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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
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yankee551
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 22
| Posted 9/27/2001 8:16 PM (GMT -6) |   | Dear Mr. Hill,
I'm curious to know how willing other EVANGELICAL churches and christians in your area (who advocate the traditional view of the trinity) are willing to extend the right hand of fellowship to you, your church, and the folks who make up the church you pastor. How about the NONDENOMINATIONAL EVANGELICAL churches in your area? If you were NOT an
advocate of the OPEN VIEW OF GOD but were still an advocate of your alternate view of the GODHEAD, to what extent do you feel they would be more willing to extend the right hand of fellowship? To put it more simply, to what extent does your belief pertaining to the GODHEAD (by itself and not combined with other of your beliefs) frighten EVANGELICALS away from extending the right hand of fellowship to you and your congregation?
Sincerly,
Yankee
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 10/27/2001 8:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Yankee,
I don’t know what you are talking about. The Bible clearly shows us repeatedly that there is only one God. 1 Co 8:6 says, “yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.” This verse is showing God as He is worshipped and as He redeems. But it also seems to show that there is only one God and another person, Jesus Christ. But, who, then, is Jesus Christ, the Word, the Son? Is He God? There are a number of reasons why we must say, yes, He is God. The first is found in John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” However, the New World Translation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses says, “and the Word was a god.” Charles T. Russell, their founder wrote “the Logos was a God.” He continued, “This is the literal translation of the Greek, as can be readily confirmed by anyone, whether a Greek scholar or not. The Greek article ho precedes the first word ‘God,’ in this verse, and does not precede the second word ‘God.’ . . . The entire verse therefore reads – ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [ho theos] the God, and the Word was [theos] a God. The same was in the beginning with [ho theos] the God.’”
This an inaccurate statement. The absence of the article does not make it a god rather than God as he and they say? 2 Co 4:4 shows this: “whose minds the god [ho theos] of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them,” it says the god [ho theos], but that god is not almighty God, it is satan.
Let’s look at the rest of John 1 and see how [theos], God, is handled. Verse 2, “He was in a beginning with the God (ton theon).” Verse 13, “not of a will of a man but of a god (theou), they were born.” Verse 18, “No one has seen a god (theon), ever.”
If John 1:1 said that the Word was a god rather than God, there would be two Gods even if one were inferior to the other. The Bible clearly states that this is not the case. Isaiah 44 & 45 repeatedly say there is only one God! For example Isaiah 44:24 says, “Thus says the LORD [Jehovah], your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: ‘I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.’” If the Word were not God, then John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16 would contradict this statement because they show that “by Him all things were created . . . through Him and for Him.” Because the Son is God, these Scriptures do not contradict Isaiah.
When He, the Son, came and talked to Abraham in Genesis 18:1, He appeared to Abraham as a man. The two angels went down to Sodom (18:16-19:1). What did Jehovah the Son do? The LORD [Jehovah] went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham” (18:33). “Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens” (19:24). Here, we have two manifestations of Jehovah at the same time. The first, Jehovah the Son, refers to the one who was seen by Abraham. He rained down brimstone and fire from Jehovah, the Father, out of heaven. The first Jehovah was actually seen by men! Jehovah the Son was seen.
But do we have the right to say this? Let’s look at this more carefully. In Phi 2:6-8, it gives us information about the Son. “Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.” Notice, He was in the form of God. He was God. The form belonged to God. He then left that form and took another form. Yet, He was still God according to John 20:28, “And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou) It is interesting that both Lord and God have the article here. Also, why didn’t Christ correct Thomas if he was wrong in calling Him God?
Considering the word “form” as found here, and in Gen 1:26, He made man in the likeness of that form which belonged to God. He made “man in Our [plural] image, according to Our [plural] likeness.” This was the likeness or image that God (the Son) first created according to Col 1:15, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” This image was also called, “the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev 3:14). He, God (as the Son), then indwelled this image that belonged to Him and created everything else (Col 1:16). Then, He made man in its likeness. When God was in this image, apparently man could see Him without fear of being destroyed. When it says that no one has ever seen God, we see from Scripture (John 6:46) that it means the Father can’t be seen. The Son shows and explains the Father (John 14:9; 1:18). All they could see of the invisible God (the Father) was shown in Jesus Christ the Son.
We find that the Word who is God, was not only seen by Abraham and the apostles, but He was also seen by Moses. In Ex 24:9-11, we see that they saw God and lived to tell about it. Ex 33:20 says, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” Therefore, the God whom they saw in Exodus 24 must have been God the Son. No one has seen the Father except God the Son, “He who is from God; He has seen the Father” (John 6:46).
Christ said, “Abraham rejoiced to see My day” (John 8:56). The Jews said He wasn’t even “fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham” (8:57)? Christ answered in 8:58, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then, they wanted to stone Him. Why? Because He was referring to Himself as God. The words “I AM” were the same words which the Septuagint used to translate the first “I AM” from the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14. God continued in verse 15, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’” Christ said it more pointedly than the translation shows. Literally John 8:58 is “Before Abraham came into existence, I Am.” The Jews knew He said He was God.
Later, John quoted Christ: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” This is used of God the Father as well as God the Son. Notice what it says in Rev 1:8,17; 2:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” 17 And when I saw Him [Christ], I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.” 2:8 And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, “These things says the First and the Last [Christ], who was dead, and came to life.” These same words were used by Jehovah in Isaiah 44:6-8,24: Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God. 8 Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.” 24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.” Who spread the heavens? Christ (John 1:3; Col 1:16,17)! Who is the Savior? Christ (Isa 45:5,6,18,21,22)!
When we look at another aspect of God, His knowledge, we know that He knows things infinitely. God alone knows everything. When the Son says, “As the Father knows Me,” how does the Father know the Son? In an infinite, complete way. Then He says, “even so I know the Father” (John 10:15). Christ knows the Father in the same way, infinitely, because He is God. The New World Translation mistranslates this passage. In fact, it doesn’t even make any sense. They translate it this way: 14 “I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep.” From Greek syntax we can see that this should be two sentences. Verse 15 is a new sentence.
There is only one God. But He manifests Himself in three ways – Father, Son, and Spirit. To show how true this is, let’s look at John 14. Christ is speaking. In verse 7 He says, “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” How can man see God and still live? We say that it was only as He manifested Himself as the Son (John 1:18; Heb 1:2-8). Then He said something almost incomprehensible. He said, verse 10, “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.” He not only has the Father in Him, but He is in the Father! As we look further in this chapter, we see either a great confusion on John’s part or a blurring of the persons of the Godhead in the unity of God. Since this is inspired by the Holy Spirit, I don't think John is confused. Notice verses John 14:17-26: “the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” According to this, the Holy Spirit will come to them. 18 “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.” But, according to this, the Son will come. 23 “Jesus answered and said to him, ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.’” According to this verse, the Father is coming. Let me repeat that, “We will come to him and make Our home with him.” At least two of the trinity will come. 26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”
Who dwelled with them (17)? Christ, but He says the Spirit. Who will come? The Spirit, but Christ says He will come (18). Now wait a minute! Who is coming? The Father, and the Son (23), and the Spirit (26). God is coming (came)! The trinity came! Wow!! Are you as confused as I am? Who really was to come according to John 14? All we can say is God was coming in every way – Father, Son, and Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes when both the Father and the Son come. This is why Christ said in John 10:30, “I and My Father are one.” So from this, we must say again, the Son is God. That’s why the Father says in Hebrews 1:8, “But to the Son He says: ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.”
When God manifests Himself as Father, Son, and Spirit, all three manifestations have different functions. The Father is highest and is the one who is mainly worshipped. John 14:28 reports this: “You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.”
But the Son is worshipped also, for the Father tells all the angels to worship Him. Hebrews 1:6, “But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: ‘Let all the angels of God worship Him.’” Every knee shall bow to Him. Phi 2:9-10, “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth.” This was prophesied in Isa 45:23: “I have sworn by Myself. The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.” Here we see again that Jehovah is equated to Christ.
The Son is always subject to the Father in function (John 14:28; 1 Co 15:28), but as deity He is equally God. In His humanity, He is human (1 Ti 2:5) so He can redeem man (Heb 2:14-18). Remember who the only Savior was back in Isaiah. It was Jehovah. Therefore, we can see again, Christ, the Savior, is Jehovah.
Further, we find that God the Father raised Christ from the dead. (Acts 2:24,32; 3:15,26; Rom 4:24; 6:4; 8:11; Col 2;12) But we find Christ saying that He would raise Himself, (John 10:17,18) “I will raise it up . . . But He was speaking of the temple of His body” (John 2:19,21). But it also says He was made alive by the Spirit. Therefore, we see the trinity in action in His resurrection.
The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3 records that “Peter said, ‘Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?” Then the 4th verse said, “Acts 5:4 “Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” If he lied to the Holy Spirit, and this is described as lying to God, then, the Holy Spirit is God.
Therefore, we must admit that God is beyond our finite comprehension, but shows us all that can be known about Him in His word and Jesus Christ. God became a man not only to redeem us but to show us who God is. We can look at Christ and see God’s attributes of love, passion, mercy, and readiness to change when man repents.
In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Bob Hill
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/28/2001 2:01 AM (GMT -6) | | The issue of Trinitarian position raised in my imagination due to a lack of prominance of the word "person" in bob's post has been answered by Doc's say. So, this queery of mine has been removed by me. Sorry I didn't understand, Bob.
(Bob's un-orthodox treatment of Baptism makes my antenna stay up.  )
PotOnWheel
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 10/28/2001 2:24:42 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/28/2001 2:11 AM (GMT -6) | | The issue of Trinitarian position raised in my imagination due to a lack of prominance of the word "person" in bob's post has been answered by Doc's say. So, this queery of mine has been removed by me. Sorry I didn't understand, Bob.
(Bob's un-orthodox treatment of Baptism makes my antenna stay up. )
PotOnWheel
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 10/28/2001 2:27:45 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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yankee551
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 22
| Posted 10/28/2001 2:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Bob,
First of all I would like to offer up unto you my sincere apology for having wrongly assummed that you taught something that you did not teach. Apparantly I made the mistake of misreading some statements that you made on your own web site that caused me to think that you believed that Jesus is the son of God but not God himself. Please forgive me for my error. I have always believed that Jesus is both the son of God and God as well. I have always considered myself a believer in the trinity. I enjoy reading your web site. I must try to be more careful in my reading so that I will not repeat a mistake like this again. I would also like to thank you for the responses you have given to the questions I have asked.
Sincerly,
Michael
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/28/2001 2:53 AM (GMT -6) | | The issue of Trinitarian position raised in my imagination due to a lack of prominance of the word "person" in bob's post has been answered by Doc's say. So, this queery of mine has been removed by me. Sorry I didn't understand, Bob.
(Bob's un-orthodox treatment of Baptism makes my antenna stay up. )
PotOnWheel
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 10/28/2001 2:28:45 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/28/2001 3:06 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't know where Yankee or POW or anyone got the suspicion that Bob Hill is not an orthodox trinitarian. POW, a modalist could never write the post Bob wrote. For one thing, Bob acknowledges that the "we" of Jn 14:23 involves at least the Father AND the Son coming into the believer. Modalist see "their" activity in successive terms.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/28/2001 9:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Doc. That was the clear answer that I wanted so badly.
Sorry to misunderstand you, Bob.
I will remove my above queries.
POW
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 10/28/2001 2:29:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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