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trosie
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   Posted 9/26/2001 8:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am posting this for a friend who requested that I do so here. I am looking forward to the various thoughts and responses on this "light" topic.

Are we in the end times? Have we entered yet into the tribulation period that the bible speaks about? How about the rapture --will there really be such an event in the future?

Just some "light" questions that I thought I'd throw out for y'all to ponder.
trosie

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whasssuuuppp
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   Posted 9/26/2001 8:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A literal rapture? I don't think so, though some would disagree with me...The main scriptural support people give for the rapture comes from I Thessalonians 4:13-18. I'll just quote vs. 17 here: "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever."

I've been told by some rather credible sources that the idea expressed here about "meeting the Lord in the air" was an ancient way of talking about a military victory. When a victorious army was coming home, others would go out of the city to meet them as they came in, and they would usher them into the city together as they celebrated the victory. And Paul is applying that imagery here with Christ. We, the bride of Christ, will meet the Lord in the air, and usher him into the earth, where he will reign forever.

Sound familiar? Someone help me out here, it's been almost 4 years since my class on eschatology...

One of the most butchered attempts I've ever seen to "prove" the rapture was by TBN's very own Jack Van Impy. If I remember right, he quoted Revelation 4:1 (only a small part of it)--"Come up hither," and claimed this was a reference to the rapture. The full verse says this, though: "After this I looked, and there in heaven a door stood open! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, 'Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.'"
It was kind of funny.

Eschatology's one of my favorite topics...looking forward to what others have to say.

WU
**********************

Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb
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might-be-don
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   Posted 9/27/2001 2:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've led a sheltered life until now... if not a literal "rapture", to what does the verses about two being in the field one taken and the other left refer.

don



A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "
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MrIndifference
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   Posted 9/27/2001 2:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A couple years ago, I brought it up in prayer, and I believe that God pointed to Revelations 2.7. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the chrurches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." It was as if He said for me to get myself into a right relationship with Him and simply to be prepared for what ever happens. Don't worry about tomorrow for todays worry's are enough for today.

Mr I.
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trosie
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   Posted 9/27/2001 10:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
might-be-don: I've led a sheltered life until now... if not a literal "rapture", to what does the verses about two being in the field one taken and the other left refer.


This is the same verse I keep hearing as I reflect on what Whasssuuupp has posted, as well as what I've understood a couple other WONDERFUL gentlemen to believe regarding the idea of a literal "rapture". I've come to understand that some people believe that basically the idea of a "literal" rapture is not biblical and that this idea was established only a little over 100 years ago.
It appears that they seem to all basically hold to what I quote Whasssuuuppp having said:
quote:
I've been told by some rather credible sources that the idea expressed here about "meeting the Lord in the air" was an ancient way of talking about a military victory...


In my naive, "sheltered" world I had no idea that there are some who hold to this belief regarding the rapture. The truth of the matter is that I FEAR this type of belief could be the thing that would catch the "ELECT" off guard and cause them to be easy prey to the deceit that the bible instructs us to be alert to regarding the anti-Christ. The bible tells us that EVEN the "elect" will be deceived in the last days by the "beast". If one doesn't believe in a literal rapture then couldn't they become deceived, when this anti-Christ comes on the scene with the peace that will follow, because they could more easily become convinced that the peace the "beast" is able to establish could be the "new heaven" in which the bible speaks of?

quote:
MrIndifference: It was as if He said for me to get myself into a right relationship with Him and simply to be prepared for what ever happens.


The bottom line truly is to be in right relation with God because NO ONE knows when their "end" will be. The victims of the Sept.11 tragedy certainly had no idea this was the day they were to meet their Savior. It concerns me to know that even some of the "elect" will be deceived by the peace and beauty this anti-Christ will come masked in and this idea that there will literally be no rapture might catch some off guard might it not?

quote:
MrIndifference: "Don't worry about tomorrow for todays worry's are enough for today."


THANK YOU AND AMEN! In the present state of our world it feels more important today than ever before to stay focused on task at hand and not get caught up in the "what if's..."

Thanks ya'll for your responses! I'd LOVE to hear more thoughts and reflections
trosie



Edited by - trosie on 09/28/2001 03:34:55 AM
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whasssuuuppp
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   Posted 9/28/2001 5:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Trosie,
A few comments--
1. There's many issues surrounding the end-times, including the rapture, the millenium, the antichrist, the nature of the book of Revelation, etc. They do all relate, but they are also separate. You seem to equate the idea of there being no literal rapture (what I hold to) with there also being no literal anitchrist. I don't think the second idea necessarily follows from the first.

2. In addition, you also said this:
quote:
If one doesn't believe in a literal rapture then couldn't they become deceived, when this anti-Christ comes on the scene with the peace that will follow, because they could more easily become convinced that the peace the "beast" is able to establish could be the "new heaven" in which the bible speaks of?

Now this is getting into some ideas about the millenium, I think. Here there are basically three (3!!!) views: premillenialism, postmillenialism, and amillenialism. (to echo you, we need a theological dictionary on this site!). Premillenialism is probably the idea that most people are most familiar with--I'm pretty sure it's the view espoused in the Left Behind series, by folks like Hal Lindsay, and most of evangelicalism. In general, this view has become popular only in the past 150 years. It holds that the world is getting worse and worse and worse, and that at some point Christ will return and establish the millenial reign on earth.

Postmillenialism fell out of favor shortly after the Civil war (right when premillenialism started gaining popularity). It is the idea that the world is getting better and better, basically that we are "ushering" the millenium in, and that Christ will return after this millenium has been established. People thought the Civil war would basically end evil in the world, but as we know, those were false expectations.

Amillenialism (I hold to this, too. Are you surprised?) holds that the idea of the millenium in the Bible is not supposed to be taken literally. Read up on it if you want.

So...I'm not sure what "peace" you're talking about above, if it's from a premillenial or postmillenial perspective....oops need to go. Have class. I'll write more later.

WU
*********************

Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 9/28/2001 12:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.


quote:
(From the above link... From his name one might guess that the author did not grow up in the American Midwest, or even Lake Wobegon. )

Time and the Signs of the End
....by Fr Paul Nadim Tarazi

October 2, 1999
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The proclivity among Christians to think of, if not compute, the end of time(s) is rooted in a misconception of what scripture is all about. More specifically, the misunderstanding is linked to our assumption that, since an event takes place in time, we should be able to approach it chronologically, that is to say, assume that it has a yesterday, a today, and a tomorrow. We are so stuck in this mentality that we unwittingly use this terminology even when dealing with what we call eternity: we refer to it as being "before" creation and "after" the end of time. We do not seem to realize that according to the Bible time was created (Gen 1:3-5) and, consequently, we may only use the concept of "before" or "after" within the reality of time.

There is no need here to enter into the reasons behind our enslavement to a particular concept of time. Enslavement, nonetheless, it is. Indeed, we relate many of our daily experiences to a completely different kind of concept of time, and as my reader will momentarily realize, it is this way of dealing with time that rules our life more than the one I spoke of earlier. Take, for instance, a baseball game or a tennis match. Each happens within time, yet it is not bound by it. Time does not function as the decisive factor in the reality of these events, although they are indeed events within time. Recall the saying about a baseball game, that, "It ain¹t over Œtil it¹s over": a game or a match is defined by its content, not its duration.

The same applies to an event so central in and to American life: the court case or law suit. No one, I am sure, is going to deny its reality, and yet time in the court is eminently irrelevant, immaterial. Whether one is dealing with the individual session or the entire case, the case is determined by the content of the proceedings, not by when they take place or how long they last. An individual session starts when the judge enters and declares that it is open or resumed, and the same session is adjourned when the judge says so. The time elapsed between sessions can be a couple of hours, days, or even weeks or months. A given court case can go on for years, and yet it does not mean that the discussion lasted years; in fact, the actual time spent in court may amount to a limited number of hours. What this means is that time is not a factor in the definition of a court case. Even more: it is the case itself that becomes a factor in understanding the length or shortness of the "elapsed" time. It is the difficulty of the case that sometimes makes it require more "elapsed" time, i.e., time outside the sessions. A more complex case can take a much longer "elapsed" time than an easier one, but not necessarily more time in court sessions. And, ultimately, "down the road" of history, it is the content itself of the case sessions that gives value to the time linked with them.

Holidays can serve as examples of the same principle. The Second Continental Congress met in Philadelphia and adopted the Declaration of Independence on July 4th, 1776, and today we celebrate every July 4 as "Independence Day." But the text of the Declaration was not written in one day. And the 13 colonies were hardly "independent" the moment Congress adopted it. The whole matter -- including the date itself -- would have been forgotten had the war been lost or if the Constitution had not finally been adopted finalizing the creation of a new nation eleven years later. Consequently, it is only by removing time as a decisive factor in understanding these events that we can say that the "event" of the American Revolution truly "took place" in Philadelphia¹s "Independence Hall." It is what happened there, twice, that gave meaning to what happened out on the streets. Thus, not only was the "elapsed" time not at all a factor -- the sessions could have lasted more or less -- but it actually is the event that gave a new meaning to time by making out of an otherwise ordinary calendar day (July 4th) or year (1776) a reality in and of itself. When these two numbers reach an American ear, they have a meaning that has nothing to do with numbers or dates or time.

All this shows that what we perceive as reality is determined as much by the way we perceive it as by the reality itself. Put otherwise, what happens "out there in the open" is not reality for us until and unless it is relayed to us in words, and those words create the framework in which we perceive the event. Without that framework any given event would effectively cease to exist; it would be as if the event had never happened, since without the words that relay it to us the knowledge or memory of it would die. In other words, the effective survival, and thus the reality, of an event lies in its being relayed through the word. Contrary to the popular assumption, then, it is the word that is the foundation of the event so far as our knowledge of the event is concerned, and not vice-versa. If things do not seem so, it is because we have, of late, grown accustomed to being "privy" to events through the media of the photograph or videotape. However, this is a wrong impression, since photographs and videotape are virtually always accompanied with a commenting word to avoid any misinterpretation of the event.

But, even in this "video" world of ours, the "court" reality I referred to at the beginning remains on the level of the word. In a court, it is the verdict, and nothing else, that counts in determining the outcome, and thus the meaning, of what happened. And the verdict is oral and/or written, i.e., a "word." The importance of this example lies in the fact that in "biblical times" all recorded expressions took place in a court setting. I said "recorded" expressions to underscore the fact that these are the only ones that reached us and thus we are aware of, i.e., the only ones we can actually speak of. Any other expressions are simply a figment of our mind, imaginary, unreal. But how is it that all such expressions, and thus, realities, are "court" realities?

In the Ancient Near East the king was the sole authority in his city, reflecting the authority of the deity whom he represented. The earlier cities did not have streets; at the entrance there was an open area, the forum, the market place where citizens and visitors gathered to take care of their daily business, mainly bartering. The forum lay in front of the two main buildings of the city, the temple and the palace, the first being the deity¹s house, the second the king¹s. Actually these two buildings functioned as a complex since the temple was the king¹s shrine. Thus, everything in the city took place "before the eyes" of the king who was thus "all-seeing." Put otherwise, in those times matters did not need be "brought to the fore" (English "fore" comes from forum); they always were "in the fore." Thus, the king functioned as the judge; so did the deity. Their throne was first and foremost a "throne of justice and righteousness."

On the other hand, the king and his palace as the sole authority issued the only valid version of what happened even in a battle far away, just as today the official version of the U.S. government is given by the official spokesman of the White House. Today, one might say, one can always get other versions from newspapers, radio, university professors, even individuals using the internet. However, in those times, writing was such a complex endeavor that it was undertaken only by the palace scribes. In other words, the only recorded statements expressed the official (royal) viewpoint.

When one combines these two features, then one understands how any reality was a court reality: it was either a lawsuit or a verdict. This is precisely how one finds the prophetic literature cast, with few exceptions. Indeed, the divine words reflect the court background: God is either the judge or the prosecutor or the plaintiff. The rest of the Bible was woven on the basis of and around the prophetic teachings. The Pentateuch is cast as the story of God first judging Pharaoh and delivering his people; then bringing this same people before his mountain throne where he proclaims his law by which he will judge them during their sojourn around his cities of Jerusalem or Samaria. In their turn, the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings are replete with passages where the people or the kings fall under God¹s judgment and verdict. Thus, in the Bible whenever God is the subject of the story -- and he always is -- then he is the judge. By the same token, all the biblical events actually take place in his forum, "before his eyes," and not "out there," as we have grown accustomed to think.

The corollary of the preceding is that whenever the Bible speaks of God¹s coming, it is referring to his coming to sit on his throne of justice. To understand the matter, one is to compare it with the coming of the judge in a court of law. Although it happens at a certain time, it does not happen "in time," i.e., one cannot calculate the time when it will happen. The court is in session whenever the judge has come; the judge does not come at the time of the session. It is his coming that defines the time, not vice-versa. But if so, then one will never know when God is coming; it is only when he has come that one realizes that he has come. But then it is too late; hence, the parable of the Lord¹s coming as the thief¹s.

What about the signs? These are accompanying, not preceding, signs. Were they indeed preceding, then they would not be signs. Even more: one could be fooled. Hence again the Lord¹s cautionary statements that we not be "led astray." The signs function as the clerk of the court who heralds the entrance of the judge into the courtroom. There is no functional time between the announcement and the procession of the judge. The attendees¹ standing up is also a sign of the judge¹s entrance, but their rising can hardly be considered as a sign that would allow anyone to take action or prepare oneself. A sign is not a countdown; a countdown can stop at the last second as often happens at the launching of a rocket or a space shuttle. Notice how, throughout the 20th century, people who have considered the signs as the beginning of a countdown have been fooled time and again. A sign is rather the assurance that what has all along been expected has come. The sign is (end) news: good news for those who believed the one who had forewarned that a certain event would pass and readied themselves for it, and bad news for those who did not believe, or believed and did not heed. When the sign is there, it is already too late for anyone or anything.

But if it is so, then why mention signs at all? Simply because the signs point backward, not forward. They trigger in our minds the words of the one who had foretold the coming event and thus invites us to realize, not that the event is taking place -- this is pure tautology: something is happening because it is happening -- but rather that the prophet who uttered those words is indeed truthful:

...From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch
...becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that
...summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking
...place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly,
...I say to you, this generation will not pass away before
...all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass
...away, but my words will not pass away (Mk 13:28-31).

And if he is truthful, then the judgment about to hit us, for good or for bad, is not only just, but also well deserved. Therefore, we are to watch, not with the intent of computing the time of the end, but rather that we not fall under condemnation for having fallen asleep and thus for not having watched:

...But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the
...angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Take
...heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
...It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home
...and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and
...commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. Watch therefore
...-- for you do not know when the master of the house will come,
...in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the
...morning -- lest he come suddenly and find you asleep. And what
...I say to you I say to all: Watch (Mk 13:32-37).

---------------------------------------------
Fr Paul Nadim Tarazi is Professor of Old Testament at St Vladimir's Seminary.
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GregBoyd
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   Posted 9/29/2001 10:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Trosie and company:

One of the things that shocked me the most when I went to Seminary was that the eschatology I had been given was almost unheard of throughout Church history up until the early 19th century. This include a literal "rapture." A few people have argued that one or two people MAY have alluded to it in the early church (but the allusions are VERY opaque), but on the whole the traditional Church has NOT held to this view. It began in Scotland in the early 19th century. A peasant girl got some "visions" about the end times and started preaching a literal rapture. Most thought the idea absurd, but a few noteworthy people accepted it (the Evangelist Darby being the most noteworthy).

The teaching spread in fringe circles in Europe and especially in America. (America was a hotbed of eschatological fervor at the time). It remained a minor view until the early part of the 20 th century when the Fundamentalist movement pretty much canonized it. Most who come out of Fundamamentalist circles are unaware how "new" their view is. This is not to say the view is not "true": just that it is "new."

Now, about the "one taken and one left behind" -- Read the passage in the Synoptic WITHOUT the assumption of a secret "rapture" and see what you come away with. Throughout most Church history -- and this is still the majority view of critical NT scholars today -- the one "taken" was not the fortune one (viz. who got raptured) but the one who got stolen, taken away from their family, taken into captivity, taken to execution.

For my two cents, I think all this makes about as much difference as whether I shall die by a car crash or luekemia, and whether it will be on a Tuesday afternoon or Friday evening. I don't care. I just know it could be at any minute, so I shall live TODAY likes it's my last.

Still, its fun to discover that beliefs you assumed were held by everyone actually have been held by very few.

Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul
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Springs
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   Posted 9/30/2001 1:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Years ago I was listening to Dave Johnson on the radio going verse by verse through Matthew. I anxiously awaited the day he would exegete chapter 24:28 "For whereso ever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

The notes in my bible said it was talking about dead bodies and vultures, but I wanted to hear what he had to say about it cause in the book of Luke it is the verse that Christ uses to answer the disciples question as to the meaning of these verses;

Lk 17:34 "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35:Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be int he field; the one shall be taken and the other left.
37 and they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them. Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

(I was into eschatology back then)

Well, when he finally got there this is what he said, "I have no idea what that means."
arghhh! I couldn't believe it! I said to God, "Hey, what's up?! You said the Holy Spirit would explain all things!" I'm asking you now point blank what do these verses mean?!"

First he asked if I would be willing to lay down all my preconceptions (premillinial, mid-trib rapture). I agreed. Then he said, "the one that got left was the blessed one." I got the idea of two people being in bed sick, one got well, one didn't.

In the book of Mathew these verses about one being taken and one left are in the midst of verses on God's judgement coming with the return of Christ.

Sometimes it is good to be left in bed. Usually it is good to be left in your field, or at your grinding. I think if any of us were 'taken'from our jobs in the middle of the day, our families would suffer.

just a thought,
Springs

Nature's first green is gold. -Frost
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