosie. That is the desire of my heart, the urgency in my spirit....it is. It's heartbreaking and deeply frustrating to me to see believer that just seem "out of it"...you know? you talk to them and they just agree with what i say (like a parrot) but having no fire, no passion.....aaaggghhh!

my concern with just telling them is two fold

first that just telling them and telling them makes me sound like a gong, really..ineffective at times..that's why i think after a while it has to be a move from God's Spirit...

secondly how do I tell them in love without condemnation and without sounding and looking like those crazy imitations of prophets we've all see in made for tv bible movies...because truth be told i am not always "on fire" (hate that term)...i have my seasons, as does any walk...and there have been times when i was a little dull and had run-ins with "on fire" believers...man, most of those have been damaging and condemning because of the way they communicated with me....

but with catholics, with all this, all that has been said in this convo...i feel like the battle is of a different nature...it's foundational and runs deep...as you can tell by some of the things people have pointed out.....

but yes, Amen. wake up...wake up.

gotta run....thanks everyone and keep writing as the thoughts come

God bless
GG

MrIndifference
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144

Posted 9/25/2001 3:22 PM (GMT -6)

Here is an idea for you. It is not quite so upfront, but I think it could be very effective. Just start talking to them about relationship. Tell them about your relationship with Christ. Then ask them about theirs. This way you are less apt to offend them by pointing fingers, yet at the same time it may be enough to get them to start thinking about the whole relationship aspect of christianity.

When you look at the whole structure of Catholicism, you notice that it is very community based. So, in theory, they should understand the need for relationship.

I don't know if it will work, but it is a thought and a possible place to start.

Mr I.

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 9/25/2001 3:48 PM (GMT -6)

I'd like to follwo on Mr. I's coat tails and build on his idea.

A Baptist college I know (not in Minnesota) has undertaken developing methods of interviewing propsective part-time faculty who are not "Evangelical" as they might feel Evangelicals ought to sound. One of the oldest and longest serving faculty is Prebyterian Church USA. They were, at the time, lucky to get a facutlty with a Yale sheepskin, or mayvbe from anywhere considering their state at the time. But "Doc" (not in Minnesota) said that had he been asked the questions that are asked now...quite probably he would not have been hired becasue they wouls not have understood his answer.

I did get hired there, and enjoyed teaching therre for a few years. I got hired becasue I knew how to sound, and how to let them understand what was inside of me. Earlier I had BARELY been hired at a Reformed college after talking about what I BELEVE and trying to demonstrate how my faith had taken root in my living. They expected to hear me say what WE BELIEVE and emphasize confession versus action. Ironically a graduate of THAT second college washed out of her interview at the Baptist college a month earlier than my interview because they on the committee did not perceive what really and truly was/is part of her relationship with Jesus. (My wife had been in a Bible study with her mother.)

Can happen.

PotOnWheel

(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")

Triskal
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198

Posted 9/25/2001 7:15 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

my concern with just telling them is two fold

first that just telling them and telling them makes me sound like a gong, really..ineffective at times..that's why i think after a while it has to be a move from God's Spirit...

There's no need to keep on bothering them with the same concerns every time you see them. A more effective approach would be to simply tell them you are there for them if they ever are struggling and need someone to talk to. Once that has been done, pray that God would use you to help point them towards Him. Most importantly, don't feel like it's your responsibility to keep their attention fixed on God. Let God work in them. Give Him room to work.

quote:

secondly how do I tell them in love without condemnation and without sounding and looking like those crazy imitations of prophets we've all see in made for tv bible movies...

Like I said before, let THEM approach YOU. You can first let them know that you're there for them if they ever need to talk. Once you've done that, just wait for them to come to you. If you notice them struggling and you feel God prompting you to talk to them, then feel free to ask them. But never try and force them to talk to you when you know it wouldn't help.

As long as you are focussed on pointing them to God, you need not worry about sounding condemning. If they're the one coming to you with the problem, then they'll already know there is something wrong. Just remember that your goal is not to put them down. Be loving in the way you talk to them. Don't act as if what they are telling you makes them a horrible person. Treat their problems and/or concerns as if you are perfectly capable of having the same problem they are having.

In His Grip,
Matt

"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28

Edited by - Triskal on 09/26/2001 12:21:19 AM

Edited by - Triskal on 09/26/2001 12:22:59 AM

faith
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 34

Posted 9/26/2001 4:37 AM (GMT -6)

I'm reading a really good book that might help with some of your questions -- Out of the Saltshaker and into the World by Rebecca Manley Pippert. I share your deep longing to wake up some of our Christian brothers and sisters. Maybe have a little discussion group on the life of Jesus, pray, and see what happens?

I've also been doing a lot of reading about Christians who are being persecuted in other parts of the world. Maybe sharing something of that would be a wake up call and lead to further discussions about Jesus. Bless you!

graygirl
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78

Posted 9/27/2001 6:07 AM (GMT -6)

Hi everyone.

I really appreciate all the feedback on this. I think the thing i feel led to do is more closet work (prayer) ..... I mean my friend knows the scriptures, the gospel,etc. as many catholics do....

Someone mentioned there is no point in being repetitive.another good point.

I just don't understand how the Spirit of the living God could be in someone through salvation (through their own profession) and yet there is no change. But that is a question that could be posed to both catholic and non catholics.

I think i need to pray and be there....in love try to point eveything back to the relationship aspect of the walk...

I also think with this particular friend i need to like matt said, Give God room to work.

We want to "save" those we love...we want to "awaken" those we love...but ultimatley we don't have the power to do that.

I can't be my friend's holy spirit....and i think i get that blurred at times.

Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817

Posted 9/27/2001 6:42 AM (GMT -6)

Good call greygirl. I think there is wisdom at work in your strategy. Pray about it, and be open to God's leading, but don't push where God isn't leading. Be bold in Love when God does give you something to say or do. Christian living is largely a matter of discernment...

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK

graygirl
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78

Posted 9/28/2001 10:05 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks....i really don't know what's going on though

....it just seemed like the only realistic option.....What you said is sooo key, waiting for God to lead....yes.

GG

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